SpaceShipThree & SpaceShipFour under study

[CentEur]

Flight International reports some studies have been initiated on SS3 and SS4.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/02/27/212308/nasa-plans-to-hitch-a-lift-on-spaceshiptwo.html

It says "Virgin Galactic has begun studying a SpaceShipFour (SS4) that could serve as a satellite launcher. By 2014 a version of WK2, with its 13,300kg (30,000lb) payload capability, could air launch the two-stage SS4 vehicle."

That SS4 sounds quite like AirLaunch rocket, except that the QuickReach is to weigh some 32,500kg. What would be the payload weight of SS4? QuickReach is promised to lift some 450kg.

[mr.columbus]

The Pegasus can orbit 450kg and weights appr. 20 tons. With 13tons their SS4 will probably be able to launch 300kg milsats. Considering the financial disaster Pegasus is for OSC, I doubt this is going to be very profitable for them.

[Crispy]

Person plus spacesuit plus oxygen supply plus grapple fixture < 300kg?

[Mogster]

It'd certainly appeal to the extreme sports crowd

[PurduesUSAFguy]

I would love to know how Rutan and Co plan to pull of an orbital version of SS2. They would have to be using engine(s) in a significantly higher thrust and especially ISP class then the hybrid motors that SS1 and SS2 used. Not to mention the performance penalty that the mass of a full fledge thermal protection system would give them. I hope they can pull it off, but from where I am sitting it looks rather unobtainable.

I hope they prove me wrong.

[josh_simonson]

Using hybrid rockets they'll have a somewhat poorer payload fraction than pegasus.  Falcon 1 weighs about twice as much, so if a RP-1/LOX engine were used it'd orbit something around or a little over (depending on how much the air launch helps) half the falcon 1 payload.  

Hopefully the SS4 comes with a WK3 that's on a par with the world's largest aircraft.

[simonbp]

Mogster - 27/2/2007  11:33 AM

It'd certainly appeal to the extreme sports crowd

Unfortunately, you wouldn't have that many repeat customers...

Simon

[kkattula]

I kind of expect SS3 to be the t/Space Quickreach II plus CXV, or similar, since Rutan is heavily involved in that.

DARPA is paying Airlaunch for the development of the Quickreach I, while Scaled is being payed by Virgin for developing SS2. These two projects may generate the funds as well as the experience needed for the t/Space project.

[coach]

PurdueUSAFguy, I have often had the same thought.  SS1/SS2 will only use 2% of the energy necessary for orbit.  Even if they develop a new hybrid rocket with more thrust (similar ISP) and the world's largest carrier craft, would it be enough?  It looks doubtful when you consider a new TPS.  The shuttlecock won't work at Mach 25, therefore more mass and less payload.  

If the t/space design goes as planned and Rutan has a hand in it, what kind of TPS can be used?  Will Rutan stick with a spaceplane design?  I can't see him designing anything else.  The SpaceDev DreamChaser also comes to mind in this scenario.


Coach

[GF3]

coach - 28/2/2007  12:29 PM

PurdueUSAFguy, I have often had the same thought.  SS1/SS2 will only use 2% of the energy necessary for orbit.  Even if they develop a new hybrid rocket with more thrust (similar ISP) and the world's largest carrier craft, would it be enough?  It looks doubtful when you consider a new TPS.  The shuttlecock won't work at Mach 25, therefore more mass and less payload.  

If the t/space design goes as planned and Rutan has a hand in it, what kind of TPS can be used?  Will Rutan stick with a spaceplane design?  I can't see him designing anything else.  The SpaceDev DreamChaser also comes to mind in this scenario.


Coach

I am doubt full that Rutan would help another project out. My personal opinion is that if he can't call it HIS OWN he won't be involved.

But thats my .02 cents

[kkattula2]

GF3 - 1/3/2007  8:58 AM

I am doubt full that Rutan would help another project out. My personal opinion is that if he can't call it HIS OWN he won't be involved.

But thats my .02 cents

Umm... Scaled Composites built the CXV test capsule dropped by t/Space, and are already one of the main t/Space partners.  They also built the Rotary Rocket Atmospheric Text Vehicle.  White Knight and Proteus have been used for several outside projects.

