Author Topic: Energia/Orion  (Read 14445 times)

Offline Emil

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Energia/Orion
« on: 04/13/2007 05:30 PM »

    Happy Easter,my fellow nasaspaceflight fans!
  I just wondered about what it would be like for the LSAM,TLI-stage and Orion to be strapped on the side of
  the well known Energia booster?
   You know,the beauty of the ISS consists above all in the international cooperation.
   Why not do the same with project Constellation?

Online bad_astra

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #1 on: 04/13/2007 08:03 PM »
Energia doesn't exist anymore, sadly.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline kraisee

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #2 on: 04/13/2007 08:44 PM »
Apart from that, flying crew next to any LV is never going to happen again.   The crew will always be flying on top, so that they can escape upwards and have no concerns about flying through shrapnel and fireballs if the vehicle ever experiences a "bad day".

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Online bad_astra

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #3 on: 04/13/2007 08:59 PM »
The Vulkan version of Energia with inline payloads would have been the ticket but again it doesn't exist either.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline sandrot

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #4 on: 04/13/2007 09:36 PM »
I can't even think to Energia LOC and LOM numbers with the 4 liquid strap on...
"Paper planes do fly much better than paper spacecrafts."

Online bad_astra

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #5 on: 04/15/2007 02:49 PM »
On the other hand, it might be possible to launch Ptichkin atop of an Ares V. We're going to loose a lot of downmass and other capabilities from the loss of STS. It's an idea I've been musing on for a little while. Keeping one shuttle like this for shuttle specific uses is something I think would be a good idea, if the money was there.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline kraisee

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #6 on: 04/15/2007 09:17 PM »
There's no way to maintain the Shuttle for flights without keeping the entire $2.5bn/year standing army of employees and facilities unchanged - whether you fly or not.   Removing this amount (more than a quarter of the entire budget) of cash from the Constellation funding every year would seriously screw up the schedule.

You couldn't even do it if you were using something much 'closer', like DIRECT.

Its Shuttle or it's a Lunar>Mars program.   We can't afford both.   Choose.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Online bad_astra

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #7 on: 04/16/2007 01:11 PM »
Quote
kraisee - 15/4/2007  4:17 PM

There's no way to maintain the Shuttle for flights without keeping the entire $2.5bn/year standing army of employees and facilities unchanged - whether you fly or not.   Removing this amount (more than a quarter of the entire budget) of cash from the Constellation funding every year would seriously screw up the schedule.

You couldn't even do it if you were using something much 'closer', like DIRECT.

Its Shuttle or it's a Lunar>Mars program.   We can't afford both.   Choose.

Ross.

Maintaining a modified Ptichkin (if it were for sale) simply as payload to put atop Ares V would not be too great of a strain on budgets. It would primarily be payload. It could be flown unmanned. It's needed roles would be limited. Keeping a core of Shuttle astronauts trained to fly it would not be too great of a strain, either. NASA has far too many astronauts as it is, let them do something besides sit in endless meetings.

At some point we're going to miss a lot of the functions the shuttle could do. Having a shuttle might also be handy for the construction of a Mars Transfer vehicle.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline Jim

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #8 on: 04/16/2007 01:14 PM »
Quote
bad_astra - 16/4/2007  9:11 AM


At some point we're going to miss a lot of the functions the shuttle could do. Having a shuttle might also be handy for the construction of a Mars Transfer vehicle.

It won't be needed.  The shuttle capabilites are overstated and were a crutch.  MIR was assembled without a shuttle.  The MTV can be designed without the need for onorbit assembly.

Offline Christine

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #9 on: 04/16/2007 01:24 PM »
A MTKVA might be nice to have as a temporary station for MTV assembly.

Online bad_astra

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #10 on: 04/16/2007 01:55 PM »
True.. that's another possible function that's been overlooked in the past, Long Duration Orbiter.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline Christine

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #11 on: 04/16/2007 03:09 PM »
I don't really understand why it was overlooked in the shuttle. They added 50 tonnes of useless winglets, a large middeck that on most flights seemingly only serves as ballast, and several kitchen sinks. Why didn't they think that with all this other crap, having a few extra kilowatts of solar panels wouldn't be important?

Offline Jim

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #12 on: 04/16/2007 03:15 PM »
Quote
Christine - 16/4/2007  11:09 AM

I don't really understand why it was overlooked in the shuttle. They added 50 tonnes of useless winglets, a large middeck that on most flights seemingly only serves as ballast, and several kitchen sinks. Why didn't they think that with all this other crap, having a few extra kilowatts of solar panels wouldn't be important?

