Author Topic: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?  (Read 13230 times)

Offline Shuttle Scapegoat

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Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« on: 10/20/2005 09:20 PM »
You can add your own options, I want to see if everyone hates the Shuttle like it seems on some forums.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #1 on: 10/20/2005 09:27 PM »
Welcome to the site, one that doesn't hate Shuttles (on the whole, from what I've seen from the posters).

2010 - full 19 flights. I don't know if that's doable (see threads noting money issues etc.) but that's my "hope."

I don't think a logistics-only manifest for the STS program would gain support for me to scrap mission for the fleet now as I currently believe that in itself is a simply way of saying "Well, we'll end the program now then." and I don't see us not carrying on the ISS assembly missions up to the US core complete stage, personally.

One thing I am dead set against is for a end of flights right now as that would be a strange decision given the amount of case being spent yesterday, today and tomorrow while that decision has been mulled upon.

I am a big believer in the result of the STS program now having very little advancement of the timeline for the start of CEV flights and I also believe any gain in finances would go back to the US government, not NASA.

Offline Shuttle Scapegoat

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #2 on: 10/20/2005 09:30 PM »
I hold a very similar opinion! Although I think it would be such a dis-service to the Shuttles and the people that work and risk their lives on them for them to be simply doing flights to take out the crap from the ISS. That is not how I want to remember the last flights of the Shuttle.

Offline Bruce H

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #3 on: 10/20/2005 09:34 PM »
I think I'd be happy with the US core complete and a HSM. That is a non agressive timeline for the fleet to achieve while carrying out a very good end of lifetime mission. I know this affects our international partners, but I honestly can't see us sticking with 19 flights by 2010 when we've struggled to get 1 off in three years.

Offline tommy

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #4 on: 10/20/2005 09:37 PM »
I'm glad someone posted this poll as it's been in my mind for a while now. I think the US should show it can come back from a problem and indeed a tradegy by flying the full 19. This is what NASA used to be about before we got the over cautious media lover Griffin with his obvious hate for the Shuttle.

Offline Stardust9906

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #5 on: 10/20/2005 09:59 PM »
NASA should finish the ISS at least as much as can be done with 18 flights and fly the final Hubble Servicing Mission.  That would give the STS the fitting send off it deserves.

Offline Flightstar

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #6 on: 10/20/2005 11:37 PM »
We can do the 19 flights. The money issue is based on projected figures including worse case senarios (I'm informed, but not absoltuely sure).

Offline SRBseparama

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #7 on: 10/21/2005 01:49 AM »
I would like the 19 flights, but if that meant problems and a potential loss of an Orbiter, then I'm happy with the completion of the US core.

Offline Orbiter Obvious

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #8 on: 10/21/2005 01:52 AM »
I would like all 19, but if they are going to use the Shuttle for being a very expensive delivery truck and garbage van, then no. Let's retire them on a high. I would not like that second option though!

Offline Shuttle Man

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #9 on: 10/21/2005 02:16 AM »
Quote
Flightstar - 20/10/2005  6:37 PM

We can do the 19 flights. The money issue is based on projected figures including worse case senarios (I'm informed, but not absoltuely sure).

Very correct. One should ignore media propoganda.
Ex-Apollo, waiting for NASA to finish what we started.

Offline Shuttle Scapegoat

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #10 on: 10/21/2005 02:17 AM »
This is great! Keep it coming!

Offline Ad Astra

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #11 on: 10/21/2005 02:41 AM »
Now, or as soon as possible. Every day spent on these ships is another we loss to getting the CEV and actually exploring.

Offline Boris the Space Dog

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #12 on: 10/21/2005 02:45 AM »
After Core Assembley and 2010 - on target, after 19 flights, inc, HSM. I don't see the reasoning behind the other options.
Barking where no dog has barked before.

Offline James Lowe1

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #13 on: 10/21/2005 02:55 AM »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 20/10/2005  4:27 PM.

I am a big believer in the result of the STS program now having very little advancement of the timeline for the start of CEV flights and I also believe any gain in finances would go back to the US government, not NASA.

A point lost on most Shuttle Bashers.

Offline Do Shuttles Dream

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #14 on: 10/21/2005 03:00 AM »
"After US Core Assembly of the ISS" if that means including a Hubble mission and also I voted for the 19 flights as it would be a very good thing for the United States to actually do something good for other parts of the world rather than bomb them for their oil.

Offline Sergi Manstov

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #15 on: 10/21/2005 03:12 AM »
I voted for 2010 as I do not wish to see the United States abandon the ISS.

