LIVE: SpaceX - Falcon I (Mk.II) NET March 20 (Attempt 2)

[publiusr]

Avron - 29/3/2007  10:39 PM

A new Factory, says one thing to me, new Business, growth..
Also looks like Elon has been doing some reading here..

Maybe he should move to Alabama. Right-to-work and all. Our legislature just gave themselves a pay raise, and people are still wanting tax dollars for a dome---so why not try to get a piece of that action...

[yinzer]

CA is right-to-work, too.  The thought of Elon moving to Alabama is... amusing.

[publiusr]

yinzer - 30/3/2007  2:18 PM

CA is right-to-work, too.  The thought of Elon moving to Alabama is... amusing.

Land price is inexpensive by comparison. Not quite as many tornadoes as in Oklahoma City home of RpK.

[braddock]

I read an article in the LA area "Daily Breeze" a couple weeks ago claiming SpaceX was moving to nearby Hawthorne, pretty close to El Segundo and LAX.  It looks like the article has been pulled from the Daily Breeze site now though, and there doesn't seem to be any independent confirmation.

[simonbp]

yinzer - 30/3/2007  2:18 PM

CA is right-to-work, too.  The thought of Elon moving to Alabama is... amusing.

Considering the how little Boeing paid for a massive chunk of riverfront land in Decatur, in comparison to LA property prices, having a rocket factory in El Segundo these days is even more amusing...

Simon

[Antares]

Avron - 29/3/2007  11:39 PM

Antares - 29/3/2007  11:09 PM

Avron - 29/3/2007  12:30 AM
This flight was not part of COTS was it? If not, when will we see what $274 million can do?

Within the next week or two, SpaceX will have gotten $86.4M of the $274M.  They will have met their first 5 milestones.

Thanks for the feedback folks... whats the next milestone, and what is it worth?

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/162330main_SPACE_ACT_AGREEMENT_FOR_COTS.pdf
That has both SAA's for SpaceX and RpK.  It's useful to split it into two files if you have the full Acrobat.

[yinzer]

simonbp - 31/3/2007  8:07 AM

yinzer - 30/3/2007  2:18 PM

CA is right-to-work, too.  The thought of Elon moving to Alabama is... amusing.

Considering the how little Boeing paid for a massive chunk of riverfront land in Decatur, in comparison to LA property prices, having a rocket factory in El Segundo these days is even more amusing...

Simon

Cheap land is usually cheap for a reason, and the cost of a rocket factory is not in the land it sits on.  Never mind how many transcontinental flights to check on his other companies it would take to outweigh the potential savings, or being 8 hours being Kwaj vs. 5, etc.

[aero313]

yinzer - 31/3/2007  10:07 PM

Cheap land is usually cheap for a reason, and the cost of a rocket factory is not in the land it sits on.  Never mind how many transcontinental flights to check on his other companies it would take to outweigh the potential savings, or being 8 hours being Kwaj vs. 5, etc.

First, in SoCal the cost of land IS a big part of the factory cost, especially west of PCH.  There's a tremendous difference in land and factory costs just moving from El Segundo to Hawthorne to the Valley to Mojave.  All of these are the same distance from Kwaj - ignoring the fact that Kwaj wasn't even a consideration when Musk set up the El Segundo factory.  As an example, if you were really planning to operate out of Vandenberg (as was SpaceX's original intention), it would have made much more sense to locate in the Santa Maria area, if not on VAFB itself.  Recall that General Dynamics used to build all Atlas vehicles at VAFB, both commercial and Gov't.  Cheap existing facilities and infrastructure, lower cost of living (= lower salaries), and incentives to bring in jobs.  If your goal is to operate the lowest cost launch system, why locate the factory in one of the highest cost of living areas in the country?

Locating in SoCal does make some sense due to the extensive existing infrastructure of aerospace suppliers... except that SpaceX is supposed to be completely vertically integrated, so they don't need these suppliers.  Besides, there are probably more suppliers located in the Valley than in South Bay.

