Author Topic: CEV Mock Up revealed  (Read 17891 times)

Offline Flightstar

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Offline STS Tony

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #1 on: 11/17/2005 09:04 PM »
Wow, that's inspiring (note the sarcasm).

Sorry, jsut don't think you can call that a space ship.

Offline Dobbins

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #2 on: 11/17/2005 09:29 PM »
Quote
STS Tony - 17/11/2005  5:04 PM

Wow, that's inspiring (note the sarcasm).

Sorry, jsut don't think you can call that a space ship.

It's a design that will almost certainly go into space, which makes it more of a space ship than those Dream Machine drawings everybody was raving over today on another thread.

I really get tired of the negativity of space plane buffs who constantly attack the CEV.

John B. Dobbins

Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #3 on: 11/17/2005 09:32 PM »
Quote
STS Tony - 17/11/2005  10:04 PM

Sorry, jsut don't think you can call that a space ship.
It will fly in space with a human crew. What more does it need to be a spaceship?

Offline Colby

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #4 on: 11/17/2005 09:35 PM »
Heaven forbid, it needs wings! People need to understand that it makes absolutely NO sense taking a spaceship to the Moon or Mars with wings. Period.
Colby

Offline Do Shuttles Dream

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #5 on: 11/17/2005 09:52 PM »
Why do the capsule fans always throw the wings argument at the people? I'm just worried that as soon as the Shuttle retires interest in NASA will fall through the floor.

Offline Dobbins

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #6 on: 11/17/2005 10:02 PM »
Quote
Do Shuttles Dream - 17/11/2005  5:52 PM

Why do the capsule fans always throw the wings argument at the people? I'm just worried that as soon as the Shuttle retires interest in NASA will fall through the floor.

Wings result in a huge increase in mass for a function that is only used in the last few minutes of a mission. They also increase the aerodynamic stresses during lift off, present an increased chance of a debris strike in space, and increased chances of an accident during docking.

As for interest in NASA the type of mission the Shuttle flys is something that decreases public interest. Most people find going into LEO over and over to be boring.

John B. Dobbins

Offline David AF

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #7 on: 11/17/2005 10:10 PM »
Shuttle missions are still high media events. The CEV, doing less than the Shuttle as the CLV, is bound to get less interest and have very little in the way of public interest and love like Orbiters have. Once there's a mission to the moon, that will get things rolling again in the public and media interest.
F-22 Raptor instructor

Offline Spacely

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #8 on: 11/17/2005 10:19 PM »
Obviously the repeated CEV flights in the 2012-2018 will get old, but I've got to think the public enthusiasm for the new ship will be pretty high, at least in the 2011-2014 timespan (and provided there aren't any big schedule slips). I believe there will be much excitement over A. The vehicle's safety. B. It's expandability, and C. The fact that it will be riding atop the tallest rock we've built since the Saturn V.

Offline Firestarter

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #9 on: 11/17/2005 11:09 PM »
It's bigger, that's for sure. It'll look a lot cooler when they show the flat LCD screens inside that'll give people a feel of new tech space travel.

Offline RedSky

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #10 on: 11/17/2005 11:59 PM »
Here are some shots posted elsewhere (on the CEV topic) of the Andrews Space mockup interior.  Its so close to the NASA version on the outside, perhaps the interior will be close, too.  Shows the LCD screens, etc.

http://www.andrews-space.com/content-photo.php?photoid=75
http://www.andrews-space.com/content-photo.php?photoid=78

One thing that looks a bit skimpy: the couches!  Are those just for the pilot's restraint in orbit... or do they expect to actually use those seats for launches (on an SRB yet!) and entrys?  My beach chair looks sturdier.  :o

Edit: I just also noticed... I hope the commander is left handed!  The stick controller is on the left.

Offline nacnud

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #11 on: 11/18/2005 12:02 AM »
Have you seen the CXV seats, there is even less to them! Hey if it works why not?

Offline Avron

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #12 on: 11/18/2005 03:12 AM »
Quote
Spacely - 17/11/2005  6:19 PM

Obviously the repeated CEV flights in the 2012-2018 will get old, but I've got to think the public enthusiasm for the new ship will be pretty high, at least in the 2011-2014 timespan (and provided there aren't any big schedule slips). I believe there will be much excitement over A. The vehicle's safety. B. It's expandability, and C. The fact that it will be riding atop the tallest rock we've built since the Saturn V.

