STS-124 Update Thread

[Chris Bergin]

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5054 - many thanks to Kai Multhaup, on what is his debut article here. Infro from L2.

Are they trying to get as many rookie astronauts on missions till 2010?  With the shuttle retiring in 2010 are they letting the rookies get experince with the shuttle before it retires?  With the ISS about to be finished shouldn't they need experinced astronauts to be on missions so that everything goes well and the station gets complete?

[STS-500Cmdr]

Looks that way--Miles O'Brien had a good point about this in the first night of the Lisa Nowak story about how you got all these people in the astro office some from classes 10 or so yrs ago 1996, 1998 etc who havent flown yet--all qualified people trying to fill into what 15-16 flights in 3 years on a 7-seat shuttle.  He mentioned that as possibly part of Nowak's breakdown.  There are alot of people who arent going to get a flight.  In the old days one of the first things Deke Slayton told guys was theres no guarantee your're going to get a flight at all.  Some people will walk away after shuttle is done, some will be patient enough to stick around for Orion Alot of these people will be fortunate to get 1 flight if at all, and you notice pilots are being upgraded to CDR quicker after having 1 flight as a pilot under their belt as opposed to the fairly normal practice of some flying 2 flights as a pilot before being moved up to CDR.  Probably a matter of who impresses the brass in the CAPCOM roles and T-38 flights and whatnot plus the crunchtime they facing.  Going once is better than not going at all.

[Jorge]

Justin Wheat - 23/3/2007  10:12 PM

Are they trying to get as many rookie astronauts on missions till 2010?  With the shuttle retiring in 2010 are they letting the rookies get experince with the shuttle before it retires?

Yes and yes.

 With the ISS about to be finished shouldn't they need experinced astronauts to be on missions so that everything goes well and the station gets complete?

There are always at least two veterans (CDR and one EVA MS) on each crew, and crew training is pretty thorough.

This policy is thinking toward the future - Steve Lindsey doesn't know right now which astronauts will stick it out to 2014 (or later) when Orion finally flies, so he is aiming to assure that out of those who remain, the maximum number have at least some flight experience.
--
JRF

[spaceflight101]

When they made the selections for the last class of candidates, one walked away after being told that he wouldn't fly on the Shuttle. At that point in time, I was e-mailing William "Reads" Readdy, and I expressed my feelings about that.

I told him that if I had the chance, I'd spend the rest of my working life testing simulators so that those who are my size would have the chance to fly.

And then we read about the "chosen ones" who don't have the discipline to stick it out through a dry spell, and contribute to the effort with the skillsets that they bring to the party? In the immortal words of Shoeless Joe Jackson, from "Field of Dreams":
"I think you better stay here, Ray."

Hate to tell you this, folks, but you aren't going to fly on the Enterprise either! You, like us, were born a bit too early...

There's a LOT more to "discipline" than thousands of flying hours and college degrees...

[dbhyslop]

spaceflight101 - 13/4/2007  8:47 PM

And then we read about the "chosen ones" who don't have the discipline to stick it out through a dry spell, and contribute to the effort with the skillsets that they bring to the party? In the immortal words of Shoeless Joe Jackson, from "Field of Dreams":
"I think you better stay here, Ray."

On the other hand perhaps there's something to be said for people who choose to pursue their own goals rather than push paper and do astronaut busywork for a decade on the hope that if they behave their boss will send them into space.  I'm sure it takes a lot of courage to stand at that precipice--your childhood dream in sight--and decide that its not worth giving up your career (your happiness?) for.

[Endeavour118]

dbhyslop - 13/4/2007  9:39 PM

spaceflight101 - 13/4/2007  8:47 PM

And then we read about the "chosen ones" who don't have the discipline to stick it out through a dry spell, and contribute to the effort with the skillsets that they bring to the party? In the immortal words of Shoeless Joe Jackson, from "Field of Dreams":
"I think you better stay here, Ray."

On the other hand perhaps there's something to be said for people who choose to pursue their own goals rather than push paper and do astronaut busywork for a decade on the hope that if they behave their boss will send them into space.  I'm sure it takes a lot of courage to stand at that precipice--your childhood dream in sight--and decide that its not worth giving up your career (your happiness?) for.