So I don't know where you're getting that from...


The t/Space CXV will have a double layer of SIRCA tiles for TPS, on a ballistic re-entry, self-stabilising capsule, based on the old Corona shape. No wings, parachute water landing like Apollo. There was also some talk of spraying water on the surface during re-entry. All simple, straight forward stuff.

http://transformspace.com/

[GF3]

hmmm... thanks for the info I didn't know that.

-Cheers

[Zond]

GF3 - 1/3/2007  4:41 PM

hmmm... thanks for the info I didn't know that.

-Cheers

This CV of Burt Rutan says Scaled Composites also worked on the Kistler Zero. I also wouldn't be surprised if Scaled Composites has build or is building a part that will go into the Kistler K-1. If you have a list of all subcontractors for the K-1 i would check if Scaled isn't on there somewhere.  

[GF3]

Zond - 1/3/2007  2:48 PM

GF3 - 1/3/2007  4:41 PM

hmmm... thanks for the info I didn't know that.

-Cheers

This CV of Burt Rutan says Scaled Composites also worked on the Kistler Zero. I also wouldn't be surprised if Scaled Composites has build or is building a part that will go into the Kistler K-1. If you have a list of all subcontractors for the K-1 i would check if Scaled isn't on there somewhere.  

The only Kistler project that was brought back to life from the old company is the K-1.

In my original post I was not talking about minor subcontract work. I was talking about major projects. Scaled composites is also NOT a subcontractor for the k-1

[BarryKirk]

Well, you might have enough payload for a man in a spacesuit and a MOOSE re-entry system....

LOL

Now that would definitly qualify as extreme sports crowd.

[GF3]

CentEur - 27/2/2007  4:29 AM

Flight International reports some studies have been initiated on SS3 and SS4.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/02/27/212308/nasa-plans-to-hitch-a-lift-on-spaceshiptwo.html

It says "Virgin Galactic has begun studying a SpaceShipFour (SS4) that could serve as a satellite launcher. By 2014 a version of WK2, with its 13,300kg (30,000lb) payload capability, could air launch the two-stage SS4 vehicle."

That SS4 sounds quite like AirLaunch rocket, except that the QuickReach is to weigh some 32,500kg. What would be the payload weight of SS4? QuickReach is promised to lift some 450kg.

Well as you know Virgin is a competitor to us in the space tourism business. When I read this article i was like WTF??? well it lead to a lot of emails by our upper management and NASA. Well in regards to what Virgin said about NASA this is what I found out and I thought i would share it with you all..

What Will Whitehorn was referring to in his statements to Parliament that was just picked up and confirmed by Rob Coppinger at Flight Global was the future plans in the Innovative Partnerships Program at NASA HQ.  Doug Comstock was just put in charge of this office a month or two ago after Brant Sponberg left. It is a very small office, and still in ramp-up mode.
 
We have been talking to Doug and to his deputy Ken Davidian about how they are going to handle a RFP for suborbital astronaut rides since Griffin mentioned it in passing a few months ago.  They still have no idea how it will actually work, but they told me there will most likely be the usual RFI / RFP process for open competition once they get in to that fiscal year and they know they have the funding in place. By the way, they would like us to come in and brief them and the HQ microgravity guys on the XP some time.
 
They may have the $9M in the future budget projections for the IPP office for the 09 fiscal year, but it is of course not appropriated yet.  Also, it is definitely not an earmark for Virgin to grab hold of exclusively, in spite of what Whitehorn might be saying. Whitehorn does not believe that there will be anyone except Virgin flying before 2010 (if ever).

 I hope this clarifies the situation.

[CentEur]

GF3 - 2/3/2007  5:23 PM

CentEur - 27/2/2007  4:29 AM

Flight International reports some studies have been initiated on SS3 and SS4.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/02/27/212308/nasa-plans-to-hitch-a-lift-on-spaceshiptwo.html

It says "Virgin Galactic has begun studying a SpaceShipFour (SS4) that could serve as a satellite launcher. By 2014 a version of WK2, with its 13,300kg (30,000lb) payload capability, could air launch the two-stage SS4 vehicle."