I am not sure that it could drop... I can only see an increase in interest... If all goes well, people will take notice when the SDLV comes on line (I hope).. its sure to wake a few folks up... 125 MT is Heavy and powerfull..

Offline UK Shuttle Clan

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #13 on: 11/18/2005 10:39 AM »
No one is arguing the following:

Shuttle: LEO - multitasking
CLV: LEO - no multitasking
CEV: Moon

But do people honestly think interest is going to go up between 2010 and 2018? I don't.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #14 on: 11/18/2005 11:02 AM »
I think its hard to project how much interest in NASA will be lost after the Shuttle's retirement, but it should see some level of building up just before the Moon missions. There's a fear the media will undersell that "given we've done it before", and a lot of that will be tasked on NASA PR.

Shuttles have media interest on several levels, not all of them good.

Visually, they are stunning and that's a huge factor with the general public. They are the best visual soundbyte NASA has and that will be gone afte 2010. There was something like 2,600 media at STS-114, but some/a lot of them there to cover another potential disater, unfortunatly. Check out the line of questioning from the post-MMT conferences.

The way I'd approach the CEV is by dumbing it down for the general public and call it the "Moon Rocket" as much as possible. Class the CLV flights as tests for the Moon Rocket.

The CEV is going to do a lot more in terms of travel. Yes, it doesn't look much at all, but given most of the public don't know or care what a Shuttle can do or can't - and what a CEV can do or can't...it needs to be sold right.

Offline Dobbins

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #15 on: 11/18/2005 04:01 PM »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 18/11/2005  7:02 AM

I think its hard to project how much interest in NASA will be lost after the Shuttle's retirement, but it should see some level of building up just before the Moon missions. There's a fear the media will undersell that "given we've done it before", and a lot of that will be tasked on NASA PR.

Shuttles have media interest on several levels, not all of them good.

Visually, they are stunning and that's a huge factor with the general public. They are the best visual soundbyte NASA has and that will be gone afte 2010. There was something like 2,600 media at STS-114, but some/a lot of them there to cover another potential disater, unfortunatly. Check out the line of questioning from the post-MMT conferences.

The way I'd approach the CEV is by dumbing it down for the general public and call it the "Moon Rocket" as much as possible. Class the CLV flights as tests for the Moon Rocket.

The CEV is going to do a lot more in terms of travel. Yes, it doesn't look much at all, but given most of the public don't know or care what a Shuttle can do or can't - and what a CEV can do or can't...it needs to be sold right.

As far as public interest goes there was a lot of it for Shepard's ride in Freedom 7, but Grissom almost got ignored. There was a lot When Glenn orbited the Earth, and it fell off for the rest of Mercury. The first manned Gemini flight got a lot of attention and so did the second one with the first American spacewalk, the interest waned for the rest of the program. Apollo 8 with the first trip around the Moon got a lot of interest, Apollos 9 and 10 a lot less. Apollo 11 with the first Moon landing got heavy coverage, Apollo 12 less, and by Apollo 13 a lot of people didn't even realize we had a space ship on the way to the moon until the accident, then it got huge coverage. Apollo 14 got coverage as the first flight after the near tragedy of Apollo 13 and it had the additional advantage of having Al Shepard on board who was still an American hero from that first Mercury flight. The rest of the Apollos got little attention from the Press. The first Skylab mission with it's dramatic repair of the station got huge coverage, the next two didn't.

The Shuttle followed the same pattern. STS-1 got a lot of attention, the second mission less, and it wasn't long before a Shuttle could be flying and most of the public the bird was up. Sally Ride got a lot of attention as the first American woman in space, and that was about it until the Challenger accident. Since then the flights that have gotten a lot of attention were the two Return to Flight missions and the first Hubble repair mission. A lot of people didn't even realize that Columbia was up until it broke up.

Neither the Shuttle nor Capsules grab the public attention outside of the space buff community unless they are doing something novel, something different, something for the first time. The type of missions the Shuttle will be flying for the rest of the program aren't going to get a lot of attention after STS-121 RTF mission. Most of the public is about as interested in hauling a truss segment to the ISS as they are interested in a semi truck hauling a load of steel to a construction site.