There Are 2 1996 astronauts doing that waiting for an assignment

[spaceflight101]

"There Are 2 1996 astronauts doing that waiting for an assignment"

OK, but I'll bet that they haven't played Solitaire for the past 11 years. So what if you never get to go into space? That's only one dimension of the job. From testing EVA suits, to running simulators,  to working CAPCOM, to visiting classrooms and science centers, there's a plethora of things that astronauts can do that certainly contribute to the overall program. And they certainly do all of those things, as well as many others that I can't name, and they do quite a good job of it, by and large.

When I was a kid, I wanted to be an astronaut like everyone else. Then I wanted to be a DJ. I never got to either one of those places, but am I disappointed because my "goals" didn't work out? No.

And, as DB has mentioned, sometimes when your dreams are close enough to reach out and touch them, yet (here's "Field of Dreams' Doc Graham) they brush past you like a stranger in the crowd, it does indeed take a special kind of courage to go home one evening and tell your family that you're giving up, and moving back home.

But that requires that you look yourself in the mirror, and honestly answer the question "Do I have nothing to contribute to NASA, nor spaceflight" with a "no".

Truth be told, by the time you've been selected to wear that blue jumpsuit, that question has already been answered by your peers.

There are some that have never really left the program, like Buzz Aldrin and Rusty Schweikart, and their continued efforts set a high bar for anyone to follow. There are some at the other end of the spectrum as well, who either willingly hang 'em up or are asked to.

In the end, they're as human as the rest of us.

[ApolloLee]

Seems to me if Bigelow has his way, there will be plenty of opportunities for astronauts to get flights...

[dbhyslop]

spaceflight101 - 14/4/2007  8:13 PM
OK, but I'll bet that they haven't played Solitaire for the past 11 years. So what if you never get to go into space? That's only one dimension of the job. From testing EVA suits, to running simulators,  to working CAPCOM, to visiting classrooms and science centers, there's a plethora of things that astronauts can do that certainly contribute to the overall program. And they certainly do all of those things, as well as many others that I can't name, and they do quite a good job of it, by and large.

...exactly the busywork I was alluding to.

But that requires that you look yourself in the mirror, and honestly answer the question "Do I have nothing to contribute to NASA, nor spaceflight" with a "no".

I think this is tremendously naive, even juvenile.  These people are go-getters.  I don't think NASA wants anyone who got their engineering, science or medical degrees because they thought it would make them a better astronaut candidate.  I think NASA wants people who have undying passions for engineering, science or medicine.  I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who says, "Am I going to give up what I love doing every day so that I can talk to bored middle schoolers for eight years then maybe fly into space?"  You're suggesting that the person has an obligation to give up what they love to talk to those bored middle schoolers.

When I was an undergrad I had an acquaintance who was most of the way through his PhD.  He decided he hated it, didn't want to be a professor, and quit to work in a bike shop.  Did he look in that mirror and say "Do I have nothing to contribute to my science, or the future?"  Heck no!  He realized he would only live once and he wanted to spend every day doing something he loved and he would never have a carrot dangled in front of his head again.  The only time I ever saw him happy was when my wife and I went into to have him look at our deraileurs.

[spaceflight101]

"I think this is tremendously naive, even juvenile."

You really think so? I would be "disinclined to acquiesce", as a fictional pirate once said.
If a person only applied to go into space, then they have set themselves up for a huge disappointment. Granted, there are "societal pressures" going on within the Astronaut Corps that have come to light only in recent months, and I'll not go into why. We've all read the headlines...

NASA is losing the battle to interest the next generation. Those "bored middle schoolers" will be the generation that possibly goes to Mars...but only if their interests can be redirected somehow from the many other things that are available to them today.

And why would it be "giving up what they love"? "Astronaut" is a job description. It's what you make of it. Yeah, I feel badly for those who do lunches with the kids at the KSC visitor's center, but I believe that they understand that as long as you have a chance, and represent the Corps, you're doing something really great. In October 2003 I met Bill Pogue at the visitor's center, quite by accident. He was giving a presentation, and my sister and I stopped to listen.

