Author Topic: US Smallsat Launchers 2023  (Read 6902 times)

Offline edkyle99

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US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« on: 12/22/2023 11:25 pm »
2023 will end, it seems, with only one US smallsat launcher success, by Firefly Alpha FLTA003.  Four other launch attempts failed, one each by RS-1, Terran-1, LauncherOne, and Alpha FLTA004.  LauncherOne and Terran-1 have been retired (one due to company failure).  Astra's Rocket did not fly as that company fights to survive.

South Korea had two orbital smallsat successes this year, twice as many as the US.  India and Iran and North Korea all scored one smallsat launcher success.

New Zealand's Electron ended with eight orbital successes in nine attempts, along with one suborbital success.

Meanwhile, China has hosted, so far, 19 smallsat launches with 18 successes, by eight different launch vehicles

Not quite sure what to make of all this.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/23/2023 02:09 am by edkyle99 »

Online TheKutKu

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #1 on: 12/23/2023 02:03 am »
Based on recent NOTAM, there may be as much as 3 more (2xkZ-1A and 1xCeres-1) Chinese smallest launches before the end of the year.

« Last Edit: 12/23/2023 02:04 am by TheKutKu »

Offline lightleviathan

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #2 on: 12/23/2023 02:49 am »
US hasn't had much luck this year :(
I guess it depends if you count Rocket Lab as an American company or not (I do) but I digress.
« Last Edit: 12/23/2023 02:49 am by lightleviathan »

Offline seb21051

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #3 on: 12/23/2023 03:23 am »
|Meanwhile, China has hosted, so far, 19 smallsat launches with 18 successes, by eight different launch vehicles.

Not quite sure what to make of all this.|

If the US didn't have SX, you'd probably see a lot more smallsat launch variety. I think things are still shaking out in China. There are all kinds of companies in the mix there, including some NewSpace entities, following closely in SX's footstaps, in terms of Methalox, and Reuseability. I hear they are seriously thinking of >100 tonne payload capability as well. They did after all put the first Methalox rocket with payload successfully into orbit

https://www.youtube.com/@DongfangHour/videos
« Last Edit: 12/23/2023 03:29 am by seb21051 »

Offline edkyle99

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #4 on: 12/23/2023 03:12 pm »
I wonder how the money is flowing to the numerous smallsat launch companies in China.  Many appear to be allowed to use IRBM or ICBM solid motors and other technology - something that is not allowed in the US.  Two have flown interesting liquid propellant rockets, one of those using liquid methane fuel, but both are 3.35 meters in diameter, which happens to be the same diameter as the DF-5/CZ SAST designed launch vehicle family.

Meanwhile, in the US, two companies who actually made it to orbit have suffered financially.  One shut down altogether.  The other is hanging on but not flying at present.  Firefly itself had to be rescued at one point by non-US money. 

Rocket Lab is a success story, I think, because of its leadership, and some pretty good engineering.  Hopefully, like Rocket Lab, and even SpaceX in its early days, Firefly will work through its second stage problems.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/23/2023 03:19 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #5 on: 12/23/2023 04:28 pm »



Rocket Lab is a success story, I think, because of its leadership, and some pretty good engineering.  Hopefully, like Rocket Lab, and even SpaceX in its early days, Firefly will work through its second stage problems.

 - Ed Kyle
Lot of RL and SpaceX success is thanks to owners choosing right CEO. Adam Spice beside day to day running of RL is very good at M&A which is reason RL's space systems is what it is today. Beck vision was always to have strong SS division and chose right person to help achieve it.
Without SS division built from SPAC cash injection I suspect RL would be a struggling SLV company.





Offline trimeta

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #6 on: 12/23/2023 05:35 pm »



Rocket Lab is a success story, I think, because of its leadership, and some pretty good engineering.  Hopefully, like Rocket Lab, and even SpaceX in its early days, Firefly will work through its second stage problems.