Offline Firestarter

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #16 on: 10/21/2005 03:16 AM »
Take it nice and steady, complete the US core, service Hubble and retire with dignity. That's my take.

Offline Matty Picard

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #17 on: 10/21/2005 05:18 AM »
2010 and I can't see the timeline coming down for the CEV

Offline Andy L

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #18 on: 10/21/2005 06:30 AM »
Following the pattern here. 19 and 2010 or a relaxed schedule to take in just the US elements of the ISS on assembly.

Offline Tahii

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #19 on: 10/21/2005 06:42 AM »
I have voted "When the CEV is ready". All going well, that will be a year or three after the 19 flights + HSM, but I believe that if the CEV is delayed for a significant period of time, it would be nice to see the shuttle do a couple more missions. I know that this would require a lot of advanced planning and logistics, and will almost certainly never happen, but I'd love to see it happen.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #20 on: 10/21/2005 07:04 AM »
That makes it interesting...keeping the Shuttle potentially going till 2012/13. I wonder how the Shuttle Bashers would respond to that ;)

Offline FransonUK

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #21 on: 10/21/2005 07:17 AM »
I can't see Griffin going for anything past 2010. I just hope he's not such a big a fan of old style transport as he seems to be to try and do all he can to do anything BUT sell the Shuttle to the media. Sometimes I wonder if he works for or against NASA.
Don't ya wish your spaceship was hot like me

Offline JamesSpaceFlight

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #22 on: 10/21/2005 08:38 AM »
2010 in whatever capacity I'd say. It's very important - and Griffin's own words - that there isn't a large gap in no manned space flight for the US program.

Offline Tahii

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #23 on: 10/21/2005 08:53 AM »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 21/10/2005  7:04 PM

That makes it interesting...keeping the Shuttle potentially going till 2012/13. I wonder how the Shuttle Bashers would respond to that ;)
Not very kindly!

I wasn't saying keep it going, up to a point where the CEV is actually spaceworthy, just lets get the CEV's designed, built, build any new facilities, THEN retire the orbiters, and start thinking about pad modifications and the like. Something like 18 months of downtime in US Manned Spaceflight.

Offline Chris SF

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #24 on: 10/21/2005 11:08 AM »
2010. Once they are retired, they are gone. Three Orbiters, a hell of a lot of capability and it would be a gamble despite the current issues with the Shuttles.

Offline tommy

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #25 on: 10/21/2005 11:12 AM »
This poll is going the way I would have hoped. Ironically, on the Shuttle Basher havens like SDC they even came out on a recent poll hugely in support of the Shuttle. Ironically, more posts were against. Seems like there is a vocal minority in some places.

Offline SimonShuttle

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #26 on: 10/21/2005 01:01 PM »
Ok, who's the bright spark that put "Never" in there? Chris, get their IP and post their postal address so I can go round and laugh at them ;)

Offline anik

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #27 on: 10/21/2005 01:11 PM »
Quote
SimonShuttle - 21/10/2005  5:01 PM

Ok, who's the bright spark that put "Never" in there?

I am...

Offline SimonShuttle

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #28 on: 10/21/2005 01:14 PM »
Why? We can't keep flying them till the 25th Century. We'll have Warp Speed by then ;)

Offline Jason Sole

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #29 on: 10/21/2005 01:16 PM »
2010 for me, in any capacity. To retire now would end NASA as by the time the new president cancels the VSE, then what?

Offline anik

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #30 on: 10/21/2005 01:36 PM »
Quote
SimonShuttle - 21/10/2005  5:14 PM

Why? We can't keep flying them till the 25th Century. We'll have Warp Speed by then ;)

They can be repaired and modernized... ;)

I think that the Shuttle is one of the best manned spacecrafts... I do not want that they have ceased to fly and consequently has voted so...

P.S.: Many people will lose the work if Space Shuttle program will be closed... :(

Offline Dogsbd

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #31 on: 10/21/2005 03:47 PM »
Quote
anik - 21/10/2005  9:36 AM


P.S.: Many people will lose the work if Space Shuttle program will be closed... :(

Which is a good thing for the country, needing a army of people to keep the shuttle going is one reason for it's great expence. But hopefully the cut backs in personell can be done primarily through natural attrittion, IE people retiring. On the other hand those who will operate the SDLV's will come from the current STS workforce, just hopefully in smaller numbers.

