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#840
by
Targeteer
on 17 Jul, 2024 18:54
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Butch is in Starliner and it sounds like the ground is trying to recover the CO2 sensor I reported failed off scale high previously in the thread through the tried and true method of repeated power cycles....
A CO2 sensor is a small device, taking up very little space and mass. It is unconscionable, to me, that there is only 1 on the spacecraft, when a backup would be so easy to install. It is a life support critical item. WHY is there only 1?
If only someone had asked that question during the last telemedia conference... Hopefully the next one.
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#841
by
Vettedrmr
on 17 Jul, 2024 19:21
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Butch is in Starliner and it sounds like the ground is trying to recover the CO2 sensor I reported failed off scale high previously in the thread through the tried and true method of repeated power cycles....
A CO2 sensor is a small device, taking up very little space and mass. It is unconscionable, to me, that there is only 1 on the spacecraft, when a backup would be so easy to install. It is a life support critical item. WHY is there only 1?
Starliner might very well have multiple sensors; they're just trying to recover it so they haven't lost one level of redundancy on the return trip. Not saying they do, just that they might, and it still fit the language used.
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#842
by
clongton
on 17 Jul, 2024 19:49
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Butch is in Starliner and it sounds like the ground is trying to recover the CO2 sensor I reported failed off scale high previously in the thread through the tried and true method of repeated power cycles....
A CO2 sensor is a small device, taking up very little space and mass. It is unconscionable, to me, that there is only 1 on the spacecraft, when a backup would be so easy to install. It is a life support critical item. WHY is there only 1?
Starliner might very well have multiple sensors; they're just trying to recover it so they haven't lost one level of redundancy on the return trip. Not saying they do, just that they might, and it still fit the language used.
Does anyone here on the forum know how many CO2 sensors are installed on Starliner?
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#843
by
SoftwareDude
on 17 Jul, 2024 20:04
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Butch is in Starliner and it sounds like the ground is trying to recover the CO2 sensor I reported failed off scale high previously in the thread through the tried and true method of repeated power cycles....
A CO2 sensor is a small device, taking up very little space and mass. It is unconscionable, to me, that there is only 1 on the spacecraft, when a backup would be so easy to install. It is a life support critical item. WHY is there only 1?
Starliner might very well have multiple sensors; they're just trying to recover it so they haven't lost one level of redundancy on the return trip. Not saying they do, just that they might, and it still fit the language used.
Didn't they change the shelter in Starliner procedures because of the failure? I did hear them do that. So, it would seem like there is only one sensor.
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#844
by
ImperfectSense
on 17 Jul, 2024 20:13
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Butch is in Starliner and it sounds like the ground is trying to recover the CO2 sensor I reported failed off scale high previously in the thread through the tried and true method of repeated power cycles....
A CO2 sensor is a small device, taking up very little space and mass. It is unconscionable, to me, that there is only 1 on the spacecraft, when a backup would be so easy to install. It is a life support critical item. WHY is there only 1?
Starliner might very well have multiple sensors; they're just trying to recover it so they haven't lost one level of redundancy on the return trip. Not saying they do, just that they might, and it still fit the language used.
Didn't they change the shelter in Starliner procedures because of the failure? I did hear them do that. So, it would seem like there is only one sensor.
Or at least that the loss of one sensor causes them to no longer have required redundancy/safety margin? Like, maybe there are three sensors total, and use as a shelter requires all three?
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#845
by
sdsds
on 17 Jul, 2024 20:44
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Does anyone here on the forum know how many CO2 sensors are installed on Starliner?
My confidence in the NSF community gives me assurance the correct answer to the question you asked is, "Yes." ;-)
At least for reasonable interpretations of what "know" means. Is there any reasonable possibility the Starliner
design could have passed review without including CO2 sensor redundancy? Is there any reasonable possibility the CFT spacecraft is inconsistent with that design?
I'm fairly confident the answers to my questions are, "No." With total respect for clongton and the question he asked, it's likely information on the details of the Starliner ECLSS are company-proprietary. Someone clever and looking for leads could do some poking around for information about who the contractor might have sub-contracted work to, or who they procured parts from.
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#846
by
Lee Jay
on 17 Jul, 2024 22:07
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Does anyone here on the forum know how many CO2 sensors are installed on Starliner?
