Author Topic: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?  (Read 19492 times)

Offline GraphGuy

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #20 on: 09/24/2007 08:22 PM »
Obviously NASA should only send women and minorities for the first few flights to end the monopoly white men have had on lunar exploration.  And while we are at it, we should send anthropologists instead of fighter pilots and scientists to end the monopoly scientists and pilots have had on lunar exploration.

Rest assured once we make it to Mars all will be better!

Anyhow if I was riding a rocket to the moon I would hope that the person next to me was selected for ability and ability alone.  If people make mistakes other people may die as a result.

Offline clongton

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #21 on: 09/24/2007 08:25 PM »
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GraphGuy - 24/9/2007  4:22 PM

Obviously NASA should only send women and minorities for the first few flights to end the monopoly white men have had on lunar exploration.  And while we are at it, we should send anthropologists instead of fighter pilots and scientists to end the monopoly scientists and pilots have had on lunar exploration.

Rest assured once we make it to Mars all will be better!

Anyhow if I was riding a rocket to the moon I would hope that the person next to me was selected for ability and ability alone.  If people make mistakes other people may die as a result.
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Offline BeanEstimator

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #22 on: 09/24/2007 08:45 PM »
IMHO, keeping mass in mind...we shouldn't send 6ft tall, 180lb fighter pilots.  Send 4.5ft tall Japanese women that are trained scientists.  Save on mass and ego ;)

But as I hear people talk more and more about lunar, it seems apparent that the strategy should be  "lift as much as you can, one time, maximizing reuse"

In that case, send some obese people...skimp on the food (really skimp).  Send a TV crew.  Film the chaos and air it on FOX as "The biggest lunar loser".  NASA could make a killing if they got some of the ad $.  :laugh:

In all seriousness, I agree with the posters that state the astronauts should be selected on their skill and ability.  But since we all know gender (and politics for that matter) will play a role...let's at least try to play fair and put some ladies on the moon.  I'm fairly certain that would happen.  I thought there was a decent % female in the corps...anyone got numbers on the makeup?    

Just don't let 'em drive the rover.  Lord knows what kind of dents and dings will show up.
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Offline luke strawwalker

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #23 on: 09/25/2007 02:05 AM »
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GW_Simulations - 23/9/2007  2:23 PM

It is sexist to select women based on their gender, it is racist to select coloured people based on their skin colour. All astronauts should be treated equally, and selected on skill. You should not discriminate against the majority in order to protect the minority.

You would think so, wouldn't you??  Sounds perfectly reasonable and eminently logical.  However, here in the States we have this official insanity called 'affirmative action' and 'political correctness'.  The symptoms manifest themselves in certain groups of people, based either on their race or their gender, or whatever other means or manner of differentiating and seperating people, demanding special rights or privileges based on WHAT they are, not WHO they are or how talented or educated (or lack thereof) they may be.  The malady's sole treatment has been determined condescending pandering to the vocal wishes of said groups and their supporters, out of some sense of guilt over how their ancestors were treated or mistreated in the past, regardless of talent, education, or ability.  Common sense has NOTHING to do with it.  Sadly, talent and ability often has VERY LITTLE to do with it.  It comes down to a political decision made for political ends.  The more condescension and pandering is done for a group, the MORE pandering is expected by that group and every other group.  It even extends to a crime done to one person being 'worse' than the same crime done to another person of a different gender, race, sexual preference, etc.  It is insanity, but the inmates run the asylum over here...

God I hope there is someplace in this world more sane than things are here!!!!  JMHO!  OL JR :)
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Offline halkey

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #24 on: 09/25/2007 02:16 AM »
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GraphGuy - 24/9/2007  3:22 PM

Obviously NASA should only send women and minorities for the first few flights to end the monopoly white men have had on lunar exploration.  And while we are at it, we should send anthropologists instead of fighter pilots and scientists to end the monopoly scientists and pilots have had on lunar exploration.

