Author Topic: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon  (Read 1152426 times)

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #40 on: 09/27/2007 01:36 am »
If Space-X succeeds they will be a low-end launch services provider cherry picking the business for customers they can handle.

If anything, the EELV business will become (perversely) more profitable for ULA (through service specialization). Wouldn't be surprised if off shore LV's are the losers if Space-X really works out. Few ULA customers make sense for early Space-X growth. Possibly some loss to Minotaur etc. Look at the services each of these companies provide - not the LV. Later on watch GTO launches on the manifest.

If they don't it will be a rich man's folly. No matter what, rather be in Space-X camp than Kistler - Space-X has something to work with.

Offline bad_astra

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #41 on: 09/27/2007 02:48 pm »
Once/If they have F9-Heavy they'll be competing well into EELV territory. DoD might stick with EELV's but in the future NASA might not. Anyway that's a long way off. For now I'll wait to see an F1 reach orbit.
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Offline MrTim

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #42 on: 09/28/2007 03:55 am »
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Seer - 24/9/2007  11:48 AM
Things I'm surprised to hear.
Musk can fund the COTS portion entirely from his own funds. Spacex employees will go up in the Dragon, but Musk won't be on the first one.
Don't hold it against him that he won't be an early Dragon flier. Many entrepreneurial companies will not allow their top people to do various things that seem dangerous (even if those things are quite safe). It's not only a concern that something might happen to the person; it goes a level deeper than that ( to perceptions ). Even if the company knows the activity is safe, it will sometimes worry that outside investors and/or business partners would be scared-off. When you have a dynamic person at the top of the company and some of the company image is tied to that individual there is always a concern that loss of that individual will remove energy and vision from the company. He might not have a board to answer to on this right now, but he must still behave in some ways with an eye on the future.

I would also point out that nobody ever held it against Lockheed that not only did their CEO not test-fly new company planes but even engineer Kelly Johnson did not do the test flights. It may sound odd, but generally test pilots are the first to fly new vehicles  ;)

Offline tnphysics

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #43 on: 09/28/2007 08:37 pm »
Of course. That's their job.

Offline tnphysics

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #44 on: 10/04/2007 12:05 am »
I hope that Dragon flies-manned.

And I hope that Falcon 9 Heavy can send it around the Moon.

Offline Avron

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #45 on: 10/05/2007 04:13 am »
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tnphysics - 3/10/2007  8:05 PM

I hope that Dragon flies-manned.

And I hope that Falcon 9 Heavy can send it around the Moon.


First we need to go around the earth.. I am eager to see that happen .. come on Spacex its time...  forget next year.. light the candle...  lest go..

Offline tnphysics

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #46 on: 10/05/2007 08:14 pm »
Yup.
Start small, but make sure you can grow.

Offline tnphysics

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #47 on: 10/09/2007 12:40 am »
Could a Centaur third stage be used with the Falcon 9 Heavy, above the current second stage?

The payload (probably an interplanetary spacecraft) would contain the mounting adapters and pay for, and provide, the Centaur.

Would there be any way to provide the needed LH2?

Online Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #48 on: 10/09/2007 08:07 pm »
Quote
tnphysics - 8/10/2007  8:40 PM

Could a Centaur third stage be used with the Falcon 9 Heavy, above the current second stage?

The payload (probably an interplanetary spacecraft) would contain the mounting adapters and pay for, and provide, the Centaur.

Would there be any way to provide the needed LH2?

i believe jim said in another thread that Centaur would be unnecessary on a Falcon (, and would nto happen since the two companies making both are rivals.

I have to admit though, I dont have a high opinion of the Centaur having read about the shuttle-centaur program.  From what I read, it was almost like a bomb in the payload bay, and also when delivered it was one of the worst quality products NASA dealt with, with even cigarette butts inside of it.

Online MKremer

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #49 on: 10/09/2007 11:09 pm »
Quote
Ronsmytheiii - 9/10/2007  3:07 PM

I have to admit though, I dont have a high opinion of the Centaur having read about the shuttle-centaur program.  From what I read, it was almost like a bomb in the payload bay,

Not the fault of the Centaur - fault NASA for wanting to launch a large stage inside the payload bay filled with LH2/LOX.

Quote
and also when delivered it was one of the worst quality products NASA dealt with, with even cigarette butts inside of it.
That was 40 years ago!
(Read "Taming Liquid Hydrogen: The Centaur Upper Stage Rocket, 1958-2002" online here: http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4230.pdf )


Offline Jim

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #50 on: 10/10/2007 12:32 am »
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Ronsmytheiii - 9/10/2007  4:07 PM


I have to admit though, I dont have a high opinion of the Centaur having read about the shuttle-centaur program.  From what I read, it was almost like a bomb in the payload bay, and also when delivered it was one of the worst quality products NASA dealt with, with even cigarette butts inside of it.

It is one of the best vehicles around.  It wasn't a bomb.  It was the wrong use of the vehicle in a manned system.  Also the book is rather biased and was written by some NASA people and not GD

history has shown that the  shuttle program wasn't so lily white either

Offline tnphysics

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #51 on: 10/13/2007 10:42 pm »
If the spacecraft failed to separate, could the combined Falcon 9 Stage 2/Dragon re-enter using the heat shield of stage 2? Since it is a reusable stage, it must have a heat shield.