The first flight of the CEV will get a lot of attention simply because it's something new. After that CEV flights to the ISS won't get any more, or any less notice than Shuttle flights to the ISS do. A Month long endurance CEV flight that broke the record for the longest flight by an independent space ship, as opposed to being on a space station, might get attention. A daring between the belts flight the flew between the lower and upper Van Allen Radiation belts would get a lot of attention. A beyond the Moon flight that flew an orbit higher than the Moon, higher than anyone has gone before would get a lot of attention.

There is one lesson that NASA's PAO needs to get through it's head. Quit overemphasizing science. There was huge interest in the space program at the time of Apollo 11 and the public asked what's next? NASA answered we are going to do science! The Astronauts are going to set up science experiments on the Moon and bring back samples for scientists to look at. Interest in the Moon program imploded after that. 30 years of talking about doing science hasn't returned it to anything near the levels of public interest it had in the 1960s.

I'm not saying that the science isn't important, it is. I'm saying that overemphasizing science is a huge public relations mistake. NASA has to talk about other aspects of the manned space program to capture the public imagination. Exploration is something the public is thrilled by, talk about exploring for the best site for future Moon Bases. Americans have a romantic attachment to the 49ers of the California Gold Rush, talk about Lunar prospecting when samples are picked up on the Moon instead of just talking about what the scientists want to do with them.

John B. Dobbins

Offline Dogsbd

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #16 on: 11/18/2005 06:43 PM »
Quote
David AF - 17/11/2005  6:10 PM

Shuttle missions are still high media events.

Only on a return to flight mission like STS114. Prior to Columbia I would bet good money that 9 out of 10 Americans could not tell you if a shuttle mission was in orbit or not at any given time.


Offline Spacely

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #17 on: 11/18/2005 06:56 PM »
When it comes to predicting how the media will treat future CEV flights, it's worth remembering that "the media" will most likely look radically different in 8-10 -- even five -- years time. Between blogs, message boards, talk radio, cable news, 24-hour news cycles, info-tainment, massive web portals, news aggregators, video-on-demand, and WiFi,  the entire concept of delivering information to the masses is undergoing a *seismic* shift. Whether this results in good or ill for the CEV program remains to be seen, but this shift nevertheless makes it quite difficult to project out our prior/current Shuttle/Media experiences to the future.

Offline Dobbins

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #18 on: 11/18/2005 07:29 PM »
Quote
Spacely - 18/11/2005  2:56 PM

When it comes to predicting how the media will treat future CEV flights, it's worth remembering that "the media" will most likely look radically different in 8-10 -- even five -- years time. Between blogs, message boards, talk radio, cable news, 24-hour news cycles, info-tainment, massive web portals, news aggregators, video-on-demand, and WiFi,  the entire concept of delivering information to the masses is undergoing a *seismic* shift. Whether this results in good or ill for the CEV program remains to be seen, but this shift nevertheless makes it quite difficult to project out our prior/current Shuttle/Media experiences to the future.

The trend in the media has been towards specialization. This forum is an example of that, however do not forget one thing. The only people who are reading this are people who already have an interest in space exploration. Everything that is said here or on other forums that are space related consists mainly of preaching to the choir.

The General interest media will still exist in 10 years, and it will still be the place where most people get their news. If they don't cover it, then most people won't know it happened and hundreds of blogs, websites, and forums that are mainly read by space enthusiasts isn't going to change that fact.

John B. Dobbins

Offline lmike

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #19 on: 11/19/2005 07:27 AM »
There are several ways to impress people.  This may not look like much to a casual observer, but if I saw *rows* of these things lined up on the factory floor in the pre-production stage in, say, 2009, I'd be hugely impressed.  (plus the launchers, of course) If Boeing/whathaveyou would be able to pump these things out and NASA launch 'em in huge quantities, due to its (advertised) lower production costs, that'd be an impressive feat to me.  Quantity has advantages of its own.

Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #20 on: 11/19/2005 10:50 AM »
The first flights to the Moon will get press coverage, especially - as is likely - there is a woman, or a member of a US ethnic minority on board. And if not on the first, there will be interest when a woman or ethinic minority individual is on board.

I agree, interest will wane after that, but that's not necessarily unhealthy.

You might get something like the Hubble effect - a picture every day. Quite a lot of those get into the newspapers - not for their scientific value, but because of their beauty. Opportunities on the Moon might be less, but there must be stunning scenes. Especially on the future, longer duration missions, NASA might want to consider having someone with an eye for photographic composition.