[Jim]

aero313 - 31/3/2007  10:43 PM
  Recall that General Dynamics used to build all Atlas vehicles at VAFB, both commercial and Gov't.  Cheap existing facilities and infrastructure, lower cost of living (= lower salaries), and incentives to bring in jobs.

Actually, it only refurbished Atlas E&F's at VAFB.  The tanks and vehicles were always built in San Diego

[yinzer]

aero313 - 31/3/2007  7:43 PM
Cheap existing facilities and infrastructure, lower cost of living (= lower salaries), and incentives to bring in jobs.  If your goal is to operate the lowest cost launch system, why locate the factory in one of the highest cost of living areas in the country?

Why are there huge numbers of tech companies in Silicon Valley, which costs even more than LA, when they could be located in somewhere much cheaper, say in the Research Triangle Park in North Carolina?  If you're looking to hire highly experienced and skilled people for a risky endeavor, you'll do much better if they don't have to move, and then move back if the company folds.

Locating in SoCal does make some sense due to the extensive existing infrastructure of aerospace suppliers... except that SpaceX is supposed to be completely vertically integrated, so they don't need these suppliers. Besides, there are probably more suppliers located in the Valley than in South Bay.

If you look at suppliers as somewhere to poach engineers to work at your vertically integrated firm, this makes sense.

This may not be the traditional aerospace company way, but it's certainly the way Elon's previous companies have operated.

[josh_simonson]

There are also logistical issues with these big rockets.  El Segundo is close to the port, which makes it much easier.  If he had to truck them in from Lancaster it'd be much worse.  MAF is located where it is for the same reason, and though the land was cheap - the hurricane dammage was not.  No hurricanes in El Segundo.

[pippin]

[Avron]

Antares - 31/3/2007  9:38 PM

Avron - 29/3/2007  11:39 PM

Antares - 29/3/2007  11:09 PM

Avron - 29/3/2007  12:30 AM
This flight was not part of COTS was it? If not, when will we see what $274 million can do?

Within the next week or two, SpaceX will have gotten $86.4M of the $274M.  They will have met their first 5 milestones.

Thanks for the feedback folks... whats the next milestone, and what is it worth?

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/162330main_SPACE_ACT_AGREEMENT_FOR_COTS.pdf
That has both SAA's for SpaceX and RpK.  It's useful to split it into two files if you have the full Acrobat.

Great link thanks..

So if I read it right, this is next up?
"
Milestone 6: Demo 1 System Critical Design Review Amount$8,133,333
Date. Aug 2007
SpaceX shall conduct a System Critical Design Review (CDR) in
accordance with accordance with the CDR definition in Appendix 3.
SpaceX shah also provide review of the FAA Licensing Package.
Success criteria:
Successful completion of the System CDR and draft of the FAA Licensing
Package."

[Sphereion]

Musk interview with BBC World Service. http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/worldservice/meta/tx/globalbusiness?nbram=1&nbwm=1&size=au&lang=en-ws&bgc=003399

[aero313]

josh_simonson - 1/4/2007  4:10 AM

There are also logistical issues with these big rockets.  El Segundo is close to the port, which makes it much easier.  If he had to truck them in from Lancaster it'd be much worse.  

Have you been to El Segundo?  It's nowhere near LA harbor or the port of Long Beach.  Getting to either port requires a lengthy ride through the worst of LA traffic.  Not the easiest thing to do with a long rocket.  Basing directly at one of those ports would have made much more sense.  Also, those aren't the only ports on the California coast.  Basing in Ventura/Oxnard might have made MUCH more sense, since you have both easy access to a port and easy access to VAFB.  And more to the point, as I noted previously, the El Segundo location was picked long before the decision to go to Kwaj was made.  At the time, VAFB was the baseline launch site.  

