-
#380 by Rob in KC on 13 Feb, 2006 22:49
-
Thanks, that's been on my mind for years.
-
#381 by mkirk on 13 Feb, 2006 23:39
-
A side note: The SSP (space shuttle program) went pretty far toward adopting the EAPU (electric auxilliary power unit). This was a shuttle upgrade that was officially taken off the table when the decision to stop flying shuttles by 2010 was made. After that it didn't make sense to spend the money on the change.
Mark -
#382 by Ben E on 17 Feb, 2006 22:38
-
Presumably also the upgrades such as 'smart cockpits' have gone now, too? Will NASA use any of this technology for the CEV?
-
#383 by Jim on 18 Feb, 2006 14:21
-
The CEV is a new start, any technology that is available will be use. It will be up to the contractors and NASA's requirements in the RFP
-
#384 by Firestarter on 18 Feb, 2006 18:04
-
Quote
Ben E - 17/2/2006 5:38 PM
Presumably also the upgrades such as 'smart cockpits' have gone now, too? Will NASA use any of this technology for the CEV?
I'm sure they could utlize some of the realiable elements of the Orbiters? Flight experience etc? -
#385 by Jim on 18 Feb, 2006 23:31
-
Quote
Firestarter - 18/2/2006 1:04 PM
QuoteBen E - 17/2/2006 5:38 PMPresumably also the upgrades such as 'smart cockpits' have gone now, too? Will NASA use any of this technology for the CEV?
I'm sure they could utlize some of the realiable elements of the Orbiters? Flight experience etc?
Shuttle was 70's technology and had trouble with maintaining expertise in outdated systems. CEV will have state of the art avionics. Not much from the shuttle is applicable to the CEV
-
#386 by Chris Bergin on 19 Feb, 2006 10:53
-
I heard a lot of praise for the Orbiter GPCs, given the way their programming is practically bug free from years of use. Maybe there's lessons in that, given we've all had an older reliable computer, compared to a service pack hell Windows?
-
#387 by Jim on 19 Feb, 2006 13:00
-
Problem with the GPC's was the language. Nobody uses it. It was hard keeping people "fluent" in it. The actual CPU's are used in the B-1B also.
For OSP, they were looking at the computers used in the 777.
A computer that is used in other porgrams would have the benefits of a logistics pipeline, larger population to study failures, personnel experience, etc
-
#388 by mkirk on 20 Feb, 2006 00:44
-
Quote
Do Shuttles Dream - 17/2/2006 5:58 PM
This is awesome. So many things I've always wanted to know and now getting to know!
Question. Nine readout displayes. Two on the right and two on the left look the same, and I suppose that's so the pilot and commander aren't looking over each other for info readouts.
What's the five in the middle? General Purpose Computers I bet? What's the upward curving line showing?
Bump from another forum thread.
Here are a couple of pictures of the front office of the orbiters. ONLY TRUE SHUTTLE GEEKS NEED TO READ ANY FURTHER.
The 9 screens on the front console are called MFD (multi function displays) and were installed as part of the “Glass Cockpit Upgrade” or MEDS (multifunction electronic display system). All of the orbiters now have this. With these MFDs any display is available on any screen. However in practice 3 of the 5 MFDs on the center console (between the pilot and commander) are laid out in the same manner as the old cockpit. It was on this panel that the three CRTs used to display information from the GPCs (general purpose computers) were located. The left top screen was called CRT 1, the top right was CRT 2, and the center was called CRT 3. The same naming convention is used on these screens today even though they could be displayed anywhere.
There are over 100 different GPC displays available to the CRTs that give trajectory information, systems status, and so on. The other 6 MFDs are used to display digital versions of the old analog gauges (often called the “steam gauges”).
In the big picture you can see the cockpit set up as if the orbiter just landed. The primary flight instruments are in front of the commander and pilot. CRT 1 is showing the Horizontal Situation Display which is a God’s eye view of the HAC (heading alignment cone) and touchdown point. CRT 2 shows the Vertical Situation Display which is a profile view of the approach trajectory. CRT 3 shows the backup flight computers version of the same Vertical Situation Display. The other two MFDs on the center console show the SPI (surface position indicator) on the lower left and the APU/hydraulic gauges on the lower right.
AEPFD, the 3rd picture (description):
This is a composite version of the displays on the two screens in front of the commander and pilot. The two screen version is generally not used. I always preferred the composite version because it makes cross checking the instruments easier (i.e. less eye movement)
This Picture shows from left to right on the top half: the airspeed tape in knots (279) with mach number in the square box below it, the alpha or angle of attack (9.