A human flight to an asteroid will get attention, and as for the first flights to Mars....you probably won't be able to read or watch about anything else!

Offline realtime

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Offline realtime

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #22 on: 11/19/2005 10:27 PM »
If NASA has any savvy at all, the moon missions will employ not just astronauts, but independent journalists as well.  What better way to keep the media involved than by involving the media?

In addition the technology will allow:

1. Live HD video in huge quantities.
2. Internet access: email, IM, blogs, store and forward video mail
3. Two-way video interviews (though with a 2.7 second round-trip time, there'll be a bit of talk-over)
4. Helmet cams
5. Telepresence -- sign up at nasa.gov for time to drive a lunar ROV from your living room.

It will be some of the most amazing news material ever.  It's all a matter of how it's sold.  If NASA props a bunch of dry grayhairs wearing lab coats and sliderules up in front of a camera and lets them drone on about science, then you can fuggedaboudit.  

But if it's sold as a searing adventure by photogenic professionals, then look for fantastic things happening, live at five!


Offline Avron

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #23 on: 11/20/2005 01:12 AM »
Quote
realtime - 19/11/2005  6:27 PM

If NASA has any savvy at all, the moon missions will employ not just astronauts, but independent journalists as well.  What better way to keep the media involved than by involving the media?

In addition the technology will allow:

1. Live HD video in huge quantities.
2. Internet access: email, IM, blogs, store and forward video mail
3. Two-way video interviews (though with a 2.7 second round-trip time, there'll be a bit of talk-over)
4. Helmet cams
5. Telepresence -- sign up at nasa.gov for time to drive a lunar ROV from your living room.

It will be some of the most amazing news material ever.  It's all a matter of how it's sold.  If NASA props a bunch of dry grayhairs wearing lab coats and sliderules up in front of a camera and lets them drone on about science, then you can fuggedaboudit.  

But if it's sold as a searing adventure by photogenic professionals, then look for fantastic things happening, live at five!


I vote we send Ben. :)

Offline realtime

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #24 on: 11/20/2005 03:02 AM »
Franson's more photogenic.  (Sorry Ben.)   :)


Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #25 on: 11/20/2005 07:43 AM »
Quote
realtime - 19/11/2005  11:27 PM

....the moon missions will employ not just astronauts, but independent journalists as well.
Journalist-astronauts? Interesting idea. Freelance journalists have been known to put a few years into a project, so might go for it, especially if they could write articles under their own bye-line during training, as well as the mission. Then there'd be the documentaries and post-career book deal. It would also look good on their cv if applying for some science correspondent position at a 'major news outlet'.  Let's make sure we send a science journalist mind (and there even some photogenic ones - Lucie Green for instance). Not only will it enable them to help with any experiments that need performing, but they'll be less likely to come up with the howlers we all wince at.

These will be missions of exploration, and exploration is partly about the poetry.

Quote
If NASA props a bunch of dry grayhairs wearing lab coats and sliderules up in front of a camera and lets them drone on about science, then you can fuggedaboudit.
Yes. I'm a science graduate, and interested in it, but even I find my mind wandering during some of those press conferences. Too wordy and detailed for the lay audience, and too simplistic for people like me.

Quote
But if it's sold as a searing adventure by photogenic professionals, then look for fantastic things happening, live at five!
Now, how can we design a space suit with a short skirt? ;)

Seriously though, you can tell that NASA was run by engineers, with latterly a large input from scientists. I'm not saying that those aren't important, or that ability is not a prime requirement for an astronaut, but presentation needs to be given its rightful place. NASA is competing for audience attention and approval (and budget, which comes to the same thing when the audience are US voters), and they need to properly consider how they can maximise this. Their web-site is poor (albeit much better than ESA's!), for example.