Offline Jim

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #52 on: 10/13/2007 11:29 pm »
how would it be controlled and how would the parachute work.

But no, the second stage doesn't have a heat shield

Offline tnphysics

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #53 on: 10/13/2007 11:41 pm »
How can it be reused then?

Offline G-pit

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #54 on: 10/14/2007 04:20 am »
It won't be. Spacex was talking about maybe recovering the 1st stage to see what they can do with it, but only as a 'science experiment' and not as a mission objective. That may have only been for F-1 though. But for the 2nd stage, it would not survive re-entry and it would cover up the heat shield of the attached dragon module.

edit: dragon is meant to be reused. is that what you meant?
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Offline jongoff

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #55 on: 10/14/2007 05:23 am »
Quote
G-pit - 13/10/2007  9:20 PM

It won't be. Spacex was talking about maybe recovering the 1st stage to see what they can do with it, but only as a 'science experiment' and not as a mission objective. That may have only been for F-1 though. But for the 2nd stage, it would not survive re-entry and it would cover up the heat shield of the attached dragon module.

edit: dragon is meant to be reused. is that what you meant?

G-Pit,
They have said on several occasions, including recently, that they were intending on at least trying to recover the upper stage on Falcon IX.  Now, there's been some speculation on what exactly that all entails, and it is possible that I misunderstood what they were saying, but they've been saying it for a while.  Now, whether or not that idea actually comes all the way to fruition or not remains to be seen.

~Jon

Offline mr.columbus

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #56 on: 10/14/2007 06:56 am »
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jongoff - 14/10/2007  1:23 AM

Quote
G-pit - 13/10/2007  9:20 PM

It won't be. Spacex was talking about maybe recovering the 1st stage to see what they can do with it, but only as a 'science experiment' and not as a mission objective. That may have only been for F-1 though. But for the 2nd stage, it would not survive re-entry and it would cover up the heat shield of the attached dragon module.

edit: dragon is meant to be reused. is that what you meant?

G-Pit,
They have said on several occasions, including recently, that they were intending on at least trying to recover the upper stage on Falcon IX.  Now, there's been some speculation on what exactly that all entails, and it is possible that I misunderstood what they were saying, but they've been saying it for a while.  Now, whether or not that idea actually comes all the way to fruition or not remains to be seen.

~Jon

Gwenn Shotwell once (June 2007) explained that the second stage of the Falcon 9 will be fitted with a heat shield coating and parachutes in order to be able to recover it. This of course adds weight to the second stage dry mass and reduces payload capacity. They will not use recoverable second stages on their first Falcon 9 launches, but Gwenn indicated that "it's being looked into."

Offline clongton

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #57 on: 10/14/2007 12:43 pm »
Quote
G-pit - 14/10/2007  12:20 AM

It won't be. Spacex was talking about maybe recovering the 1st stage to see what they can do with it, but only as a 'science experiment' and not as a mission objective. That may have only been for F-1 though. But for the 2nd stage, it would not survive re-entry and it would cover up the heat shield of the attached dragon module.

edit: dragon is meant to be reused. is that what you meant?
My understanding is that recovering the 2nd stage is a development aspect, to examine it post-operation, not as an operational objective. While adding parachute(s) would certainly increases the mass, there is the possibility that if the mass of the empty stage is configured correctly, it could re-enter nozzle-first (almost mono-stable) and the shape of the nozzle would set up a shock boundary that would keep the plasma away from the rest of the lower part of the stage long enough for the stage to drop into the lower atmosphere where the chutes could deploy. This has been mentioned in the past but they have been completely silent on it for months now.
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Offline PurduesUSAFguy

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #58 on: 10/15/2007 02:31 am »
Quote
clongton - 14/10/2007  7:43 AM

Quote
G-pit - 14/10/2007  12:20 AM

It won't be. Spacex was talking about maybe recovering the 1st stage to see what they can do with it, but only as a 'science experiment' and not as a mission objective. That may have only been for F-1 though. But for the 2nd stage, it would not survive re-entry and it would cover up the heat shield of the attached dragon module.

edit: dragon is meant to be reused. is that what you meant?
My understanding is that recovering the 2nd stage is a development aspect, to examine it post-operation, not as an operational objective. While adding parachute(s) would certainly increases the mass, there is the possibility that if the mass of the empty stage is configured correctly, it could re-enter nozzle-first (almost mono-stable) and the shape of the nozzle would set up a shock boundary that would keep the plasma away from the rest of the lower part of the stage long enough for the stage to drop into the lower atmosphere where the chutes could deploy. This has been mentioned in the past but they have been completely silent on it for months now.

They might also feature a collapsible spike on the bottom of the second stage (like the one that deploys on the top of a Trident D5) that could deploy after second stage separation to move the shock cone away from the booster. Just an idea

Offline meiza

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Re: Elon Musk Q&A - Updates SpaceX status on Falcon and Dragon
« Reply #59 on: 10/15/2007 11:46 am »
I think the idea with Trident is that the spike is a drag reduction device. But if you put a drag reduction device in a re-entry vehicle, heating will get worse cause it will happen later in the ascent.
I don't know how much the shock separation would help, but I've heard that not enough to offset this.
This idea hs been looked at before.

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