My confidence in the NSF community gives me assurance the correct answer to the question you asked is, "Yes." ;-)
At least for reasonable interpretations of what "know" means. Is there any reasonable possibility the Starliner design could have passed review without including CO2 sensor redundancy? Is there any reasonable possibility the CFT spacecraft is inconsistent with that design?
I'm fairly confident the answers to my questions are, "No." With total respect for clongton and the question he asked, it's likely information on the details of the Starliner ECLSS are company-proprietary. Someone clever and looking for leads could do some poking around for information about who the contractor might have sub-contracted work to, or who they procured parts from.
I don't have any knowledge of Starliner specifically, but it may be possible to have one CO2 sensor and still have redundancy. For example, perhaps there are other sensors that indirectly measure CO2 or assure that it's sufficiently low. For example, you might imagine that if the Lithium Hydroxide cannisters are not saturated and the air flow through them is measured and sufficient, the CO2 simply has to be at a safe level. My point is, there could be many ways to assure safety without having many sensors measuring the same thing.
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#847
by
OTV Booster
on 18 Jul, 2024 02:13
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Several years ago I read a NASA document on the procedure for opening a docking or birthing hatch (don't remember which).
It's a fairly involved procedure but the salient point is that among the tools stored at each hatch is a gas analyzer of some sort. After pressure and temperature are stabilized there is a port of some sort where the gas analyzer can be hooked up to get a sample from the craft on the other side before the hatch is opened.
Other than the fact the gizmo looked a bit like a DMM, no other details are rattling around my noggin. It is probably a GC (Gas Chromatograph) but this is only conjecture. I thought the document was downloaded but it's disappeared into the kipple.
Anyway, however it works, I can't believe it wouldn't detect CO2. Should work in a pinch. ISS would be down one analyzer but if there's one near every active hatch...
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#848
by
Asteroza
on 18 Jul, 2024 02:55
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Several years ago I read a NASA document on the procedure for opening a docking or birthing hatch (don't remember which).
It's a fairly involved procedure but the salient point is that among the tools stored at each hatch is a gas analyzer of some sort. After pressure and temperature are stabilized there is a port of some sort where the gas analyzer can be hooked up to get a sample from the craft on the other side before the hatch is opened.
Other than the fact the gizmo looked a bit like a DMM, no other details are rattling around my noggin. It is probably a GC (Gas Chromatograph) but this is only conjecture. I thought the document was downloaded but it's disappeared into the kipple.
Anyway, however it works, I can't believe it wouldn't detect CO2. Should work in a pinch. ISS would be down one analyzer but if there's one near every active hatch...
A portable one is probably battery powered and probably not intended for long term continuous use monitoring something though. It might be as simple as hooking up the charger cable close by to keep it running, but getting the data off it in a continuous manner might be an issue if it was intended for visual data display.
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#849
by
sdsds
on 18 Jul, 2024 04:08
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[...] it may be possible to have one CO2 sensor and still have redundancy. [...] there could be many ways to assure safety without having many sensors measuring the same thing.
Point taken, and thanks for the reply. Dissimilar redundancy applies to sensors, actuators and control systems alike.
Personally I am certain about crew
safety as regards carbon dioxide toxicity. A dissimilar system assuring safety might impose only minor
inconveniences on the crew.
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#850
by
edzieba
on 18 Jul, 2024 10:34
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It may also be that there are multiple redundant CO2 sensors as part of the capsule LSS for closed-loop control, but only one CO2 sensor that is independently addressable when the capsule system in not in operation (e.g. when connected to the ISS, with the ISS providing life support).
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#851
by
Herb Schaltegger
on 18 Jul, 2024 14:02
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Several years ago I read a NASA document on the procedure for opening a docking or birthing hatch (don't remember which).
It's a fairly involved procedure but the salient point is that among the tools stored at each hatch is a gas analyzer of some sort. After pressure and temperature are stabilized there is a port of some sort where the gas analyzer can be hooked up to get a sample from the craft on the other side before the hatch is opened.
Other than the fact the gizmo looked a bit like a DMM, no other details are rattling around my noggin. It is probably a GC (Gas Chromatograph) but this is only conjecture. I thought the document was downloaded but it's disappeared into the kipple.
Anyway, however it works, I can't believe it wouldn't detect CO2. Should work in a pinch. ISS would be down one analyzer but if there's one near every active hatch...