Offline lmike

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #26 on: 11/20/2005 08:21 AM »
All the suggestions are great.  The Human part of it should be emphasized.  Driving a rover, reading a lunar astronaut's blog, emailing, video conferences, how they deal with everyday's problems, just everyday stuff... , erm... do some cooking shows.  With gas.  (Methane?) Without encroaching on their privacy, 'course... And send Liv Tyler/Tom Hanks or other Hollywood folks up there.  Invent some lunar recreations.  Play lunar golf competitively.  The football... the Polar Super Bawl playoffs broadcast... Now, that'll draw in some crowds. ;)

Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #27 on: 11/20/2005 08:26 AM »
Quote
lmike - 20/11/2005  9:21 AM

... the Polar Super Bawl playoffs broadcast...
Bawl? Typo, freudian slip, or a comment on modern sport stars' emotional fragility? :)

Offline lmike

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #28 on: 11/20/2005 08:47 AM »
Quote
CuddlyRocket - 20/11/2005  3:26 AM

Quote
lmike - 20/11/2005  9:21 AM

... the Polar Super Bawl playoffs broadcast...
Bawl? Typo, freudian slip, or a comment on modern sport stars' emotional fragility? :)

All three! I admit.  It should read 'The Super Brawl' actually...  On the Moon no one can hear you scream... ;)

Offline darkenfast

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #29 on: 11/20/2005 09:10 AM »
Regarding the media, one big difference is that during the Apollo era, there were three American TV networks.  If something wasn't big enough it didn't get covered.  The days of nearly everyone sharing in a moment are pretty much gone.  This has both advantages and disadvantages, and NASA will want to play it carefully.  Personally, I find most of today's astronauts to be very effective communicators, and I have no doubt that we will get a lot of very effective coverage from the Moon.  Having four people there for a week (even on the early missions), will take some of the time-pressure off, and perhaps an end-of-day wrap-up broadcast will be popular.
Regarding the mock-ups, they are very basic "here's the shape, and here's some couches" jobs at the moment.  I wouldn't put too much into them, yet.  But they are fun.  The Andrew's CEV might be a bit hard to fly, with only a left-hand attitude controller (isn't that where the translation controller goes?)!

Offline Dobbins

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #30 on: 11/20/2005 09:56 AM »
My vote for a journalist is Ollie North, If they don't bring him back. :)

Why not a Journalist? NASA has been trying to send a Teacher up for 20 years, something I fully understand. I had a few that I would have loved to have strapped to the side of a rocket carrying a probe into deep space. :)

On a more serious note, yes we need a Journalist, and a good Photographer, and a Film Maker sent up om some missions. These people have the skills needed to describe the experience of space travel to the owner of the space program, John Q Public. He deserves a report on how his tax money is being spent in terms that he can understand. Some may think this is a waste of seats that should go to scientists, but there is more to space travel than just science and forgetting that limits public support for the space program. There is also a benefit of keeping John Q Public well informed and interested in how his space program is doing. It will make him more likely to fork over those engraved portraits of dead presidents that pay for the toys the scientists and engineers need.

John B. Dobbins

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #31 on: 11/20/2005 12:37 PM »
At this point I would like to give notice that I am more than willing to put myself forward ;)

Offline lmike

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #32 on: 11/20/2005 01:22 PM »
Well, you've got my vote.  Some honest and knowledgeable reportage.  FransonUK could go too, as far as I'm concerned...  (just searched back some, and whoa!)  I'm also available that week.  I can cook.  With gas.  Hope Mike Griffin is reading this... :D :) ;)

Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #33 on: 11/20/2005 02:11 PM »
Quote
lmike - 20/11/2005  2:22 PM

FransonUK could go too, as far as I'm concerned...  (just searched back some, and whoa!)
Ah! A chance to practice this search thingy. With motivation too.

Interesting thread. Quite contrary to general expectations of women interested in space, I thought.

Offline lmike

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #34 on: 11/20/2005 02:26 PM »
Quote
CuddlyRocket - 20/11/2005  9:11 AM

Quote
lmike - 20/11/2005  2:22 PM

FransonUK could go too, as far as I'm concerned...  (just searched back some, and whoa!)
Ah! A chance to practice this search thingy. With motivation too.

Interesting thread. Quite contrary to general expectations of women interested in space, I thought.

You got me... What motivation, pray tell?  Just to clarify... It's a name (or a moniker?) that came up in this thread.  I searched back (didn't even know about the 'she' thing) and that person made some great comments on the shuttle and other topics.

* Ah! And keep that snideness all to yourself, you're going to need it in life, son.