The anthropologists intend to come back with a stunning, high definition documentary about the singing whalers on the moon.  You might also want to send a few marine biologists to the moon to help those lonely whalers find some whales to hunt.

Offline MKremer

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #25 on: 09/25/2007 02:45 AM »
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GraphGuy - 24/9/2007  3:22 PM

Obviously NASA should only send women and minorities for the first few flights to end the monopoly white men have had on lunar exploration.  And while we are at it, we should send anthropologists instead of fighter pilots and scientists to end the monopoly scientists and pilots have had on lunar exploration.

I'm guessing you're probably being cynical, but regardless, I haven't read any responses or arguments here that even hint that NASA needs to implement some form of "affirmative action" program for astronauts. I *have* been reading overall opinions/ideas merely about people in general.

I think what's being promoted is that any *human being* who has the desire and feels they can meet the qualifications should apply, and also that any facilities and privacy should be equal for any human onboard a spacecraft.

*Whoever* meets the qualifications should be selected with a blind eye towards any otherwise physical/genetic differences. Then *whoever* passes further testing and training qualifications should be the people available to fly, and should also be selected as needed by qualifications/evaluations only.

Offline jscott227

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #26 on: 09/25/2007 03:19 AM »
Quote
luke strawwalker - 24/9/2007  9:05 PM

Quote
GW_Simulations - 23/9/2007  2:23 PM

It is sexist to select women based on their gender, it is racist to select coloured people based on their skin colour. All astronauts should be treated equally, and selected on skill. You should not discriminate against the majority in order to protect the minority.

You would think so, wouldn't you??  Sounds perfectly reasonable and eminently logical.  However, here in the States we have this official insanity called 'affirmative action' and 'political correctness'.  The symptoms manifest themselves in certain groups of people, based either on their race or their gender, or whatever other means or manner of differentiating and seperating people, demanding special rights or privileges based on WHAT they are, not WHO they are or how talented or educated (or lack thereof) they may be.  The malady's sole treatment has been determined condescending pandering to the vocal wishes of said groups and their supporters, out of some sense of guilt over how their ancestors were treated or mistreated in the past, regardless of talent, education, or ability.  Common sense has NOTHING to do with it.  Sadly, talent and ability often has VERY LITTLE to do with it.  It comes down to a political decision made for political ends.  The more condescension and pandering is done for a group, the MORE pandering is expected by that group and every other group.  It even extends to a crime done to one person being 'worse' than the same crime done to another person of a different gender, race, sexual preference, etc.  It is insanity, but the inmates run the asylum over here...

God I hope there is someplace in this world more sane than things are here!!!!  JMHO!  OL JR :)
Extremely idealistic view of things. Of course in a perfect world no one would ever notice the race and/or gender of an astronaut. Only their abilities. Unfortunately, the world is far from perfect. Diversity, sadly, doesn't always happen without planning. The US practiced systematic exclusion since its beginnings. Only in its recent history has this begun to change. Or at least be "politically incorrect". These "insane" programs you so angrily speak of, are the result of our past. I for one believe ALL the astronauts are highly qualified for their missions. I feel very proud of the job NASA has done with diversity. I'm looking forward to the same when WE (and now I can mean "we" as in ANY American, unlike Apollo) return to the moon. I'm afraid we're still a century or two away from your world.

 BTW, the last time the term "coloured people" was popular you would never find any of them on a rocketship. Its politically correct to say "people of color".

Offline luke strawwalker

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #27 on: 09/25/2007 11:30 PM »
Quote
jscott227 - 24/9/2007  10:19 PM

Quote
luke strawwalker - 24/9/2007  9:05 PM

Quote
GW_Simulations - 23/9/2007  2:23 PM

It is sexist to select women based on their gender, it is racist to select coloured people based on their skin colour. All astronauts should be treated equally, and selected on skill. You should not discriminate against the majority in order to protect the minority.