Do you have a problem with every post?  Add something constructive for once

Offline Christine

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #13 on: 04/16/2007 03:37 PM »
Quote
Jim - 16/4/2007  10:15 AM
Do you have a problem with every post?  Add something constructive for once

I'm not sure where to go with that one Jim. I was merely observing that if you're going to drag 110tons to orbit, you might add a couple hundred kilograms of solar panels to supplement your onboard fuel cells.

Anywho, I sincerely apologise for trespassing in the forum Jim. I should have taken more time to read the forum FAQ, which details that it is exclusively reserved as your personal sounding board. I'll take my irreverent musings somewhere else.

Offline Jim

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #14 on: 04/16/2007 04:06 PM »
Quote
Christine - 16/4/2007  11:37 AM

I'm not sure where to go with that one Jim. I was merely observing that if you're going to drag 110tons to orbit, you might add a couple hundred kilograms of solar panels to supplement your onboard fuel cells.


Which still doesn't help because there still is limited stowage and other consumables.

Online bad_astra

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #15 on: 04/16/2007 06:15 PM »
Quote
Christine - 16/4/2007  10:09 AM

I don't really understand why it was overlooked in the shuttle. They added 50 tonnes of useless winglets, a large middeck that on most flights seemingly only serves as ballast, and several kitchen sinks. Why didn't they think that with all this other crap, having a few extra kilowatts of solar panels wouldn't be important?
There was SPP but it was never actually used. I think there was worry about keeping the tires inflated during long duration flights.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline Thorny

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #16 on: 04/16/2007 07:03 PM »
Quote
Christine - 16/4/2007  10:09 AM

I don't really understand why it was overlooked in the shuttle. They added 50 tonnes of useless winglets, a large middeck that on most flights seemingly only serves as ballast, and several kitchen sinks. Why didn't they think that with all this other crap, having a few extra kilowatts of solar panels wouldn't be important?

It wasn't considered necessary for the job. Remember the vehicle is called the Shuttle, not the Winged Space Station. It was supposed to go up and do certain missions (deliver crew and cargo to a Space Station, deploy satellites, recover and return satellites) most of which can be done in a week or so. It was never planned to stay for a month at a time. Since flights were meant to be short (to support the planned high flight rate) NASA chose fuel cells over solar panels / batteries. Adding both meant extra weight that wasn't really needed. And when they did need to increase endurance, it was a lot easier to just add more cryo for the fuel cells, in the form of the Extended Duration Orbiter pallet.

All the "crap" you cite actually serves a purpose. The mid-deck is there because NASA wanted large crews, both for the many missions Shuttle was to fly and for crew exchange at the Station. The wings, of course are there so the Shuttle can land intact and fly again later, perhaps not the smartest design, but that's an entirely different debate.

Offline privateer

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #17 on: 04/16/2007 07:57 PM »
Quote
sandrot - 13/4/2007  4:36 PM

I can't even think to Energia LOC and LOM numbers with the 4 liquid strap on...

Why? Soyuz has four liquid strapons since forever, and what? Perfect 0% historical launcher-related LOC! LOM is around 1%, I believe? Compare that with Shuttle's numbers.

Offline GraphGuy

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #18 on: 04/16/2007 08:34 PM »
Quote
Christine - 16/4/2007  10:09 AM

I don't really understand why it was overlooked in the shuttle. They added 50 tonnes of useless winglets, a large middeck that on most flights seemingly only serves as ballast, and several kitchen sinks. Why didn't they think that with all this other crap, having a few extra kilowatts of solar panels wouldn't be important?

I don't think that the shuttles mission profiles included loitering in orbit for half a year.  If I recall, Endeavor (with the most advanced fuel cells) can stay in orbit for 20 or 28 days.

The shuttle was designed to be a cargo taxi to a space station.  It was intended to regularly take cargo up, come down and then to repeat for a low cost.  It was designed for the return flight and to be reusable, not to spend time floating.

Offline SteveNovak

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Re: Energia/Orion
« Reply #19 on: 05/06/2007 06:18 PM »
Quote
Christine - 16/4/2007  8:37 AM

Quote
Jim - 16/4/2007  10:15 AM
Do you have a problem with every post?  Add something constructive for once

I'm not sure where to go with that one Jim. I was merely observing that if you're going to drag 110tons to orbit, you might add a couple hundred kilograms of solar panels to supplement your onboard fuel cells.

Anywho, I sincerely apologise for trespassing in the forum Jim. I should have taken more time to read the forum FAQ, which details that it is exclusively reserved as your personal sounding board. I'll take my irreverent musings somewhere else.

This "rocket scientist" (as he calls himself) represents what is wrong with many of those involved (if he really is) is this Country's manned space program. They tend to be closed minded and cannot see the big picture or even think out of the box. I ignore him because he lacks vision and likes to hear himself "talk" .. LOL

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