 - Ed Kyle
Lot of RL and SpaceX success is thanks to owners choosing right CEO. Adam Spice beside day to day running of RL is very good at M&A which is reason RL's space systems is what it is today. Beck vision was always to have strong SS division and chose right person to help achieve it.
Without SS division built from SPAC cash injection I suspect RL would be a struggling SLV company.
Musk and Beck are the CEOs of SpaceX and Rocket Lab, respectively. Although if you were alluding to Shotwell (President/COO) and Spice (CFO), you're certainly correct that an effective leadership team is more than just the CEO.

Offline deltaV

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #7 on: 12/23/2023 05:37 pm »
2023 will end, it seems, with only one US smallsat launcher success, by Firefly Alpha FLTA003.

2023 will end with ~70 successful Falcon 9 launches where the primary payload was small satellites (mostly Starlink). SpaceX will have launched over 1000 small satellites this year with a combined mass of around 1000 tonnes. That's either ~70 or 1000+ "US smallsat launcher success[es]" depending on whether you're counting launches or satellites.

You presumably meant there's only been one "US small-launcher success" this year, with "small" modifying "launcher" rather than "satellite". The US is behind in small launchers if you don't count Rocket Lab or the many US small launchers that didn't have a successful launch this year but small launchers are serving a niche market at best so this isn't a problem. Remember that Falcon 1 and Terran 1 were US small launchers that were canceled due to the market being too small.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #8 on: 12/24/2023 03:25 am »
You presumably meant there's only been one "US small-launcher success" this year, with "small" modifying "launcher" rather than "satellite". The US is behind in small launchers if you don't count Rocket Lab or the many US small launchers that didn't have a successful launch this year but small launchers are serving a niche market at best so this isn't a problem. Remember that Falcon 1 and Terran 1 were US small launchers that were canceled due to the market being too small.
Makes me wonder why when it comes to China.  If there is no market, why?  It is obviously a huge effort there to facilitate development of all of these differing "responsive" smallsat launch vehicles.  They include this year Ceres 1, KZ-1A, Hyperbola 1, CZ-11, Jielon 3, Lijian 1, and the two liquid rockets Tianlong 2 and ZQ-2.  Others not on this list have flown in recent years.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/24/2023 03:27 am by edkyle99 »

Offline deltaV

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #9 on: 12/24/2023 04:28 am »
Makes me wonder why when it comes to China.  If there is no market, why?

The best reason to build small launchers may be as a warm-up exercise to train and test companies before you give them a bigger budget to build a bigger launcher. That's what Falcon 1 and Terran 1 ended up being used for and may be what China is up to. That may also be why Europe is building several small launchers.

Offline PM3

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #10 on: 12/24/2023 06:27 am »
Then why are ArianeGroup and Avio developing small launchers? And why is Electron so successful?

There is a market for launching smallsats to dedicated orbits. Not a huge market, but big enough for sustaining a few small launchers per continent.

Regarding the US vs. China thing: Space is hard, and you need extraordinary and highly motivated engineers and managers to build working orbital rockets. China has many of them. The US too, but most of them probably working for SpaceX ...?

On the bottom line, the top-notch "innovation race" is SpaceX vs. China. For rockets, for spaceships, and for interplanetary human spaceflight.
« Last Edit: 12/24/2023 06:48 am by PM3 »
"Never, never be afraid of the truth." -- Jim Bridenstine

Online TheKutKu

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #11 on: 12/24/2023 10:58 am »
Then why are ArianeGroup and Avio developing small launchers?

To be fair, their current projects are partially reusable small launchers.


Offline spacenut

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #12 on: 12/24/2023 12:16 pm »
Ariane is a government run business, which has far more bureaucracy and can't turn on a dime like private companies. 

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #13 on: 12/24/2023 12:35 pm »
Makes me wonder why when it comes to China.  If there is no market, why?