Offline Avron

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #32 on: 10/21/2005 05:58 PM »
Quote
Tahii - 21/10/2005  2:42 AM

I have voted "When the CEV is ready". All going well, that will be a year or three after the 19 flights + HSM, but I believe that if the CEV is delayed for a significant period of time, it would be nice to see the shuttle do a couple more missions. I know that this would require a lot of advanced planning and logistics, and will almost certainly never happen, but I'd love to see it happen.

CEV, before STS retirement is what I intened.. hell so all it will take is a presidential override...
something to add to the next pres. election in the states..

Offline Ad Astra

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #33 on: 10/21/2005 09:09 PM »
Quote
anik - 21/10/2005  8:36 AM

Quote
SimonShuttle - 21/10/2005  5:14 PM

Why? We can't keep flying them till the 25th Century. We'll have Warp Speed by then ;)

They can be repaired and modernized... ;)

I think that the Shuttle is one of the best manned spacecrafts... I do not want that they have ceased to fly and consequently has voted so...

P.S.: Many people will lose the work if Space Shuttle program will be closed... :(

Problem is Anik, we can't do both the STS and CEV. STS is only LEO and we have to move on.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #34 on: 10/21/2005 09:14 PM »
Quote
anik - 21/10/2005  2:36 PM

P.S.: Many people will lose the work if Space Shuttle program will be closed... :(

This is true, although a huge amount of the STS workforce at KSC are ex-Apollo era guys due for retirement.

Offline GirlygirlShuttlefan

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #35 on: 10/21/2005 09:18 PM »
Hi. I believe the Shuttle is not suffering the issues that make the media and public believe it is faulty or is anymore dangerous than it's expected to be. I personally think that NASA is being over cautious and it is now the safest ship its ever been. People got used to it being routine and when it went wrong everyone gave a panic reaction and that is half the reason why some people want it to stop flying.

Finishing the 19 flights it is currently set to do would be a great way of proving some doubters and naysayers wrong.

Offline Ad Astra

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #36 on: 10/22/2005 03:14 AM »
But the cost is huge. $500 million a launch.

Offline Shuttle Scapegoat

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #37 on: 10/22/2005 03:29 AM »
Quote
Ad Astra - 21/10/2005  10:14 PM

But the cost is huge. $500 million a launch.

I don't think it's that much and I would also add that you would have nothing to compare it with. I keep hearing things about Soyuz and how it's cheaper, but you can not compare the two.

Offline Tahii

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #38 on: 10/22/2005 05:48 AM »
Quote
Ad Astra - 22/10/2005  3:14 PM

But the cost is huge. $500 million a launch.
I've just had a look at the Wikipedia, and they also tend to indicate a $500 Million launch cost, but they explain it more thoroughly:

"Even accounting for inflation, the launch costs on the original estimates should be about $100 million today. The remaining $400 million arises from the operational details of maintaining and servicing the Shuttle fleet, which have turned out to be tremendously more expensive than anticipated. Some of this can be attributed to operating beyond the 10-year anticipated lifespan of each Shuttle."

In other words, its wrong to say it costs $500 million per launch. Think of it as $100 million + maintanence.

Offline realtime

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #39 on: 10/22/2005 06:15 PM »
You're right, they are such different craft that it's hard to compare the two in any meaningful way.

Astronautix has it at $245 million at 6 flights/year, with an additional $63M "fly-away" unit cost, whatever that means.
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/shuttle.htm

And Soyuz is at $30-$50 million.
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/soyuzst.htm


Offline FransonUK

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #40 on: 10/22/2005 07:40 PM »
Yeah, if the Shuttle was just a crew transport, then they'd have a case.
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Offline Dogsbd

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #41 on: 10/23/2005 01:31 AM »
Quote
realtime - 22/10/2005  2:15 PM

You're right, they are such different craft that it's hard to compare the two in any meaningful way.

Astronautix has it at $245 million at 6 flights/year, with an additional $63M "fly-away" unit cost, whatever that means.
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/shuttle.htm

And Soyuz is at $30-$50 million.
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/soyuzst.htm

I wonder how much STS would cost to operate if all the folks involved in making it fly were making the wages that the Russian space industry folks are making? Probably only about 25% as much as it cost us, and that would cut the disparity between Soyuz cost and STS cost even more. And considering the capabilities of STS above and beyond Soyuz....




Offline SRBseparama

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #42 on: 10/23/2005 02:35 AM »
That is a good point. There is a huge difference in staff and support costs.