The baseline design was - and remained for many years - a manually operated Drager tube. Put the tube in the widget. Connect the widget to the sample line feedthrough into the vestibule, pump a measured amount of air from the feedthrough into the widget and through the Drager tube. Check the tube to see the concentration of whatever gas/contaminant you’re looking for (typically ppO2, ppCO2, ppCO, ammonia, and (I think?) one or more of the breakdown constituents of hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide (residue of thruster firings or result of leaks).
The Drager tubes may have been replaced with a portable GSMS at some point in the passing decades, but being fully manual and chemical in nature, they are probably still available as a backup. As I recall, however, even sealed tubes have a shelf-life so perhaps not.
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#852
by
KF3K
on 18 Jul, 2024 15:29
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Other than the fact the gizmo looked a bit like a DMM, no other details are rattling around my noggin. It is probably a GC (Gas Chromatograph) but this is only conjecture. I thought the document was downloaded but it's disappeared into the kipple.
It's likely something like this:
https://www.forensicsdetectors.com/collections/multigasWe use them on Earth to check confined spaces before entering.
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#853
by
racevedo88
on 18 Jul, 2024 17:14
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The baseline design was - and remained for many years - a manually operated Drager tube. Put the tube in the widget. Connect the widget to the sample line feedthrough into the vestibule, pump a measured amount of air from the feedthrough into the widget and through the Drager tube. Check the tube to see the concentration of whatever gas/contaminant you’re looking for (typically ppO2, ppCO2, ppCO, ammonia, and (I think?) one or more of the breakdown constituents of hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide (residue of thruster firings or result of leaks).
The Drager tubes may have been replaced with a portable GSMS at some point in the passing decades, but being fully manual and chemical in nature, they are probably still available as a backup. As I recall, however, even sealed tubes have a shelf-life so perhaps not.
Or we can go really old-school and bring a canary ( in tech speak Avian Gas Collector and Analyzer) with us :-)
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#854
by
FutureSpaceTourist
on 18 Jul, 2024 17:24
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https://twitter.com/commercial_crew/status/1813987699772342741 The latest #Starliner update:
✅ Teams with @NASA and @BoeingSpace completed ground hot fire testing at White Sands and are working to evaluate the test data and inspect the test engine.
✅ Integrated ground teams also are preparing for an in-depth Agency Flight Test Readiness Review, which will evaluate data related to the spacecraft’s propulsion system performance before its return to Earth. The date of the agency review has not yet been solidified.
✅ @NASA_Astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams continue to work alongside the Expedition 71 crew, conducting operations and science on @Space_Station.
More:
https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2024/07/18/nasa-boeing-complete-starliner-engine-testing-continue-analysis/NASA, Boeing Complete Starliner Engine Testing, Continue Analysis
NASA and Boeing engineers are evaluating results from last week’s engine tests at NASA’s White Sands Test Facility in New Mexico as the team works through plans to return the agency’s Boeing Crew Flight Test from the International Space Station in the coming weeks.
Teams completed ground hot fire testing at White Sands and are working to evaluate the test data and inspect the test engine. The ongoing ground analysis is expected to continue throughout the week. Working with a reaction control system thruster built for a future Starliner spacecraft, ground teams fired the engine through similar inflight conditions the spacecraft experienced on the way to the space station. The ground tests also included stress-case firings, and replicated conditions Starliner’s thrusters will experience from undocking to deorbit burn, where the thrusters will fire to slow Starliner’s speed to bring it out of orbit for landing in the southwestern United States. For a detailed overview of the test plans, listen to a replay of a recent media teleconference with NASA and Boeing leadership.
“I am extremely proud of the NASA, Boeing team for their hard work in executing a very complex test series,” said Steve Stich, manager, NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. “We collected an incredible amount of data on the thruster that could help us better understand what is going on in flight. Next, our team has moved into engine tear downs and inspections which will provide additional insight as we analyze the results and evaluate next steps.”
Integrated ground teams also are preparing for an in-depth Agency Flight Test Readiness Review, which will evaluate data related to the spacecraft’s propulsion system performance before its return to Earth. The date of the agency review has not yet been solidified.
NASA and Boeing leadership plan to discuss the testing and analysis work in detail during a media briefing next week. More information on the briefing will be made available soon.
