Author Topic: The new lunar lander  (Read 31220 times)

Offline zinfab

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #20 on: 03/14/2007 07:25 PM »
Excellent stuff. thanks for the link and pdf!

Offline CFE

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #21 on: 03/15/2007 07:20 AM »
In looking at the recurring theme of "minimal ascent cabins," an obvious question comes to mind.  Why not come up with a minimalist lander that would touch down next door to a larger habitat module for the astronauts to live in?
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Offline Jim

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #22 on: 03/15/2007 12:54 PM »
Quote
CFE - 15/3/2007  5:20 AM

In looking at the recurring theme of "minimal ascent cabins," an obvious question comes to mind.  Why not come up with a minimalist lander that would touch down next door to a larger habitat module for the astronauts to live in?

It doesn't make sense for the first phase of lunar mission, i.e. the sorties.   One lander is needed that supports 4 crew for x days.   The first phase will have landers going to different places to find a spot for the first base

Offline simonbp

Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #23 on: 03/15/2007 09:02 PM »
Quote
Jim - 15/3/2007  8:54 AM

It doesn't make sense for the first phase of lunar mission, i.e. the sorties.   One lander is needed that supports 4 crew for x days.   The first phase will have landers going to different places to find a spot for the first base

... And Griffin's recent comments suggest that after 2021 there will be 1 sortie (not lunar base) mission each year, in addition to 2 base crew rotations and 1 base cargo. So, to keep from having to support two different landers, you want as much commonality as possible between the sortie and base landers...

Simon ;)

Offline copernicus

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #24 on: 03/30/2007 03:54 PM »
I still find Lockheed-Martin's proposed Lunar Lander (LASM) to be the most realistic and flexible.  

Check this review -
 
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=4810


Also, this thread on LM's concepts -

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4393&posts=59&start=1

LM's design does away with trying to land Statue of Liberty-sized landers on the Moon.  
Their concept allows for excellent pilot visibility during approach and landing, as well
as "ground-level" access to the lunar surface.  The astronauts won't have to descend
several "floors" to get to surface as is required by NASA's standard LSAM design.  







Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #25 on: 03/30/2007 04:59 PM »
I think that nearly every once of the vehicle that stays on the surface after the ascent stage leaves need to reusable in some fashion.  Whether its using the tanks as hab modules like the one proposal, or the tanks themselves for LunOx and water storage, disassembly for reuse or burning and metaling down (in to plates, wires and castings) the materials into shapes and objects of use.  It would be ridiculous to have a 10,000 pound lander sitting on the surface while resorces are put into landing further supplies or generating In-situ resources.

Just like western settlers in the 1800's and polar explorers everything needs to be used over and over.  Work and ideas need to start going into this as it will effect the materials the lander is made of and likely its configuration.
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Offline aftercolumbia

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #26 on: 03/30/2007 08:00 PM »
Quote
copernicus - 30/3/2007  9:54 AM

I still find Lockheed-Martin's proposed Lunar Lander (LASM) to be the most realistic and flexible.  

Aw, fizzle farts, let's look a gift horse in the mouth:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/13350.pdf

Offline Norm Hartnett

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #27 on: 04/03/2007 02:23 AM »
The above combined with this article

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5063

What I find most interesting about this is that it is not dependant on the Ares/Constellation LVs. Using the Atlas V Heavy means that an alternative to the NASA ESAS exists and that some form of lunar operations may be viable using existing LVs if the CEV can be launched on some other LV besides the stick.

With robotic precursors delivering both payload and multiple power generation capabilities as well as a backup ascent module the initial base would be ready for assembly prior to the first manned mission. This is a well thought out program and I would love to see what the cost figures would be.
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #28 on: 04/03/2007 12:47 PM »
Quote
Norm Hartnett - 2/4/2007  9:23 PM

The above combined with this article

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5063

What I find most interesting about this is that it is not dependant on the Ares/Constellation LVs. Using the Atlas V Heavy means that an alternative to the NASA ESAS exists and that some form of lunar operations may be viable using existing LVs if the CEV can be launched on some other LV besides the stick.

With robotic precursors delivering both payload and multiple power generation capabilities as well as a backup ascent module the initial base would be ready for assembly prior to the first manned mission. This is a well thought out program and I would love to see what the cost figures would be.

I thought based on the article Atlas Heavy would work for unmanned landing and testing of up to 2 mT of payload to the surface. It would not be able to send a manned mission to the surface. You would still need the Aries V launched EDS for that push.

But if you dig around they do have some atlas growth options that could do that ;) But be very very quite about that one...
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Offline alexterrell

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #29 on: 04/09/2007 08:43 PM »
Quote
Jim - 15/3/2007  8:54 AM

Quote
CFE - 15/3/2007  5:20 AM

In looking at the recurring theme of "minimal ascent cabins," an obvious question comes to mind.  Why not come up with a minimalist lander that would touch down next door to a larger habitat module for the astronauts to live in?

It doesn't make sense for the first phase of lunar mission, i.e. the sorties.   One lander is needed that supports 4 crew for x days.   The first phase will have landers going to different places to find a spot for the first base

Probably not with the heavy architecture NASA has chosen. With a more flexible architecture based on EELVs, it would make sense to land a base first, then a minimalist crew lander. Something like the old Langley Light concepts of the early 60s, where they even proposed unpressurized landers. This seems logical gicen you only need to transport crew for a few hours from Orion to Base.