The best reason to build small launchers may be as a warm-up exercise to train and test companies before you give them a bigger budget to build a bigger launcher. That's what Falcon 1 and Terran 1 ended up being used for and may be what China is up to. That may also be why Europe is building several small launchers.
Also to get some expertise on non-hypergolic launchers with non-critical payloads.

Offline thespacecow

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #14 on: 12/24/2023 01:49 pm »
On the bottom line, the top-notch "innovation race" is SpaceX vs. China. For rockets, for spaceships, and for interplanetary human spaceflight.

Always has been....

"Our primary long-term competition is in China" - Elon Musk from 2012

A win for SpaceX is a win for the entire western world, a loss for SpaceX is a loss for the entire western world, it's sad many westerners are still in denial about this, time to wake up.
« Last Edit: 12/24/2023 01:54 pm by thespacecow »

Offline ringsider

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #15 on: 12/24/2023 04:30 pm »
Then why are ArianeGroup and Avio developing small launchers? And why is Electron so successful?

Avio and ArianeGroup are trying to hurt their local European competitors.

By building their own small launchers they make it harder for the new entrants to a) raise money and b) gain market share.

And that makes it harder for them to move to the heavier launcher domain, where they might take real money away from the governmental budgets flowing towards Ariane 6 and later Next.

That may be changing with Avio breaking out of Arianespace but not short term.

Electron is successful numerically, but doesn't yet break even financially does it?
« Last Edit: 12/24/2023 04:31 pm by ringsider »

Online TheKutKu

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #16 on: 12/24/2023 06:07 pm »
Makes me wonder why when it comes to China.  If there is no market, why?
That may also be why Europe is building several small launchers.

In Europe’s case there also was simply not the capability to make anything more than a small launcher in term of skills, infrastructure and test infrastructures outside of the established companies; at least within reasonable funding and timespan.

 50 years of Geographic return policy resulted in spread (and local specialisation) of capabilities which  is counterproductive to the emergence of vertically integrated newspace companies



And with the lesser public funding and VC investment in Europe there was no choice other than making small launcher.
« Last Edit: 12/24/2023 07:38 pm by TheKutKu »

Offline trimeta

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #17 on: 12/24/2023 10:53 pm »
Electron is successful numerically, but doesn't yet break even financially does it?
Lately Electron's revenues have exceeded its cost of revenues. That of course doesn't account for fixed costs like SG&A, let alone the original R&D that went into Electron, but it seems likely to me that going forward (especially with the planned cadence for 2024), Rocket Lab will make more money flying Electron than if they just cancelled that part of their business and focused solely on space systems and Neutron.

Offline deltaV

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #18 on: 12/25/2023 03:59 am »
Then why are ArianeGroup and Avio developing small launchers? And why is Electron so successful?

There is a market for launching smallsats to dedicated orbits. Not a huge market, but big enough for sustaining a few small launchers per continent.

ringsider has a good theory for what ArianeGroup and Avio are up to, namely trying to maintain their dominance of European medium launch by interfering with the emergence of small launcher companies who would likely build a larger vehicle later.

Currently there appear to be zero profitable western small launchers - Electron does not appear to be profitable yet. If someone such as Stoke or SpaceX gets full reuse working well the number of profitable small launchers will likely remain at zero. Otherwise there may be 1-2 profitable western small launchers in the future. I'm not seeing the hundreds of small launches per year of demand that would be required for "a few small launchers per continent" to make profits. Taxpayer subsides or dumb investors may support some non-profitable companies.

Offline seb21051

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Re: US Smallsat Launchers 2023
« Reply #19 on: 12/25/2023 06:14 am »
Interesting piece from China. Making much, amongst other things, of the fact that they were first to put 3 smallsats into orbit with a methalox rocket, and hinting that they have reused a booster:

It would seem they are intent on out-Eloning SX.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2023-12-24/Tech-Please-Getting-up-to-speed-with-China-s-reusable-rockets-1pNafmWOFGw/p.html
« Last Edit: 12/25/2023 06:21 am by seb21051 »

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