When he finished, I thanked him for staying involved in spaceflight, and continuing to work with the next generation, especially after Columbia. That resulted in a rather interesting conversation, one I'll always remember.

I can identify with your friend. I stumbled upon industrial instrumentation and process controls by accident, and have loved every minute of it for the past 29 years. It's enabled me to do things I never imagined, and taken me places I'd have never gone on my own...and all on someone else's dime. Being happy with what you do for a living is a blessing in disguise, because not too many people are fortunate enough to be able to do that.

I attended the CAIB hearing in Washington, and one of the things that was said didn't surprise me at all, because I've worked with the current generation of engineers.
It was said that when "fresh-outs" at NASA learn that they will have to manage projects and that they will not design the Starship Enterprise, they leave. Serious spaceflight is not about instant gratification, it's about a one-step-at-a-time, disciplined approach. If you can't accept that you're not going to do something in your lifetime, but that what you do today will be a stepping stone to tomorrow, then perhaps you need to go to the private sector, where "long-term" is next week, and as Gene Kranz once said, "nothing has any shelf-life whatsoever".  Here today, gone tomorrow.

"Busywork"?!!! Not hardly. Would I do it if I was qualified? Certainly. Would you? That's a question you have to ask yourself. Sure, you can make a ton more money by not working at NASA, or its myriad contractors, but would you like to see the results of your work rolling across a Martian plain, or rusting in a junkyard?

So, we agree to disagree, eh?  

[dbhyslop]

spaceflight101 - 15/4/2007  9:30 AM
And why would it be "giving up what they love"? "Astronaut" is a job description. It's what you make of it. Yeah, I feel badly for those who do lunches with the kids at the KSC visitor's center, but I believe that they understand that as long as you have a chance, and represent the Corps, you're doing something really great. In October 2003 I met Bill Pogue at the visitor's center, quite by accident. He was giving a presentation, and my sister and I stopped to listen.

I think this where we disagree.  There's a lot of people out there who look forward all night to sitting down at their desk and doing engineering, or their science or whatever.  Not watching the clock all day and bringing their work home with them because they like it so much.  If you take any given issue of Science or Nature all the authors listed are probably those kind of people (I'm sure there's an equivalent engineering analogy).  Being able to "represent the Corps, doing something really great" is a pretty small consolation to not doing what you really want to be doing.  And that's why I said I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who turns down the astronaut corps--that dangling carrot is so huge that it would take tremendous willpower and consciousness of oneself to turn away from it.

[MKremer]

Look,  you either do what you love for a living, or just make do.

If you commit yourself to do what you love for your career you also have to suffer through the almost constant B.S. that goes along with it (and the B.S. may get to overwhelm the job you want to love in doing the things you love to do).

If the B.S., and/or other constant distractions, begins to get too great (or already is too overwhelming, with no way out) then it's time to step back and seriously contemplate where you're at now -vs- where you really wanted to be and what you were originally wanting to do.

For some people what they're doing now (and putting up with B.S. and delays) is still worthwhile; for others it's not worth the headaches and hassles so it's time to re-evaluate and look to achieve your career passion via other sources.

[psloss]

MKremer - 15/4/2007  11:12 AM

Look,  you either do what you love for a living, or just make do.

I believe one of the sayings is "do you live to work or do you work to live?" -- not a one-time question.

And by the way, how many of us are willing to put our private/personal decisions about our lives and/or our careers up to public scrutiny?

[spaceflight101]

"I believe one of the sayings is "do you live to work or do you work to live?" -- not a one-time question."

Wholeheartedly agreed to!
I had worked for Westinghouse for 18 years before the end of 1999. My father had died two years earlier, and I needed to be home to take care of my mother. The powers that be insisted on sending me out on the road for months at a time, however, and so I made plans to leave their employ after my former boss threatened me.