, the 8 ball which shows a left bank of 53 degrees and a nose down pitch of 24 degrees, the H tape shows altitude in thousands of feet (24,000) and the next one called H-dot, shows vertical velocity in feet per second (-315).
The Bottom half shows the G-meter (1.6), the HSI (heading selector indicator…basically a compass with current heading (311 degrees) the selected runway is Northrup 17 (which is at Whitesands) and the left scale is the glide slope.
If you want to know about the others just ask. I don't want to write a novel on this post unless people are interested.
Mark
-
#389 by Jonesy STS on 20 Feb, 2006 16:57
-
Seriously appreciate this answer. Always wanted to know what the screens were.
-
#390 by STS Tony on 20 Feb, 2006 17:37
-
Mark, this is awesome. Thank you.
Are the alarm warnings above CRT3 on these pictures?
-
#391 by Jim on 20 Feb, 2006 17:58
-
yes, that is the C&W display (Caution and Warning)
-
#392 by mkirk on 20 Feb, 2006 19:00
-
Quote
STS Tony - 20/2/2006 12:37 PM
Mark, this is awesome. Thank you.
Are the alarm warnings above CRT3 on these pictures?
Yes. Here is a look at the Caution & Warning lights in this picture. The lights are just a small portion of the overall warning system. There are about a 150 fault messages ( I am too lazy to count so that could be a low ball guess) that can be anunciated by the GPCs (general purpose computers) either in conjunction with or independent of the lights.
In training you get so used to all the warnings going off that there is a real danger of missing important life threating cautions. When the master caution sounds/illuminates the normal response is to silence the alarm by pushing the MASTER CAUTION light button on the eyebrow panel (i.e. dashboard above the flight instruments), and then looking at the actual warning on the light panel and on the CRT for the GPC. After a lot of training a crew member can almost react in a Pavlovian manner by pushing the button the second the alarm sounds. Sneaky training instructors will usually create problems that occur almost simultaneosly in an attempt to see if the crewmember reacts to one problem without realizing there were maybe 1 or 2 more.
Every one falls for it at some point Astronauts and Instructors both.
Not all warnings are serious, some are expected advisories...the hard part of training is learning to be able to distinguish between "no problem" and "you are having a really bad day".
During the countdown for launch at about T-2 minutes 30 seconds you will hear a call from the Launch Control Center to the crew to "clear the caution and warning memory". The crew will look at the message buffer and make sure that the 5 or 6 messages that occured during the count were the expected ones and then they will clear the buffer so that any portential new warnings during launch are not confused with ones already in the system.
Some trivia:
During the very last "integrated ascent entry simulation" with the mission control team...typically the day before the crew heads to the Cape from Houston...the instructors will usually let the crew have a mild/normal last run (normally a sim will have 4-5 runs total during the session) where nothing goes very wrong. This sim is kind of a dry run of the launch and allows the crew to end there training on a positive note. At the very end it is tradition for the instructors to light up that quare matrix in such a way that the lights that are illuminated, spell out the mission number (ex 88 for STS-88). This has gotton more difficult to do now that the program is well into the tripple digits.
Mark
-
#393 by Chris Bergin on 20 Feb, 2006 19:45
-
No wonders this thread jumped by 400 page views in a few hours.
Here's a question Mark, going off what we're seeing in front of us here CWF7 lights, what would Commander Collins of been seeing for her to call back on the loop, during STS-93: "This is Columbia, we're in the roll, we've got a fuel cell (glitch) level one."
Top middle on the panel? (Fuel Cell Reac)
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=442&start=1
Fascinating stuff
-
#394 by Jamie Young on 20 Feb, 2006 22:28
-
Is there a similar sort of display at JSC so they can see what the commander and pilot are seeing in real time?
-
#395 by David AF on 20 Feb, 2006 22:34
-
Now this part of the thread is of great interest to me. Sure are impressive birds.
To compare, here's the inside of what I have to deal with. F-22 Raptor. Awesome bird.
-
#396 by psloss on 20 Feb, 2006 22:41
-
Quote
Chris Bergin - 20/2/2006 3:45 PM
I'm interested in Mark's reply, too, because I'd like to know more about how this was "anunciated" to the crew, but I believe that what the CDR said was "...we've got a fuel cell pH number one" -- which I would assume to be a pH "message," but the shuttle folks would know whether this was caution and warning or something else.
No wonders this thread jumped by 400 page views in a few hours.
Here's a question Mark, going off what we're seeing in front of us here CWF7 lights, what would Commander Collins of been seeing for her to call back on the loop, during STS-93: "This is Columbia, we're in the roll, we've got a fuel cell (glitch) level one."