Offline realtime

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #43 on: 10/23/2005 02:54 AM »
I'm sure you're not suggesting the NASA staff is overpaid. ;)  

The difference in operating costs for Soyuz and STS boils down to this:  Soyuz is an expendable 3-person capsule.  Shuttle is a man-rated reusable heavy-lift spaceplane the size of a 737 that can carry almost as much cargo back from orbit as it can to LEO.  It takes a lot of highly skilled and motivated people to keep STS flying, and unless the goal is to demotivate that workforce and force them into the streets, they should be paid not exorbitantly, but well.

When optimizing, look for the biggest resource hog.  It's not the wages.  It's the basic STS system itself, which was a grand endeavor from which we learned a lot, but whose architecture was flawed by basic assumptions.  Side mounted crew vehicle.  No launch escape system.  High projected launch rates that turned out to be too optimistic.

The VSE will correct a lot of these, and the STS will be retired with honor.


Offline lmike

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #44 on: 10/23/2005 04:59 AM »
In here: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:GYL8_-q9b8AJ:www.nasa.gov/columbia/caib/PDFS/VOL6/H01.PDF+shuttle+workforce+size&hl=en , page 9., they mention that there are 16000 (3K NASA + 13K contractors)  people servicing the STS program every year.  At whatever wages, that's a lot...  The last 2 years produced 1 launch 'costing' about 8 billion dollars.


Offline realtime

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #45 on: 10/23/2005 05:27 AM »
$4 billion/year divvied among 16000 mouths...  Hey, any of you NASA dudes making $250K?

Actually, for a typical employee, 40-50% of costs are going to be benefits -- medical, etc.  Hmmm.  Add in hardware, expendables.  Maybe I shouldn't dismiss the personnel costs so fast.  It'd be nice to see a breakdown.

Still, NASA has said that it doesn't expect to greatly reduce its workforce after STS.  They intend to use them for VSE development and missions.  I don't know if that's a little white lie, or if they expect attrition to take care of the downsizing that's almost sure to come.


Offline realtime

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #46 on: 10/23/2005 05:48 AM »
Budget request summary for NASA FY06-FY10.

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/107493main_FY_06_budget_summ.pdf

What do these numbers tell us?  Looks like one shuttle will be retired in 2007-2008, with another to follow in 2009.  Either that or flights are reduced.  Even a single flight can greatly impact the bottom line, as you said.

Toward the bottom (SUM 1-20, page 21):

Quote
FY 2006 highlights include:

2.390 billion for salaries and benefits and $74.9 million for travel for 18,798 full time equivalent personnel.
Salaries are included in G&A or program direct costs as appropriate.
Looks like 14.5% of the budget is NASA workforce (all departments).   Does "full time equivalent" count contractor workforce?



Offline lmike

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #47 on: 10/23/2005 05:50 AM »
Of course, the fixed yearly expenses are only partially labor costs, but I think it's a substantial percentage of the total.  The one thing about the CEV advantages as far as it goes, is that the expendables+ (non-reusable?) capsules production can be more automated.  The STS requires, AFAIK, mostly high expertise, highly specialized, and mostly hand labor (I've read there are ~200 people spraying foam on the ETs, people going through the tiles by hand vs. a prefabricated bolt-on heat shield on the CEV, etc...)  That's expensive.

Offline realtime

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #48 on: 10/23/2005 05:56 AM »
Yep.  Consider that Russia throughout its collapse and retrenchment managed to continue its space program and run it on a shoestring.  There's a lot to be said for simplicity.


Offline Flightstar

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #49 on: 10/23/2005 03:49 PM »
Quote
realtime - 23/10/2005  12:48 AM

Budget request summary for NASA FY06-FY10.

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/107493main_FY_06_budget_summ.pdf

What do these numbers tell us?  Looks like one shuttle will be retired in 2007-2008, with another to follow in 2009.  Either that or flights are reduced.  Even a single flight can greatly impact the bottom line, as you said.

Toward the bottom (SUM 1-20, page 21):

Quote
FY 2006 highlights include:

2.390 billion for salaries and benefits and $74.9 million for travel for 18,798 full time equivalent personnel.
Salaries are included in G&A or program direct costs as appropriate.
Looks like 14.5% of the budget is NASA workforce (all departments).   Does "full time equivalent" count contractor workforce?


It shows how much NASA spends on managers and covering its own ass. Over 2 billion to MSFC as per usual.