Offline alexterrell

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #30 on: 04/09/2007 08:46 PM »
Quote
simonbp - 15/3/2007  5:02 PM

Quote
Jim - 15/3/2007  8:54 AM

It doesn't make sense for the first phase of lunar mission, i.e. the sorties.   One lander is needed that supports 4 crew for x days.   The first phase will have landers going to different places to find a spot for the first base

... And Griffin's recent comments suggest that after 2021 there will be 1 sortie (not lunar base) mission each year, in addition to 2 base crew rotations and 1 base cargo. So, to keep from having to support two different landers, you want as much commonality as possible between the sortie and base landers...

Simon ;)

Didn't see this comment, but in principle, wouldn't it be more efficient to scrap the sorties, and instead land a really capable Rover able to cover several thousand kilometres?

Has this trade-off been done?

Offline alexterrell

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RE: The new lunar lander
« Reply #31 on: 04/09/2007 09:09 PM »
Quote
vanilla - 24/2/2007  12:18 PM

If they want to move towards a sustainable, reusable architecture someday with ISRU (which I have to assume is the reason for the South Pole landing site) then they need to moving away from staging, not towards it.  Otherwise, they will be looking at a total lander redesign when they want to get to a better architecture.

I estimated it would take about sixty tons of cargo and one manned mission, to build up the capability to mine water and process it for propellant, assuming there are available water bearing soils (above about 1%). That then gives the ability to refuel a lander for rendez-vous with a CEV or a cargo module. But what landers will they refuel? The ideal answer is the landers which have just landed all the equipment.

That means planning in ISRU from the start. The only lander that's needed is a reusable lander. After two years or so the base will have a collection of landers waiting to be refueled.

Alex

Offline simonbp

Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #32 on: 04/10/2007 01:14 PM »
Quote
alexterrell - 9/4/2007  3:46 PM

Didn't see this comment, but in principle, wouldn't it be more efficient to scrap the sorties, and instead land a really capable Rover able to cover several thousand kilometres?

Has this trade-off been done?

See the JPL design in the above document; basically it's a lunar base on wheels that travels from nearside equatorial down to the south pole, accumulating modules along the way...

Simon ;)

Offline meiza

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #33 on: 04/10/2007 02:04 PM »
Quote
simonbp - 10/4/2007  2:14 PM

Quote
alexterrell - 9/4/2007  3:46 PM

Didn't see this comment, but in principle, wouldn't it be more efficient to scrap the sorties, and instead land a really capable Rover able to cover several thousand kilometres?

Has this trade-off been done?

See the JPL design in the above document; basically it's a lunar base on wheels that travels from nearside equatorial down to the south pole, accumulating modules along the way...

Simon ;)

Hard to imagine a harder way to do it. (A south polar base.)

Offline Ankle-bone12

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #34 on: 04/19/2007 11:43 PM »
anybody see the new "returning to the moon" trailer on the nasa web sight?

heres the URL

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/main/index.html
Alex B.

Offline simonbp

Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #35 on: 04/20/2007 07:11 PM »
Quote
Ankle-bone12 - 19/4/2007  6:43 PM

anybody see the new "returning to the moon" trailer on the nasa web sight?

heres the URL

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/main/index.html

Here's the high-quality version; finally something cinematic from NASA PAO: :)

http://anon.nasa-global.edgesuite.net/anon.nasa-global/CEV/Lunar_Exploration_Trailer.mov

Simon ;)

Offline copernicus

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #36 on: 05/25/2007 09:04 PM »

   As far as I can tell, the RFP for the Lunar Lander is still years down the road.  As others have
noted, this delay in building the lander puts funding for the VSE in jeopardy after Bush leaves
office.  
   My proposal would be for Griffin and NASA to award the prime contract for the Lunar Lander
as soon as possible.  Its development should not be tied to the development of the Ares-5.  
The Lunar Lander could conduct a series of Earth orbital flights, manned and unmanned, to test
its systems.  This would be similar to Apollo 5 and Apollo 9, as well as to the 2 LEO unmanned tests
of the Soviets' LK lunar module.  
   What are the prospects for launching this with the Ares-1 or the Atlas-5 or the Delta-4, perhaps with
a partial propellant load on the Lunar Lander?  I think that we need to start bending metal on the Lunar
Lander soon.  




Offline simonbp

Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #37 on: 05/25/2007 09:40 PM »
Quote
copernicus - 25/5/2007  4:04 PM

 What are the prospects for launching this with the Ares-1 or the Atlas-5 or the Delta-4, perhaps with a partial propellant load on the Lunar Lander?  I think that we need to start bending metal on the Lunar Lander soon.  

Not much; the baseline full lander masses about 40 tonnes, and fits in a 8-meter faring. Even with empty tanks, it would still be too big for an Delta IV Heavy or Ares I or anything else but Ares V to launch. That means that first LSAM flown will probably on the first full-up Ares V...

Besides, if Ares V is canceled, we;re most likely not going to the moon... :(

Simon ;)

Offline mong'

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #38 on: 05/25/2007 09:50 PM »
and spending $$$ on LSAM right now would probably delay Orion even more

Offline kraisee

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Re: The new lunar lander
« Reply #39 on: 05/26/2007 09:57 PM »
Mong' is right.   While some very general planning is being looked at for the LSAM - and its cargo options - no significant money is being invested in the LSAM yet.

That comes from the cash which is made available only when STS has been retired.   Give it one year to shut down STS properly, and that will be when funding for LSAM really begins - 2011.

R.
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