From the MER reports at JSC's web site:
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/news/columbia/STS-93_launch_report.pdfQuoteApproximately 5 seconds after the liftoff of the vehicle, an electrical short of
approximately 0.5-second duration occurred on AC bus 1. Coincident with the short, the
SSME 1 (center engine) controller A and the SSME 3 (right engine) controller B were
disqualified. Post ascent, the crew was asked to check the SSME controller circuit
breakers on panel L4 and they reported that none had opened.
Data evaluation indicated that the short had occurred on phase A of AC bus 1. An
extensive review of the Orbiter components that were being powered by AC bus 1
during the event was performed. This review showed that there were effects of the
resulting AC bus 1 undervoltage caused by the short, but all of the Orbiter equipment
operating at the time of the short operated nominally following the short. One of the
effects seen was the high pH indication received by fuel cell 1 when the sensor
performed a self test that was initiated by the undervoltage transient.
During flight day 3, the crew reported that the AC bus 1 phase A circuit breaker for
SSME 1 controller A was actually open and transmitted photographs of the circuit
breaker to the ground.
(My emphasis)
Philip Sloss -
#397 by psloss on 20 Feb, 2006 23:01
-
Quote
mkirk - 20/2/2006 3:00 PM
These discussions always remind me of the legend of the Apollo 12 launch, which electrically discharged itself a couple of times in the first minute of launch. Can't find the exact reference, but I thought I read somewhere that after the two "lightning strikes," either Dick Gordon or Alan Bean said to Pete Conrad about the caution and warning display lights "they're all on." (Not much help when they're all on!) Here's a quote I found online from (sad to say 'late') Pete Conrad:
Not all warnings are serious, some are expected advisories...the hard part of training is learning to be able to distinguish between "no problem" and "you are having a really bad day".
http://www.pcug.org.au/~jsaxon/space/book/After11.htmQuoteConrad: "I had a pretty good idea what had happened. I had the only window at the time the booster protector covered the other windows and I saw a little glow outside and a crackle in the headphones and, of course, the master caution and warning came on immediately and I glanced up at the panel and in all the simulations they had ever done they had never figured out how to light all eleven electrical warning lights at once by Golly, they were all lit, so I knew right away that this was for real.
(I can almost picture him saying this with a smile on his face...)
Philip Sloss
-
#398 by STS Tony on 21 Feb, 2006 00:04
-
Wow, thanks for the close up.
Seems like an awfully large amount of things to look at during flight. How long does it take to train someone to be competent in 'flying an Orbiter'? Is it the hardest 'plane' to learn? -
#399 by mkirk on 21 Feb, 2006 01:04
-
Quote
Jamie Young - 20/2/2006 5:28 PM
Is there a similar sort of display at JSC so they can see what the commander and pilot are seeing in real time?
Yes the flight controllers can see the same data and a whole lot more. There is an enormous amount of data downlinked that the crew can not see, this is why MCC (the mission control center) plays such a crucial role in mission operations. They really do function as an integrated part of the "crew concept" allbeit from the ground. In the MCC there are various dispalys and formats; some mimic the crew displays, some are in table form, some come out in graph or strip charts form, and in many cases they can be set up in a, system specific, schematic format.
The first picture I attached is of the FLIGHT DIRECTOR CONSOLE, in this case Leroy Cain: on the left screen you can see a table like display that shows data for various subsystems. At the top of the screen, it looks like he as the scrolling list of GPC inputs by the crew...this shows every key stoke the crew members make into the computers. On the right hand side of the right screen you can see a display that mimics the 8 ball (artificail horizon) just like in the cockpit. Under that are copies of the tapes that the crew has for airspeed, altitude, angle of atack, veritival velocity and so on.
In the second picture you see Ken Ham, "Hawk" and Rick Sturckow, "C J" siting at the CAPCOM CONSOLE. In front of Hawk you see a similar set up. He also has the cockpit tapes up in the upper right corner.
Out of frame to the right of CJ are two more screens in which he has the same type of displays as well as on board GPC versions of the Horizontal and Vertical situation displays.
You may also notice a lot of orange matrix displays at everyones console; this is the DVIS (digital voice information system) and it allows each controller to select the loops he/she wants to monitor and at what relative volume level. By my count it looks like Hawk has nine different communications loops dialed up.
I wish I had some better copies of these displays with me on my laptop...maybe I can dig them out at a later date.
Mark
, the 8 ball which shows a left bank of 53 degrees and a nose down pitch of 24 degrees, the H tape shows altitude in thousands of feet (24,000) and the next one called H-dot, shows vertical velocity in feet per second (-315).