Offline FransonUK

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #35 on: 11/20/2005 04:25 PM »
I wondered why my ears were burning ;)
Don't ya wish your spaceship was hot like me

Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #36 on: 11/20/2005 05:44 PM »
Quote
lmike - 20/11/2005  3:26 PM
Ah! And keep that snideness all to yourself, you're going to need it in life, son.
Ah! - Used to express various emotions, such as satisfaction, surprise, delight, dislike, or pain (in my case, the first three - I actually was quite pleased to have a bona fide excuse to practise searching). Quite how I was being derogatory in a malicious, superior way, I'm not clear.

My post was meant to be light-hearted. It obviously did not come across to you as such, for which I apologise.

Offline lmike

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #37 on: 11/26/2005 08:49 AM »
Quote
FransonUK - 20/11/2005  11:25 AM

I wondered why my ears were burning ;)

I do apologize, if I, inadvertently, offended anyone.  The vagaries of Internet communication...

Offline Super George

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #38 on: 12/03/2005 11:26 PM »
I thought it was funny. I don't see anything wrong here. You should see what some message boards are like!  :o

Offline Super George

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #39 on: 12/03/2005 11:27 PM »
So do people think this mock-up will be what the module will be, or is there a chance this will change a slight amount?

Offline kraisee

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #40 on: 12/04/2005 06:29 AM »
Quote
Super George - 3/12/2005  7:27 PM

So do people think this mock-up will be what the module will be, or is there a chance this will change a slight amount?

I think that the Command Module of the CEV will appear externally pretty close to that mock-up.   I'm going to guess that we will see the sunken windows on the final craft, to give it a more distinct appearance, and not just looking like a tin can :)

The heat shield is anyone's guess at this point.   Andrews seem to think the shield needs a "buldge" in it to create an aerodynamic stabilization effect of some sorts, but I'm thinking there's a natural stabilisation effect caused by gravity as you start to slow down during re-entry anyway, and I wonder if a "bulge" on the shield might create hotter and colder areas on the shield.   Also, manufacturing a complex shape like that would be harder (thus more expensive) than a plain curved piece.

The insides of it  though - I'd happily bet that the final flight-ready craft we get is completely different to any of the mock-ups so far shown.

I think there will be some major changes over the course of the next few years as some current ideas are discarded altogether, and others are modifed to suit new understanding as the craft is developed.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Offline darkenfast

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #41 on: 12/04/2005 01:05 PM »
I think the Andrews mockup was totally conjectural on the inside.  It seemed to be more of a "see how many couches can fit" demonstrator than anything else (although interesting).  I think various systems will take up quite a bit more room than the Andrews model shows.   I've been playing around with various configurations, but most of them end up looking a lot like a big Apollo (normally 4 couches across, with two folding, more couches, if required, underneath in place of cargo boxes).

Does anyone remember the Mercury "landing bag"?  The whole heatshield dropped about 4 feet and there was an accordion shaped bag between it and the capsule body.  I like that approach because I think the CEV is going to have to be more careful about how many pieces it drops off on the way down, especially if it lands at Edwards.

Offline Dobbins

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #42 on: 12/04/2005 03:38 PM »
The JSC Mockup is going to be used to set the arrangement of interior components. They will be trying things out for a fit using foam core boxes at first. Until that is done any interior arrangements will remain nothing more than an educated guess.

I will however venture one guess about the way it will look on the inside. The area on the floor at the sides is where the slope will result in little "head room" is where equipment and storage will go. There will be bulkheads in front of this equipment and doors in the storage areas. This should result in an interior that has a smaller diameter at the floor level with bulkheads at a right angle to the floor and going up to meet the sloping bulkheads formed by the capsule shape at up to a meter from the floor.

John B. Dobbins

Offline darkenfast

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #43 on: 12/04/2005 10:50 PM »
That's exactly how my doodles keep turning out.  And that's pretty much how the Apollo interior was.  I end up with a "room" about 3m wide (across the couches), and about 3.5m from the lower hatch sill to the face of the equipment racks in the lower bay.  VERY roomy, compared to Apollo.  In one configuration, I have couches straight across, with the Commander and Pilot on the outside and two removable couches in the middle.  When the two center couches are folded in flight, the interior is very open. The other configuration has the Commander and Pilot on the inside, but seperated by an aisleway (between the hatch and the lower bay.  Two more couches go outside of these, and more towards the left-right center-line.  In this version, the couches would probably not be removable.   Center-of-gravity is a consideration.  I'm trying to offset the weight of the couches with equipment as in Apollo.   The area under the couches is for cargo boxes and/or additional couches.  FYI, I've reserved room for a zero-g toilet to the right of the lower bay!

