ATK train with SRB segments crashes again

[edkyle99]

shostetler - 3/5/2007  1:57 AM

edkyle99 - 2/5/2007  11:10 PM

I'm wondering why these segments, parts for NASA's multi-billion dollar babies, are being shipped over what appears to be "iffy" trackage.  ...CSX earnings, along with the earnings of most North American railroads, have been in decline recently, a problem that often causes deferred maintenance.

Ahh.. but how little is known by the general public about the state of class 1 railroads in the US... lol, and how very very little anybody realizes just how big and important our railroad system is. ...

U.S. freight railroads did well in recent years, but the last two quarters have seen declining traffic and revenue.  
See, for example:

http://railfax.transmatch.com/
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/csx-earnings-slip-lower-freight/story.aspx?guid=%7BEF2F6EE6-A7A5-405D-9498-8C2E0A288A3E%7D

That said, I agree that the problem with this particular track probably has more to do with its acquisition by a short line from its former Class I owner.  

NASA should have a say in the routing of this sensitive, hazardous cargo.  If this short line can't handle the freight, then future shipments should be rerouted to better track.

 - Ed Kyle

[edkyle99]

Interesting report at

http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/base/news/1178183785137530.xml&coll=1

says:

"Meridian and Bigbee of Meridian, Miss., was hauling the equipment and owns the trestle, said Mike Williams, a spokesman for Bigbee parent Genesee & Wyoming Inc. of Greenwich, Conn. The bridge was closed for repairs Sunday night and reopened Wednesday morning, he said."

Hmmmm.

 - Ed Kyle

[Jeff Bingham]

I must first say I am happy to learn from ATK sources that those injured in this incident are expected to make a full recovery from their injuries. It also appears that the incident is not expected to cause any delay in the shuttle flight schedule, and I also understand a review of rolling stock maintenance, routing, track maintenance, etc., will be conducted to ensure that equipment or infrastructure failures of this type are addressed.

Having said that, there is a sidebar to the main story here that struck me as an "interesting coincidence"....the personnel car involved in the derailment, and in which the escort passengers (and who it appears are  thankfully) were riding, is owned by the Promontory Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society (NRHS), and is named the "Warrior River." The derailment occurred on the Meridian & Bigbee line on a trestle over the Tombigbee River. The uppermost portion of a chain of rivers, of which the Tombigbee is one, is the Black Warrior River, which empties out of a lake known by two different names: Bankhead Lake and....."Warrior River."  

The "Warrior River" is a Pullman passenger rail car with six bedrooms, two rest rooms, a full kitchen and lounge, built in 1949. It was bought by the Promontory Chapter of the NRHS in 1988 and considerably updated. (The Promontory Chapter takes its name from Promontory Point, in Utah, not far from ATK Thiokol's facility, where the eastern and western segments of the first US transcontinental railroad were joined by the pounding of a "Golden Spike" back in May of 1869.)

[speez]

I too am thankful that all personnel involved in BOTH rail incidents are expected to fully recover.   Just the "sheer coincidence" of two train derailments, is hard to believe.  One might ask the question, "Why are the SRB segments transported by rail, anyway?"

Reminds me of an email I received several years ago.

Here's the link:


http://www.softwaretipsandtricks.com/forum/chit-chat/32708-what-imperial-roman-horse-srbs-shuttle-have-common.html

[gordo]

speez - 4/5/2007  2:07 AM

 "Why are the SRB segments transported by rail, anyway?"

Size and Weight is believe

[Lee Jay]

speez - 3/5/2007  7:07 PM
Reminds me of an email I received several years ago.

Here's the link:

http://www.softwaretipsandtricks.com/forum/chit-chat/32708-what-imperial-roman-horse-srbs-shuttle-have-common.html

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.htm

Lee Jay

[Seattle Dave]

There's about 20 new photos from a NASA guy in L2 of the crash. It's a total mess.

[Jamie Young]

Seattle Dave - 3/5/2007  9:23 PM

There's about 20 new photos from a NASA guy in L2 of the crash. It's a total mess.

I hear ya. But as mentioned a number of times here, I'd take a wrecked train over people getting badly hurt or killed.

[edkyle99]

edkyle99 - 3/5/2007  11:23 AM

Interesting report at

http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/base/news/1178183785137530.xml&coll=1

says:

"Meridian and Bigbee of Meridian, Miss., was hauling the equipment and owns the trestle, said Mike Williams, a spokesman for Bigbee parent Genesee & Wyoming Inc. of Greenwich, Conn. The bridge was closed for repairs Sunday night and reopened Wednesday morning, he said."