You would think so, wouldn't you??  Sounds perfectly reasonable and eminently logical.  However, here in the States we have this official insanity called 'affirmative action' and 'political correctness'.  The symptoms manifest themselves in certain groups of people, based either on their race or their gender, or whatever other means or manner of differentiating and seperating people, demanding special rights or privileges based on WHAT they are, not WHO they are or how talented or educated (or lack thereof) they may be.  The malady's sole treatment has been determined condescending pandering to the vocal wishes of said groups and their supporters, out of some sense of guilt over how their ancestors were treated or mistreated in the past, regardless of talent, education, or ability.  Common sense has NOTHING to do with it.  Sadly, talent and ability often has VERY LITTLE to do with it.  It comes down to a political decision made for political ends.  The more condescension and pandering is done for a group, the MORE pandering is expected by that group and every other group.  It even extends to a crime done to one person being 'worse' than the same crime done to another person of a different gender, race, sexual preference, etc.  It is insanity, but the inmates run the asylum over here...

God I hope there is someplace in this world more sane than things are here!!!!  JMHO!  OL JR :)
Extremely idealistic view of things. Of course in a perfect world no one would ever notice the race and/or gender of an astronaut. Only their abilities. Unfortunately, the world is far from perfect. Diversity, sadly, doesn't always happen without planning. The US practiced systematic exclusion since its beginnings. Only in its recent history has this begun to change. Or at least be "politically incorrect". These "insane" programs you so angrily speak of, are the result of our past. I for one believe ALL the astronauts are highly qualified for their missions. I feel very proud of the job NASA has done with diversity. I'm looking forward to the same when WE (and now I can mean "we" as in ANY American, unlike Apollo) return to the moon. I'm afraid we're still a century or two away from your world.

 BTW, the last time the term "coloured people" was popular you would never find any of them on a rocketship. Its politically correct to say "people of color".

Yes and it will never get any better with attitudes like yours...  I'm not defending the mistakes of the past, far from it, but I see no need in making the same kind of mistakes in the opposite direction and calling that progress... If something is wrong, it's wrong, regardless of motivation!  OL JR :)
NO plan IS the plan...

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Offline jscott227

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #28 on: 09/26/2007 03:02 AM »
I guess our major disagreement is that, i just don't consider allocating slots for qualified candidates from diverse walks of life to be a mistake. Someday in the generations to come it won't matter. But today it does.
 And exactly what attitude did I display that will help prevent this?  

Offline BeanEstimator

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #29 on: 09/26/2007 08:52 PM »
We're whalers on the moon,
We carry a harpoon.
But there ain't no whales
So we tell tall tales
And sing our whaling tune.

Repeat!

I'm not against the "fighter pilots" but I don't quite understand why they would be choice #1, when the vehicle they are "flying" doesn't really need them to "fly".  I can, obviously, grasp the positives that pilots have experience with expensive government machinery, etc etc.  

If it's most qualified for the job, then let that guide your decision.  The CEV is quite different than the Shuttle, perhaps qualifications "for the job" should change with the vehicle and mission?
Note:  My posts are meant to discuss matters of public concern.  Posts and opinions are entirely my own and do not represent NASA, the government, or anyone else.

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Offline Jim

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #30 on: 09/26/2007 09:00 PM »
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BeanEstimator - 26/9/2007  4:52 PM

I'm not against the "fighter pilots" but I don't quite understand why they would be choice #1, when the vehicle they are "flying" doesn't really need them to "fly".


It flies just as much as Gemini and  Apollo which is operated like an aircraft which required pilots

And Gemini and Apollo flew like  shuttle  for all phases of flight except landing.  Notice I didn't say reentry because Gemini and Apollo were flown through entry.

The landing phase of the shuttle wasn't the only thing that required pilot skills and cockpit management

Offline bad_astra

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #31 on: 09/27/2007 03:37 PM »
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Gary - 27/9/2007  4:44 AM

Quote
clongton - 24/9/2007  8:47 PM

We should probably begin to phase out the term "manned" and begin using the word "crewed". :)

The word 'Man' has it's origins in Anglo-Saxon times and means 'person' rather than a specific gender. It is therefore correct to use manned in place of crewed.