What cemented my decision was a comment from the head engineer of the project that I was scheduled to be sent on:
"Your family is an impediment to your career."
He said this with a 600 mile buffer between us.
I submitted my letter of resignation that same hour.
I loved doing what I do, I no longer loved who I was doing it with.

I work to live. My father labored in a local steel mill for 32 years before it closed down. All of those missed birthdays, school plays, Little League games, Christmases, for what? So they could tear it down and replace it with a shopping center?

During a mock interview, my sister asked me what I felt was my best achievement in life. "The three baseball caps hanging up in my ham shack", I replied.
I was here to take care of my mother, who passed two years ago, and I was able to coach my son's Little League teams for three years.

I didn't like things, and so I made the decision to move on. It's true, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.  

[anik]

Images (below) of preparation of astronauts Mark Kelly and Akihiko Hoshide to a flight in T-38 jet are from Shuttle Gallery...

[img=http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/shuttle/sts-124/lores/jsc2007e19183.jpg]

[img=http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/shuttle/sts-124/lores/jsc2007e19184.jpg]

[img=http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/shuttle/sts-124/lores/jsc2007e19189.jpg]

[Endeavour118]

STS-500Cmdr - 4/4/2007  4:27 PM

Looks that way--Miles O'Brien had a good point about this in the first night of the Lisa Nowak story about how you got all these people in the astro office some from classes 10 or so yrs ago 1996, 1998 etc who havent flown yet--all qualified people trying to fill into what 15-16 flights in 3 years on a 7-seat shuttle.  He mentioned that as possibly part of Nowak's breakdown.  There are alot of people who arent going to get a flight.  In the old days one of the first things Deke Slayton told guys was theres no guarantee your're going to get a flight at all.  Some people will walk away after shuttle is done, some will be patient enough to stick around for Orion Alot of these people will be fortunate to get 1 flight if at all, and you notice pilots are being upgraded to CDR quicker after having 1 flight as a pilot under their belt as opposed to the fairly normal practice of some flying 2 flights as a pilot before being moved up to CDR.  Probably a matter of who impresses the brass in the CAPCOM roles and T-38 flights and whatnot plus the crunchtime they facing.  Going once is better than not going at all.

a u noticed at the begining of the shuttle program that if u were a PLT on one mission u would be a CDR on ur next  i think the last   time that happened with the cdr on the 2nd flight PRE STS-107 was sts-59 with sid Gutereiez?sp also   for expample the CDR AND PLT also kevin chilton had 2 flights on that mission  i think they look at when they were selected to choose who was CDR and PLT  sid was selected in 1984 and kevin chilton  was picked in 87 but  with Scott  Kelly And charlie hobaugh how did they get to choose who was CDR and PLT they were selected in the class of 96

[Ben E]

Don't know, but Kelly flew his first mission before Hobaugh (as PLT on STS-103) and had also served a backup stint as Expedition-5 flight engineer. Maybe that kinda gave him 'two' flights (albeit one 'unflown'). A similar thing happened before Griggs' death, when O'Connor and Blaha were named as CDR and PLT for STS-40 - both were 1980 selectees, but O'Connor flew first.

[Endeavour118]

Ben E - 2/5/2007  4:41 PM

Don't know, but Kelly flew his first mission before Hobaugh (as PLT on STS-103) and had also served a backup stint as Expedition-5 flight engineer. Maybe that kinda gave him 'two' flights (albeit one 'unflown'). A similar thing happened before Griggs' death, when O'Connor and Blaha were named as CDR and PLT for STS-40 - both were 1980 selectees, but O'Connor flew first.

Who Is Griggs?

[Jorge]

Endeavour118 - 2/5/2007  7:27 PM

Ben E - 2/5/2007  4:41 PM

Don't know, but Kelly flew his first mission before Hobaugh (as PLT on STS-103) and had also served a backup stint as Expedition-5 flight engineer. Maybe that kinda gave him 'two' flights (albeit one 'unflown'). A similar thing happened before Griggs' death, when O'Connor and Blaha were named as CDR and PLT for STS-40 - both were 1980 selectees, but O'Connor flew first.

Who Is Griggs?

Who Was Griggs, you mean...

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/griggs.html

--
JRF