Regardless, it'll be fun to see how close I get to what NASA decides!

Offline Dana

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #44 on: 12/05/2005 12:11 AM »
One thing I think they need to do at NASA is stop throwing around the acronyms when it comes to the vehicles. We know what a CEV or a SDLV is, but nobody else in the general public does. In the old days, the public would know what a Mercury, Gemini, or Apollo spacecraft was (what great, mythic names), or a Redstone, Atlas, Titan II, Saturn IB or Saturn V, or even Skylab. This is why the orbiters have names as well as OV designation.

"We're launching an STS mission with OV-104 today."

Oh...well...yipee-skip, good luck with that....

"We're launching Atlantis today."

Oohhh, the Space Shuttle! Cool!

I'm not sure even "Constellation" would pack the right wallop. (Makes me think of an aircraft carrier or the old Lockheed propliner.) It should be more like Ulysses, Hercules, etc. (I'm not up on my mythology, hel me out here. ;))

BTW somebody mentioned sending journalists, movie stars, filmmakers, etc. I think that's exactly the right idea. Everybody knows Tom Hanks loves space exploration; James Cameron has stated repeatedly that he's like to do a film in space....I'm sure the enthusiasm is there, but I have to wonder if the studios, agents, lawyers, and whatnot will balk at the thought of sticking Tom Hanks on top of a rocket. Remember when Lance Bass was trying to get a tourist flight to the ISS? What a double-edged sword: Sure, if it was successful, you would have introduced all of those young boy-band fans to spaceflight and generated great publicity and support, etc., but what if that happened to be the one Soyuz launch that finally experienced a major launch vehicle failure-How much support and publicity will you get (or want) from those fans after you've scattered little pieces of Lance Bass all over Kazakhstan? Losing Christa McAuliffe on a crew was a heart-punch enough, and at least John Glenn had once ridden a vehicle that was arguably even more dangerous....Does NASA really want to take the chance of blowing up Tom Hanks?

That said...I've got some journalism in my background-where do I sign up?:)

"Don't play dumb with me! You're not as good at it as I am!"-Col. Flagg

"'Second Place' is just the first loser."-Bobby Allison

Offline SRBseparama

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #45 on: 12/05/2005 12:41 AM »
Quote
Dana - 4/12/2005  7:11 PM

"We're launching an STS mission with OV-104 today."

Oh...well...yipee-skip, good luck with that....

"We're launching Atlantis today."

Oohhh, the Space Shuttle! Cool!


Totally agree. There needs to be some PR work to get this across to the public.

Offline gladiator1332

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #46 on: 12/05/2005 01:03 AM »
I'm pretty sure things will have to change. It is the only way to get the public to connect with this new spacecraft.

One great example are the MER's. If we just called them MER-1 and MER-2 they would seem like machines. But when we talk of Spirit and Oppurtunity, it's like we are talking about two living, breathing, things.

With STS-107...we mourned the loss of the crew, but we also mourned the loss of a great ship. Now hopefully there will be no need to shed tears over a CEV, however, who really cares about CEV-1, CEV-2....we need names. People love naming things...NASA should be allowing people to write in suggestions for names for the Program, the launcher, and eventually names for the spacecraft. We can always call it the CEV, however, they need personal names much like the Shuttle. Though it is the STS, we have names for the spacecraft.

Offline Davros

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #47 on: 12/05/2005 01:15 AM »
Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but will the CEVs be reusable?

I ask as if they are not, then you lose the alive factor the Orbiters have with the multiple missions and eventual respectful retirement.

We've seen here on this forum how the engineers note different personalities as they get older, such as Columbia always been a steady girl on the launch pads like the old lady she was and how Endeavour is a bit jumpy (whatever they meant by that).

You won't get that following of a named CEV if it's only going to be a one trip vehicle.

Offline nacnud

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #48 on: 12/05/2005 01:45 AM »
The reuseablity of the CEV depends on whether it will be cheaper to refurbish them or throw them away, I don't think anyone has numbers on that untill the final vendor is chosen.