However, I doubt history has much sway in these days of affirmitive action/positive discrimination (call it what you will).

Unless English speaking people go back to calling us Y chromosomed types weremen.
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Offline cpt palmer

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #32 on: 09/27/2007 08:15 PM »
as i said before that was my wifes opinion,not mine.every thing we hear about a "manned"mission usually its mars we're hearing about.i dont think we shoud go there wiyhout establishing some kind of lunar base of operations first,that woukd help train any astronaut whether thier female or male ,black or white ,american or not and so forth.it would be in EARTHS biggest interest to start out on the moon first then concentrate on mars and beyond,and stop all this hypocritical prejidice nonsense.it should be based on qualifications and expertice,if you have one and not the other then you can train for the rest.

Offline BeanEstimator

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #33 on: 10/02/2007 08:54 PM »

Quote
Jim - 26/9/2007  2:00 PM

It flies just as much as Gemini and  Apollo which is operated like an aircraft which required pilots

And Gemini and Apollo flew like  shuttle  for all phases of flight except landing.  Notice I didn't say reentry because Gemini and Apollo were flown through entry.

The landing phase of the shuttle wasn't the only thing that required pilot skills and cockpit management

I get it Jim.  I don't disagree that the fighter pilots bring considerable skills and qualifications to the table.  I guess my point is, if the vehicle has changed, and the mission, then the qualifications for astronauts should also change.

http://www.airspacemag.com/issues/2007/september/orion.php?page=1

The computer components are at the heart of a question on a lot of curious minds: How will future astronauts fly this wingless, cone-shaped, blunt-bottom capsule?

     

“The short answer is with a stick,” says Skip Hatfield, NASA’s director of the Orion program, smiling. “The long answer is with lots of automation and redundancy.”

 

It turns out that future astronauts largely will let Orion fly itself.

Seems to me that Orion will bring a heckuva lot more automation than either of the 2 previous capsules you mention.  The balance between human and computer seems to be swinging toward the computer.   Still you are right, the  FA-22 and others like it utilize a ton of automation as well.  It frees up the pilot to spend time on strategy and tactics, rather than looking at screens and flipping switches.

How much "flying" does Orion really do on an ISS mission?  A Lunar mission?  

I'm not qualified to answer the question, so I ask it to get a better of understanding of how much "time at the stick" our new pilots will receive in Orion.  

Another quote from the article:

Is there any resistance among fighter-pilots-turned-astronauts to taking Orion’s control systems away from humans?

 

“There’s no rub there,” says Dutton. “Our goal is to accomplish the mission. Software has a huge role to play. We’re interested in making the leap from the fighter pilot mindset. Spaceflight is exciting no matter what.”

Strike a balance between the need for a "fighter pilot" and the other qualifications needed for the mission.  That's all I'm saying.  (That and 6ft+ fighter pilots take up too much space, lol :P)  

Note:  My posts are meant to discuss matters of public concern.  Posts and opinions are entirely my own and do not represent NASA, the government, or anyone else.

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Offline Jim

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #34 on: 10/02/2007 10:43 PM »
Didn't say they had to be test or fighter pilots.

Offline GraphGuy

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #35 on: 10/03/2007 08:56 PM »
Quote
MKremer - 24/9/2007  9:45 PM

Quote
GraphGuy - 24/9/2007  3:22 PM

Obviously NASA should only send women and minorities for the first few flights to end the monopoly white men have had on lunar exploration.  And while we are at it, we should send anthropologists instead of fighter pilots and scientists to end the monopoly scientists and pilots have had on lunar exploration.

I'm guessing you're probably being cynical, but regardless, I haven't read any responses or arguments here that even hint that NASA needs to implement some form of "affirmative action" program for astronauts. I *have* been reading overall opinions/ideas merely about people in general.