That SS4 sounds quite like AirLaunch rocket, except that the QuickReach is to weigh some 32,500kg. What would be the payload weight of SS4? QuickReach is promised to lift some 450kg.

Well as you know Virgin is a competitor to us in the space tourism business. When I read this article i was like WTF???

I'm quite sure you're talking about the other article (this thread is about ss3 & ss4, not ss2). Nevertheless I'm glad to hear Rocketplane is still a competition to VG, because no news about Rp progress reached me since the creation of RpK. Some people even suggested the work on XP halted when engineers moved to work on K-1.

[gladiator1332]

CentEur - 2/3/2007  6:38 PM

GF3 - 2/3/2007  5:23 PM

CentEur - 27/2/2007  4:29 AM

Flight International reports some studies have been initiated on SS3 and SS4.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/02/27/212308/nasa-plans-to-hitch-a-lift-on-spaceshiptwo.html

It says "Virgin Galactic has begun studying a SpaceShipFour (SS4) that could serve as a satellite launcher. By 2014 a version of WK2, with its 13,300kg (30,000lb) payload capability, could air launch the two-stage SS4 vehicle."

That SS4 sounds quite like AirLaunch rocket, except that the QuickReach is to weigh some 32,500kg. What would be the payload weight of SS4? QuickReach is promised to lift some 450kg.

Well as you know Virgin is a competitor to us in the space tourism business. When I read this article i was like WTF???

I'm quite sure you're talking about the other article (this thread is about ss3 & ss4, not ss2). Nevertheless I'm glad to hear Rocketplane is still a competition to VG, because no news about Rp progress reached me since the creation of RpK. Some people even suggested the work on XP halted when engineers moved to work on K-1.

I am glad to hear that work on the XP is still continuing. While SS2 (and any later models) are just as interesting, I don't want to see them have the only spaceplane on the block.

For SS4, do you think they will keep with the same overall design? Obviously for orbital flight some things will have to change. One possibility is a design based upon the X-37, as WK is the carrier craft for those drop tests. It might be interesting to see an "Rutanified" X-37. Once you begin talking about orbital flight and satellite missions, we are looking at something similar to the OSP.

[GF3]

gladiator1332 - 3/3/2007  7:09 PM

CentEur - 2/3/2007  6:38 PM

GF3 - 2/3/2007  5:23 PM

CentEur - 27/2/2007  4:29 AM

Flight International reports some studies have been initiated on SS3 and SS4.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/02/27/212308/nasa-plans-to-hitch-a-lift-on-spaceshiptwo.html

It says "Virgin Galactic has begun studying a SpaceShipFour (SS4) that could serve as a satellite launcher. By 2014 a version of WK2, with its 13,300kg (30,000lb) payload capability, could air launch the two-stage SS4 vehicle."

That SS4 sounds quite like AirLaunch rocket, except that the QuickReach is to weigh some 32,500kg. What would be the payload weight of SS4? QuickReach is promised to lift some 450kg.

Well as you know Virgin is a competitor to us in the space tourism business. When I read this article i was like WTF???

I'm quite sure you're talking about the other article (this thread is about ss3 & ss4, not ss2). Nevertheless I'm glad to hear Rocketplane is still a competition to VG, because no news about Rp progress reached me since the creation of RpK. Some people even suggested the work on XP halted when engineers moved to work on K-1.

I am glad to hear that work on the XP is still continuing. While SS2 (and any later models) are just as interesting, I don't want to see them have the only spaceplane on the block.

For SS4, do you think they will keep with the same overall design? Obviously for orbital flight some things will have to change. One possibility is a design based upon the X-37, as WK is the carrier craft for those drop tests. It might be interesting to see an "Rutanified" X-37. Once you begin talking about orbital flight and satellite missions, we are looking at something similar to the OSP.

IMO i think for SS4 to become an orbital vehicle that can put satellites up it will have to under go drastic design changes and definitely need more power to get to the altitudes needed.

I like some of the ideas Rutan comes up with so I am interested to see what he is thinking about.

[bad_astra]

GF3 - 28/2/2007  3:58 PM

I am doubt full that Rutan would help another project out. My personal opinion is that if he can't call it HIS OWN he won't be involved.

But thats my .02 cents

He had no qualms building the Roton ATV