Offline Dogsbd

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #49 on: 12/05/2005 01:55 AM »
And the reusability may change as the program goes forward, the first few launches maybe those craft are not reused at all and then later ones are used 3-4 times while even later craft, as more is learned about different systems etc., can be used 5-10 times or more. And then again a CEV used for a six month stay in lunar orbit may not be used again while one used for shorter lunar trips or to LEO only may be used multiple times. Only time will tell.


Offline realtime

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #50 on: 12/05/2005 02:56 AM »
I agree that there should be names, not acronyms.  This is discussed at length on another thread:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=785&posts=50#M11355


Offline lmike

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #51 on: 12/05/2005 02:59 AM »
Quote
Dana - 4/12/2005  7:11 PM
...Does NASA really want to take the chance of blowing up Tom Hanks?

Well, without undue levity, Tom Hanks has a chance every day to get roasted in his Porsche (or whatever he drives) like, say... James Dean.  Heck, John Travolta (another space maniac I believe) 'drives' his own personal B747 to work, if I'm not mistaken.  James Cameron dives in a Mir batisphere to some thousand feet to film the Titanic remains... A Martyr for the spaceflight, or a note in a local DMV report?  Hmmm.... a choice ;)  This is the point I think -- you want to glorify spaceflight, yet make it seem a 'safe' routine, like say, driving a car out to the office in the morning... (me driving on Californian freeways every freakin day, here ;) )  Besides, what an advertisment!  Even Tom Hanks is not afraid to ride the CEV! ;)

Offline Super George

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #52 on: 12/05/2005 03:23 AM »
Bruce Willis has said a few times that he's facinated by Shuttles since filming Armageddon. Send him up :)

Offline lmike

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #53 on: 12/05/2005 03:26 AM »
I think as far as the PR goes, the mission, and the people, not the craft have to be emphasized.  The craft is just a transportation means.  Being routine and robust is its strength.  Don't underestimate the audience (the ones who care), they'll understand.  As has been mentioned in this thread, what they *do* on the Moon WILL capture the audience, if presented right.

Technically, I think the capsule will look the same as in the photos. Plus, minus some details.

Offline realtime

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RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #54 on: 12/05/2005 04:05 AM »
Quote
lmike - 4/12/2005  11:26 PM

I think as far as the PR goes, the mission, and the people, not the craft have to be emphasized.  The craft is just a transportation means.  Being routine and robust is its strength.  Don't underestimate the audience (the ones who care), they'll understand.  As has been mentioned in this thread, what they *do* on the Moon WILL capture the audience, if presented right.

Technically, I think the capsule will look the same as in the photos. Plus, minus some details.
They all need to be emphasized.  Craft, people, mission.  It's a total package.  Too bad the craft looks like something out of the '60s and the people are for the most part straight-laced and boring.  I think they'd manage to reduce even the wildest adventure to a hum-drum monotonic patter.  That's why you need the movie stars and journalists and artists.

As Yogi Berra might say, "Routine is not exciting."  The audience who cares is too small -- it needs to be expanded beyond the geek crowd here and the military, or it won't be funded.


Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #55 on: 12/05/2005 12:32 PM »
Quote
Davros - 5/12/2005  2:15 AM

Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but will the CEVs be reusable?

I ask as if they are not, then you lose the alive factor the Orbiters have with the multiple missions and eventual respectful retirement.

We've seen here on this forum how the engineers note different personalities as they get older, such as Columbia always been a steady girl on the launch pads like the old lady she was and how Endeavour is a bit jumpy (whatever they meant by that).

You won't get that following of a named CEV if it's only going to be a one trip vehicle.
"The Eagle has landed."

But only once.

Agreed, you cannot get a following for a particular craft if it is only used once. But, it doesn't stop a lot of the other resonances. I suspect the name (if it has one) of the first craft back on the Moon will go down in the history books. For an Earth-analogue - who remembers Hurricanes Andrew, Katrina and Rita? They could have called them 1992/1, 2005/11 and 2005/17, but names are easier to remember, and more meaningful as part of cultural memory.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: CEV Mock Up revealed
« Reply #56 on: 12/05/2005 12:37 PM »
Quote
Super George - 5/12/2005  4:23 AM

Bruce Willis has said a few times that he's facinated by Shuttles since filming Armageddon. Send him up :)

Was that before or after an Orbiter Tech told him off for even considering touching Atlantis' TPS during filming in an OPF ;) Oil on fingers does not mix with TPS.

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