While testing and analysis are happening on Earth, NASA astronauts Butch Wilmore, Starliner mission commander, and Suni Williams, mission pilot, are working alongside the Expedition 71 crew. The two participated in vein scans using the Ultrasound 2 device on Monday. Doctors on the ground monitored in real-time as the pair took turns imaging each other’s neck, shoulder, and leg veins. Afterward, Wilmore scanned the veins of fellow NASA astronaut Matthew Dominick, helping researchers understand how microgravity affects the human body.
Wilmore and Dominick also spent a portion of the day taking inventory of the food stored aboard the space station. Williams worked on a pair of studies, first exploring the use of microgravity to manufacture higher-quality optical fibers than on Earth. Williams also investigated using fluid physics, such as surface tension, to overcome the lack of gravity when watering and nourishing plants grown in space.
Follow the commercial crew blog, @commercial_crew on X, and commercial crew on Facebook for the latest mission updates.
Author Jason Costa
Posted on July 18, 2024
Categories Boeing, Commercial Crew, Commercial Spaceflight, Expedition 71, International Space Station, NASATags Butch Wilmore, CCP, CFT, Commercial Crew Program, Crew Flight Test, Starliner, Suni Williams
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#855
by
FutureSpaceTourist
on 19 Jul, 2024 05:19
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#856
by
ddspaceman
on 19 Jul, 2024 17:40
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Just an observation: In the past 24 hrs Sunita "Suni" Williams, Pilot of the Boeing Starliner Crew Flight Test, has past 365 days (1 year) accumulated time in orbit. Also, there are 3 others currently on ISS who can hope to pass this milestone before their current missions are over as well. Mike Barratt for example is just a little over 2 weeks away from 1 year accumulated time in space. Nikolai Chub and Tracy Caldwell-Dyson should get there (just barely) before their return flight.
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#857
by
FutureSpaceTourist
on 19 Jul, 2024 19:36
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#858
by
catdlr
on 23 Jul, 2024 19:28
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NASA, Boeing to Discuss Crew Flight Test Mission, Ground Testing [Jul 23]
Leadership from NASA and Boeing will participate in a media teleconference at 11:30 a.m. EDT Thursday, July 25, to provide the latest status of the agency’s Boeing Crew Flight Test mission aboard the International Space Station.
Audio of the media teleconference will stream live on the agency’s website:
https://www.nasa.gov/nasatv
Participants include:
Steve Stich, manager, NASA’s Commercial Crew Program
Mark Nappi, vice president and program manager, Commercial Crew Program, Boeing
Media interested in participating must contact the newsroom at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida no later than one hour prior to the start of the call at [email protected]. A copy of NASA’s media accreditation policy is online.
Engineering teams with NASA and Boeing recently completed ground hot fire testing of a Starliner reaction control system thruster at White Sands Test Facility in New Mexico. The test series involved firing the engine through similar in-flight conditions the spacecraft experienced during its approach to the space station, as well as various stress-case firings for what is expected during Starliner’s undocking and the deorbit burn that will position the spacecraft for a landing in the southwestern United States. Teams are analyzing the data from these tests, and leadership plans to discuss initial findings during the call.
NASA astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams arrived at the orbiting laboratory on June 6, after lifting off aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket from Space Launch Complex-41 at Cape Canaveral Space Force Station in Florida on June 5. Since their arrival, the duo has been integrated with the Expedition 71 crew, performing scientific research and maintenance activities as needed.
As part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, the mission is an end-to-end test of the Starliner system. Following a successful return to Earth, NASA will begin the process of certifying Starliner for rotational missions to the International Space Station. Through partnership with American private industry, NASA is opening access to low Earth orbit and the space station to more people, science, and commercial opportunities.
[edit: zubenelgenubi]
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#859
by
Targeteer
on 23 Jul, 2024 21:16
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NASA, Boeing to Discuss Crew Flight Test Mission, Ground Testing
Leadership from NASA and Boeing will participate in a media teleconference at 11:30 a.m. EDT Thursday, July 25, to provide the latest status of the agency’s Boeing Crew Flight Test mission aboard the International Space Station.
<snip>
Steve Stich, manager, NASA’s Commercial Crew Program
Mark Nappi, vice president and program manager, Commercial Crew Program, Boeing
So much for "we will do as much as we can to appear on camera for the next update". Another gripe. No Space Station rep to address the status of Crew 9/Cygnus launches after the Falcon 9 upper stage failure...