MAF is located where it is for the same reason, and though the land was cheap - the hurricane dammage was not.  No hurricanes in El Segundo.

Nor in Mojave, Ventura, or Lompoc.  Having worked at an aerospace company in El Segundo, I can tell you that there IS seismic activity.  Carefully aligned spacecraft assembly fixtures in the high bay needed frequent checking and realignment due to tremors.  This was far more frequent than hurricanes are at CCAFS.

[Cretan126]

aero313 - 2/4/2007 8:46 AM

josh_simonson - 1/4/2007 4:10 AM There are also logistical issues with these big rockets. El Segundo is close to the port, which makes it much easier. If he had to truck them in from Lancaster it'd be much worse.

Have you been to El Segundo? It's nowhere near LA harbor or the port of Long Beach. Getting to either port requires a lengthy ride through the worst of LA traffic. Not the easiest thing to do with a long rocket. Basing directly at one of those ports would have made much more sense. Also, those aren't the only ports on the California coast. Basing in Ventura/Oxnard might have made MUCH more sense, since you have both easy access to a port and easy access to VAFB. And more to the point, as I noted previously, the El Segundo location was picked long before the decision to go to Kwaj was made. At the time, VAFB was the baseline launch site.

MAF is located where it is for the same reason, and though the land was cheap - the hurricane dammage was not. No hurricanes in El Segundo.

Nor in Mojave, Ventura, or Lompoc. Having worked at an aerospace company in El Segundo, I can tell you that there IS seismic activity. Carefully aligned spacecraft assembly fixtures in the high bay needed frequent checking and realignment due to tremors. This was far more frequent than hurricanes are at CCAFS.

 Has anyone noted that LockMart builds the Atlas V EELV - in its entirety - at its facility at the foot of the Rocky Mountains in Littleton, CO?  Not a port in sight.  They transport the booster (in the early morning hours) from Littleton to Denver International and fly them to the Cape or VAFB.  So being near a port is not that big of a deal, although it helps.  In fact, ULA is planning on shifting this operation to the Delta IV facility which does have deep water access, although I suspect that is only one factor with more weight being applied to consolidating production activities at one facility.

[aero313]

Cretan126 - 2/4/2007  11:30 AM

 Has anyone noted that LockMart builds the Atlas V EELV - in its entirety - at its facility at the foot of the Rocky Mountains in Littleton, CO?  Not a port in sight.  They transport the booster (in the early morning hours) from Littleton to Denver International and fly them to the Cape or VAFB.  So being near a port is not that big of a deal, although it helps.

Free air freight on government-furnished C-5As probably doesn't hurt either.

Let's be serious here.  The decisions made by a company with a lot of legacy infrastructure and overhead costs being primarily carried on government contracts will be made differently than those of a purely commecial, supposedly "clean sheet" company whose stated goal is low cost launch.  The location of the Martin Waterton plant was driven as much by Cold War-driven dispersion of national assets as anything else.  Building Delta IIs in Pueblo, CO also made sense when you factored in goverment surplus facilities, incentives, etc.

[Jim]

aero313 - 2/4/2007  2:02 PM

Free air freight on government-furnished C-5As probably doesn't hurt either.

C-5 is not used for Atlas.  The AN-124 is

[WHAP]

Cretan126 - 2/4/2007  9:30 AM
So being near a port is not that big of a deal, although it helps.  In fact, ULA is planning on shifting this operation to the Delta IV facility which does have deep water access, although I suspect that is only one factor with more weight being applied to consolidating production activities at one facility.

Of course, if you're Delta IV, port access is a big deal, since that booster doesn't fit an an aircraft (or at least not a readily available one).  But I don't think SpaceX has to worry about that for a while.

Once Atlas V booster production moves, I wonder if you'll see an Atlas V on an airplane again.

[simonbp]

Out of curiosity, how much does a transcontinental AN-124 flight cost? Couple million?

Simon