China to have new rockets

[Steven Pietrobon]

Thanks for posting that image of the CZ-9. I believe that's the first time that designation has been used for China's Moon rocket. The designation could come from the use of a 9 m core (like the CZ-5 has a 5 m core), but that could just be a coincidence. Scaling the diagram to the 5 m CZ-5, gives a diameter of only 7.25 m for the CZ-9, but there are large gaps between the core and the boosters, so I think the core is more likely to be 9 m, as was previously posted in this image below. Configuration of this earlier version of the CZ-9 is

4x3.35 m with 320 t kerolox boosters, each with one YF-650 (6.4 MN)
9 m 1756 t kerolox first stage with four YF-650 (25.5 MN total)
9 m 500 t hydrolox second stage with two YF-220 (4.3 MN total)

Total liftoff thrust is 51 MN, compared to Saturn V at 33.85 MN. Launch mass (excluding dry stage mass and payload) is 3536 t. The current version of CZ-9 has an additional (presumably hydrolox) third stage and looks to have two engines on each of the boosters, and possibly eight engines in the core (more engines on the core would have the core running out of propellant before the boosters). Assuming the same 51 MN initial thrust, this would give a thrust of 51/(4x2+8) = 3.19 MN for each engine (a YF-325), which is 2.7 times the thrust of the YF-120 used on the CZ-5. The third stage would be ideal for sending a Lunar Shenzhou and lander to the Moon.

So it looks like the Chinese are heading for an Apollo style architecture with a single (and impressive) big booster. The US currently needs two launchers of its SLS to do a similar mission, mainly due the large weight of Orion.

[malu5531]

Informative article on the new rockets, and some nice images from the CZ-5 factory as well as Hainan space launch complex;

http://www.americaspace.org/?p=22881

[Paul Howard]

Very sad to see Craig Covault demoted to writing on a small homemade blog site.

[HappyMartian]

Informative article on the new rockets, and some nice images from the CZ-5 factory as well as Hainan space launch complex;

http://www.americaspace.org/?p=22881

Yep, a great article and a lovely website!

[Lars_J]

So it looks like the Chinese are heading for an Apollo style architecture with a single (and impressive) big booster.

Yes, but when? We all know powerpoint engineering is cheap. And their pace isn't exactly blinding.

In the end, this could be no more than Nova, Ares V, and many other "paper rockets" that never flew once reality sunk in.

[Dalhousie]

Yes, but when? We all know powerpoint engineering is cheap. And their pace isn't exactly blinding.

In the end, this could be no more than Nova, Ares V, and many other "paper rockets" that never flew once reality sunk in.

We generally don't see Chinese paper rockets.

Record to date indicates that when it appears in the five year plan it will happen.

Barring unforeseen issues, my prediction is 10 years from now this will be on the pad or close to it.

[FinalFrontier]

So it looks like the Chinese are heading for an Apollo style architecture with a single (and impressive) big booster.

Yes, but when? We all know powerpoint engineering is cheap. And their pace isn't exactly blinding.

In the end, this could be no more than Nova, Ares V, and many other "paper rockets" that never flew once reality sunk in.

I don't see this as an Apollo architecture. The vehicle is planned to be significantly more powerful then Saturn V, the only reason you need something like that is if your planning on building a base there.

We'll see how far they get, this is going to be a very expensive undertaking. They will learn why we haven't gone back.

[Dalhousie]

We'll see how far they get, this is going to be a very expensive undertaking. They will learn why we haven't gone back.

The social context of Chinese lunar missions is utterly different to Apollo, which had a built in sunset clause, they may well have good reasons to keep going.

[Lurker Steve]

So it looks like the Chinese are heading for an Apollo style architecture with a single (and impressive) big booster.

Yes, but when? We all know powerpoint engineering is cheap. And their pace isn't exactly blinding.

In the end, this could be no more than Nova, Ares V, and many other "paper rockets" that never flew once reality sunk in.

I don't see this as an Apollo architecture. The vehicle is planned to be significantly more powerful then Saturn V, the only reason you need something like that is if your planning on building a base there.

We'll see how far they get, this is going to be a very expensive undertaking. They will learn why we haven't gone back.

They have much more money than the US. If they can afford to start developing stealth aircraft and aircraft carriers, then can afford a moon program.

[neilh]

They have much more money than the US.

::citation needed:: I can't figure out a single metric where Chinese spending exceeds the US's: space spending, overall government expenditures, overall government revenues, etc.