Offline Avron

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #50 on: 10/24/2005 02:36 AM »
Quote
Flightstar - 23/10/2005  11:49 AM
It shows how much NASA spends on managers and covering its own ass. Over 2 billion to MSFC as per usual.

What does MSFC do ? Just manage the contracts? Do they have any say over JPL or are used by JPL?

Also note that most on the poll, follow the direction given by EH.. Bush..

Offline GirlygirlShuttlefan

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #51 on: 10/25/2005 11:28 PM »
Well I think that is pretty conclusive on the poll results so far.

Offline Flightstar

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #52 on: 10/26/2005 12:55 AM »
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GirlygirlShuttlefan - 25/10/2005  6:28 PM

Well I think that is pretty conclusive on the poll results so far.

As it should do, but that mirrors all recent polls in several areas. Shows the ones that do not respect the Shuttle simply are a vocal minority.

Offline ADC9

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #53 on: 10/26/2005 03:46 AM »
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Flightstar - 25/10/2005  7:55 PM

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GirlygirlShuttlefan - 25/10/2005  6:28 PM

Well I think that is pretty conclusive on the poll results so far.

As it should do, but that mirrors all recent polls in several areas. Shows the ones that do not respect the Shuttle simply are a vocal minority.

I've noticed that too. I'd expect this result here, but USA Today went with 75 per cent in favour of the Shuttle continuing to its normal end of life too.

Offline kraisee

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #54 on: 10/26/2005 03:57 AM »
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realtime - 23/10/2005  1:27 AM
Still, NASA has said that it doesn't expect to greatly reduce its workforce after STS.  They intend to use them for VSE development and missions.  I don't know if that's a little white lie, or if they expect attrition to take care of the downsizing that's almost sure to come.

I understand that 15-20% of NASA's current staff numbers (not sure about contractors) are actually due to retire within the next five years.

NASA says that natural workforce attrition will be plenty enough to trim the budgets by the amounts they'd like over that time.   Thus they aren't planning redundancies within NASA itself.

Of course it still necessitates a lot of reorganisation of current "personnel assets", but that seems well underway right now if KSC is any sort of guide.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline Chris Bergin

RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #55 on: 10/26/2005 09:08 AM »
I think it's a little higher than 15-20 per cent, but that is correct.

Offline UK Shuttle Clan

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #56 on: 10/26/2005 11:45 AM »
I think everyone who likes what the Shuttle has achieved knows it's time (2010) to retire them. I get very angry when people think we want them to stay forever. They had a job to do and they had it changed several times and still managed to do it successfully for over 100 flights plus. People are too fast to maon as if they are really safe and have problems when of course it is never safe, and neither with the CEV be.

Offline GirlygirlShuttlefan

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #57 on: 10/26/2005 01:16 PM »
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UK Shuttle Clan - 26/10/2005  6:45 AM

I think everyone who likes what the Shuttle has achieved knows it's time (2010) to retire them. I get very angry when people think we want them to stay forever. They had a job to do and they had it changed several times and still managed to do it successfully for over 100 flights plus. People are too fast to maon as if they are really safe and have problems when of course it is never safe, and neither with the CEV be.

Very well said.

I noticed someone put "after one HSM". Does that person just want a flight to the Hubble. Personally I think we shouldn't even bother with Hubble. Why risk a crew for a telescope that won't be around soon anyway!

Offline Dogsbd

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #58 on: 10/26/2005 04:00 PM »
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GirlygirlShuttlefan - 26/10/2005  9:16 AM

I noticed someone put "after one HSM". Does that person just want a flight to the Hubble. Personally I think we shouldn't even bother with Hubble. Why risk a crew for a telescope that won't be around soon anyway!


Exactly, in my view the HSM is the least important and therefore most expendable mission being considered.

Offline t walker

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #59 on: 10/26/2005 04:21 PM »
I think that the ISS is very important. We need that stepping stone and outpost. If 18 flights are needed to finish it, then 18 flights it should get.

As for hubble, well its already had STS-109 in 2002. Why does it need another so soon? :o  But if it really needs it so soon, I have no objection.

So I have voted for 19 flights by 2010 as planned.

Offline realtime

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #60 on: 10/27/2005 03:44 AM »
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GirlygirlShuttlefan - 26/10/2005  9:16 AM
...
I noticed someone put "after one HSM". Does that person just want a flight to the Hubble. Personally I think we shouldn't even bother with Hubble. Why risk a crew for a telescope that won't be around soon anyway!
Kind of a circular statement, isn't it?  It won't be around soon if no one services it... ;)

Here are some reasons to keep it:

1. It is the only space-based visible-spectrum observatory we have.  The James Webb Space Telescope is an infrared-only instrument, and is scheduled for launch no earlier than June 2013.