I think what's being promoted is that any *human being* who has the desire and feels they can meet the qualifications should apply, and also that any facilities and privacy should be equal for any human onboard a spacecraft.

*Whoever* meets the qualifications should be selected with a blind eye towards any otherwise physical/genetic differences. Then *whoever* passes further testing and training qualifications should be the people available to fly, and should also be selected as needed by qualifications/evaluations only.

Any paragraph that starts with the word "Obviously" on this forum is most likely cynical.

As for the need to have actual pilot people in a CEV or lunar lander, a quick review of all the life/death decisions that Mr. Armstrong had to make while in space or approaching the moon will reaffirm that you need a pilot present specifically for when the software/hardware isn't working as intended.  People nowadays trust software too much (I write software- I know how brittle it can be).

As for the race/gender/whatever of future astronauts, I don't care.  Qualifications matter assuming that they can get along with their fellow astronauts.

Offline renclod

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #36 on: 10/04/2007 12:18 PM »
BeanEstimator
Quote
- 2/10/2007  11:54 PM

How much "flying" does Orion really do on ... a Lunar mission?  
Quite a bit, actually, in a contingency.

There are these "DRIVING REQUIREMENTS ON CEV GN&C CAPABILITY"
(20070005131_2007004869.pdf)

>> CV0471 The CEV shall provide for remote control and proximity and docking operations from the LSAM-AS for the Lunar Sortie and Lunar Outpost DRMs.<<

That should translate into: one of the four persons inside the Ascent Stage (the Orion's Pilot) , fresh back in lunar orbit after a week or more on the surface, now in zero-gee, his/her body in some restraint, his/her hand on a joystick and eyes on a colour monitor (or two) flyes the deserted Orion - by remote control - to a docking with the manned A.S.

The body rates of the A.S. may not be quite null at the moment and some other person (the LSAM's Pilot) may be struggling with this at the same time and the two pilots may coordinate by voice.

Quite a bit of "flying" Orion.


Offline oscar71

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RE: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #37 on: 10/14/2007 01:43 AM »
So much bigotry in this thread, I hope that humanity will not carry this stupidity onto other worlds.

Offline Namechange User

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Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #38 on: 10/14/2007 02:28 AM »
Actually, this is kind of a disaterous thread.  The answer is NASA will not integrate any sex, race, etc into Constellation.  The requirements reflect what a human can and must do period, regardless of what form or look their body takes on.
Enjoying viewing the forum a little better now by filtering certain users.

Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: How will NASA integrate women into lunar missions?
« Reply #39 on: 10/14/2007 07:08 AM »
Quote
OV-106 - 14/10/2007  3:28 AM

Actually, this is kind of a disaterous thread.
Thanks very much! :)

I have some sympathy for the idea that the crews for the lunar missions should be decided purely on the skills and talents of the individual astronauts concerned. However, it defies political reality. After all, all the astronauts on the first missions will be American, which is a political criteria imposed over and above 'skills and talents'.

An all-white crew will be politically unacceptable. Period. Any NASA management that proposed that - even if the four most skilled and talented candidates happened to be white - would shortly thereafter cease to be NASA management. Hopefully, the four most skilled and talented candidates will include ethnic minorities. But if not, someone will be passed over.

I suspect an all-female crew would also be politically unacceptable. However, there is a very small possibility that women won't perform as well as men on lunar missions. I have no reason to believe this is the case, and think it highly unlikely - but highly unlikely translates as small possibility. One-sixth g might have some strange, unanticipated effect on the female metabolism for example. Very unlikely, but many unanticipated things are thought so before they occur.

NASA management could decide that for the first flight, all unneccessary risks should be avoided. A stance based on crew safety.  I think they could just about sustain that stance vis a vis crew selection. But it would be a brave NASA man (as it will probably be a man!) who took that decision!

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