[Steven Pietrobon]

I don't see this as an Apollo architecture. The vehicle is planned to be significantly more powerful then Saturn V, the only reason you need something like that is if your planning on building a base there.

Saturn V could put 118 t into LEO. CZ-9 can put 130 t into LEO. That's only a 10% increase, with correspondingly similar increases of what is capable of being put on the Moon. By Apollo style architecture I meant having a single launch of Shenzhou and a Lunar lander. It remains to be seen whether Shenzhou (like in Apollo), the lander (like in Constellation) or a separate stage (like the Soviet N-1) will perform Lunar orbit insertion (LOI).

It also needs to be emphasised that a Chinese Lunar mission is only currently being studied (this I presume includes the CZ-9). There is no official approval for such a mission. That decision won't be made until 2015.

I hope the Chinese do approve the mission and do not follow the US by abandoning the Moon after initial success. I hope to see missions going beyond the three days of Apollo, missions to the far side, the poles, Copernicus crater, etc.

[Atlan]

A big strengh of chinese culture ist their strong pragmatism and that is really not the case with the americans (you have more the entertainment-mentality as i can see it from my non american-but-hopefully-well-informed viewpoint So its much more probable, that the chinese space programm will have a proper long term planning that the american apollo program without losing support even from their people.

[Phillip Clark]

Apologies, dear Lord Moderator, but this is getting a bit off-topic!

For those of us who have followed the Chinese programme since the launch of Dongfanghong in April 1970, the current pace of the programme is almost supersonic! :-)   China's programme has always progressed slowly, but this does not mean that they are not serious with their plans for programmes like piloted lunar missions and perhaps-serious plans for piloted missions beyond the Earth-Moon system.

The Chinese always do what they promise in space, just not in the timescales that many people outside China are used to.   Remember that we "oldies" grew up during the race to the Moon during the 1960s and the Chinese do not see themselves racing anyone anywhere at present.

Of course, the USA, Japan and/or India might want to beat China to some of its goals but I doubt that the Chinese will speed up their schedules for anyone.

[Lurker Steve]

They have much more money than the US.

::citation needed:: I can't figure out a single metric where Chinese spending exceeds the US's: space spending, overall government expenditures, overall government revenues, etc.

While the Chinese government doesn't spend like drunken sailors, in the same fashion as the US government, it doesn't mean they don't have the funds. Who do you think is financing the US deficit spending ?

[Dalhousie]

They have much more money than the US.

Hopefully not too OT, but size of economy does provide some sort of gauge of what could be achieved (not neccessary what will), depending on priorites.

So for thought not discussion (which would be OT) http://www.economist.com/node/21542155

edited for structure and format

[snowhole]

http://news.cntv.cn/china/20120729/105273.shtml

For those of you who missed (which I did ... didn't expect them to be this open).

[aquanaut99]

http://www.chinesedefence.com/forums/chinese-strategic-forces/3353-cz-9-chinas-next-gen-rocket-moon-landing.html

According to chinesedefense.com, the new launch structure currently under construction in Hainan will service rockets with LEO payloads in the 25 to 200 (!) ton range. I'm assuming they mean metric tons, since China officially uses the metric system.

The first figure obviously refers to CZ-5, which we know will launch from Hainan, but if the second figure is to be believed, that would mean that China envisions a rocket even larger than the CZ-9 design might be required in future.

Further down on that page there is also a mention of a CZ-10, but no references.

[Galactic Penguin SST]

Long March 9 and Long March 11?

Source: http://www.sasac.gov.cn/2011qyzr/2011htkj.pdf (Page 24)

Well that was fast: the CZ-11 project has been officially approved for government funding! The project will be given to CASC's 4th institute (also known as the Academy of Rocket Motors Technology), which makes most of the Chinese solid rocket motors for decades, including the motors for the DF-31 ICBM, the JL-2 SLBM, and also SRMs for satellites.

Apparently proposals for a "quick-launch" small all-solid launcher has been floating around for some time, but I'm still amazed that it got the official approval so quickly (remember that the KT-1 was a completely private-funded project by the CASIC).... 

http://www.9ifly.cn/thread-10208-1-1.html

http://210.82.31.84:9000/rp/fs/cp/98/36/20120905/2/content_1.htm

[Prober]

From Xinhua, New rocket set to blast off by 2013.

anyone know if this is still on schedule?

[Satori]

From Xinhua, New rocket set to blast off by 2013.

anyone know if this is still on schedule?

Have you checked the Chinese Launch Schedule thread?