2. It is a multi-billion dollar instrument at this point.  That's a lot of investment to casually throw away.

3. Astronauts know the risk of each mission.  Often, they are also scientists.  If you ask them, they will say it should be saved.  Shuttles are the safest ships they've ever been, and astronauts were lining up to fly Hubble missions even before all the safety mods.

4. It was just upgraded in 2002 with some new instruments.  The Advanced Camera for Surveys was installed.  This camera is capable of observing weather patterns on other planets in the solar system.  Mars, for instance.

5. The mission has been budgeted and the servicing hardware has been bought and paid for.

6. It's a gut-check.  If NASA can't even service Hubble in LEO, how the hell are they going to build bases on the Moon and Mars?

7. Influential members of the House of Representatives that serve on the committees that control NASA's budget would be really frakked.  Without their help, the VSE will be in real trouble, especially when Bush & Co. have been turned out of office in 2008.

8. Worse, Story Musgrave would be even more frakked than Barbara Mikulski!  AIEEEE!


Offline Tahii

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #61 on: 10/27/2005 03:44 AM »
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GirlygirlShuttlefan - 27/10/2005  1:16 AM
Personally I think we shouldn't even bother with Hubble. Why risk a crew for a telescope that won't be around soon anyway!
Eh?

It won't be around unless they do an HSM. If they do one, it will be around for a heck of a lot longer, I believe (at least until its replacement is launched).

Offline Dogsbd

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #62 on: 10/27/2005 03:28 PM »
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realtime - 26/10/2005  11:44 PM


1. It is the only space-based visible-spectrum observatory we have.  The James Webb Space Telescope is an infrared-only instrument, and is scheduled for launch no earlier than June 2013.

Well here is a ground based visible light scope that "should be capable of producing deep-space images with 10 times the clarity of the Hubble Space Telescope"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961/

And for the cost of servicing hubble again, we could build several more of these binocular scopes.


Offline kraisee

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #63 on: 10/27/2005 04:16 PM »
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GirlygirlShuttlefan - 26/10/2005  9:16 AM

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UK Shuttle Clan - 26/10/2005  6:45 AM

I think everyone who likes what the Shuttle has achieved knows it's time (2010) to retire them. I get very angry when people think we want them to stay forever. They had a job to do and they had it changed several times and still managed to do it successfully for over 100 flights plus. People are too fast to maon as if they are really safe and have problems when of course it is never safe, and neither with the CEV be.

Very well said.

I noticed someone put "after one HSM". Does that person just want a flight to the Hubble. Personally I think we shouldn't even bother with Hubble. Why risk a crew for a telescope that won't be around soon anyway!

The "after HSM" was me.   I honestly think HSM is the only mission worthy of another Shuttle Flight.   CEV will have a tough time performing that sort of mission because it won't have the cargo bay nor the manipulator arm.

The physical work of ISS construction on orbit could be done by CEV crews on ISS with the manipulator arm there - as long as the parts can be launched to rendezvous.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline realtime

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #64 on: 10/28/2005 02:48 AM »
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Dogsbd - 27/10/2005  11:28 AM

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realtime - 26/10/2005  11:44 PM


1. It is the only space-based visible-spectrum observatory we have.  The James Webb Space Telescope is an infrared-only instrument, and is scheduled for launch no earlier than June 2013.

Well here is a ground based visible light scope that "should be capable of producing deep-space images with 10 times the clarity of the Hubble Space Telescope"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961/

And for the cost of servicing hubble again, we could build several more of these binocular scopes.

And here is an ostensibly obsolete ground based telescope that was built in 1948 and is still being upgraded and used for meaningful science.

http://www.astro.caltech.edu/palomar/hale.html

Any astronomer would agree that you don't just throw these fine instruments away.


Offline Dogsbd

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RE: Poll: When should the Shuttle Retire?
« Reply #65 on: 10/28/2005 12:10 PM »
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realtime - 27/10/2005  10:48 PM

And here is an ostensibly obsolete ground based telescope that was built in 1948 and is still being upgraded and used for meaningful science.

http://www.astro.caltech.edu/palomar/hale.html

Any astronomer would agree that you don't just throw these fine instruments away.

I would hazard a guess that keeping Palomar going costs only fractions of what the HSM would cost.

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