Hmmmm.

 - Ed Kyle

AP has picked up this aspect of the story, reporting that work was underway on the trestle right up to the time that the SRB train arrived.  Track workers actually stopped working and were standing track side watching when the train wrecked!

http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_5810824

Shouldn't a precursor "test" train have proceeded before such valuable cargo on track that was in the process of being rebuilt?  The way it seems to have worked out in this case is that the SRB train was the first train across the bridge.  Perhaps this is standard rail freight operating procedure, but it doesn't seem at all smart to me to run this particular train this way.

 - Ed Kyle

[gordo]

edkyle99 - 4/5/2007  5:13 AM

AP has picked up this aspect of the story, reporting that work was underway on the trestle right up to the time that the SRB train arrived.  Track workers actually stopped working and were standing track side watching when the train wrecked!

 - Ed Kyle

I wonder if any of them caught the incient on a mobile phone  

[Gary]

edkyle99 - 4/5/2007  5:13 AM

Shouldn't a precursor "test" train have proceeded before such valuable cargo on track that was in the process of being rebuilt?  The way it seems to have worked out in this case is that the SRB train was the first train across the bridge.  Perhaps this is standard rail freight operating procedure, but it doesn't seem at all smart to me to run this particular train this way.

 - Ed Kyle

I would have thought it would have been standard practice for major track work - unless this particular track work was not that major.
Does anyone know what sort of work they were doing?

[Chris Bergin]

Seattle Dave - 4/5/2007  3:23 AM

There's about 20 new photos from a NASA guy in L2 of the crash. It's a total mess.

We've got a load more memos, so we'll be doing another article within the next hour or so.

[Chris Bergin]

Another article with some of the quotes from the latest memos we've put on L2:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5092

[Chris Bergin]

Larger images of the two used in this article from the 17 exclusive images on L2:

[Johnny Rönnberg]

The US railways seems to be in the same situation as the UK railways - very bad. I'm can not understand that a public open railway can be in this bad condition.

[shuttlepilot]

Johnny Rönnberg - 4/5/2007  9:18 PM

The US railways seems to be in the same situation as the UK railways - very bad. I'm can not understand that a public open railway can be in this bad condition.

You didn't see polish railways

[bholt]

The statistics do not bear this out. U.S. RRs are moving more freight than ever before with relatively few accidents. This is just mainly bad luck.

Brent

[Space101]

shuttlepilot - 4/5/2007  2:24 PM

Johnny Rönnberg - 4/5/2007  9:18 PM

The US railways seems to be in the same situation as the UK railways - very bad. I'm can not understand that a public open railway can be in this bad condition.

You didn't see polish railways

Nothing is as bad as Railtrack PLC!

[edkyle99]

bholt - 4/5/2007  8:51 PM

The statistics do not bear this out. U.S. RRs are moving more freight than ever before with relatively few accidents. This is just mainly bad luck.

Brent

U.S. railroads are moving more freight tonnage, but it is focused on a shrinking system of mainline track - and rail freight is steadily losing market share percentage to trucks.  Secondary rail lines like the Meridian to Mongomery route that put this SRB train on the ground, are marching toward oblivion.

 - Ed Kyle

[renclod]

Gary - 3/5/2007  4:42 PM

Chris Bergin - 3/5/2007  2:00 PM

From the NASA Press Release

These segments are interchangeable, and ATK Launch Systems
has replacement units that could be used for the shuttle flights, if
necessary.

ATK used the word "Bull Crap" when I passed that on. NASA PAO got it wrong.

I suspect that in THEORY they are but in practice the solid propellant is poured from the same mixing vats into both SRB casings. Switching out a segment thats going to have been poured from a different mix could give thrust imbalance issues all of its own.

NASA's own website says as much here - http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/srb.html

I suspect the SRB segments are also carefully matched with regard to the vertical integration. One can learn about SRB and ET tolerances here:

http://www.nasa.gov/offices/oce/llis/0713.html
Public Lessons Learned Entry: 0713

The fit of one section with the next is ensured because their mating parts (tangs and clevis joints) were all drilled using a master tool. There is no alignment adjustment between the sections and the deviation from vertical in the "y" plane is +0.8299" per stack.

All this applies to fabrication (master gauge > transfer gauges > master tools) and would assure the interchangeability (of one segment pair with another segment pair) right off the factory gate.

But I wonder, after a number of missions, going through different environments and flight regimes (temperature of the sea water at splash, aerodynamic loads) what happens with the assured interchangeability of segments.