Author Topic: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A  (Read 400313 times)

Offline anik

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7423
  • Liked: 458
  • Likes Given: 287
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #480 on: 08/22/2010 09:52 PM »
did you look at that link? gagarins autograph was in 2 parts- the 2nd part was identicle to the first autograph on the card i have

Yes, I have looked at it. Wait, did you mean that autographs on two images below (see red rows) are identical? I do not think so.

Offline Greg6721

  • Member
  • Posts: 6
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #481 on: 08/22/2010 09:59 PM »
yes thats what i meant. i asked about the difference and the dealer told me it was "natural to have slight differences- write your name 100 times and see" im not so sure!

i will need to get further clarification i think. only thing i find strange is that he has offered me £1000 for it- why if its not gagarin?

i have sent out a few emails- hopefully someone will help me get to the bottom of things!

Offline Stan Black

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2925
  • Liked: 146
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #482 on: 08/24/2010 06:20 PM »
Venera-9 and Venera-10 are oftened listed as having started from the same launch platform; even an older document I downloaded from Khrunichev website shows this.

But this appears to be in error; the quickest turn around of a Proton launch site according to Novosti Kosmonavtiki was 11 days in 2000 [source].

Proton rocket lists:-
http://www.kosmonavtika.com/lanceurs/proton/liste/liste-tous.html
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_lau_fam/proton.htm

From this
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/content/numbers/212/12.shtml
the shortest gap between Proton launches was bettered in 2005?

1st LaunchDateTime2nd LaunchDateTimeTime Between Launches
Mars-421/07/197319:30:59Mars-525/07/197318:55:4895 hours 24 minutes 49 seconds
Mars-6 05/08/197317:45:48Mars-709/08/197317:00:1795 hours 14 minutes 29 seconds
Sirius-130/06/200022:08:46.977Kosmos-2371 04/07/200023:43:59.99697 hours 35 minutes 13 seconds
Kosmos-2417
Kosmos-2418
Kosmos-2419
25/12/200505:07:10Worldsat-3
AMC23
29/12/200502:28:40.01293 hours 21 minutes 30 seconds

Can some one confirm launch times for Almaz and Kosmos-2139/2140/2141; both in 1991? It looks like 91 hours between launches?

http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/content/numbers/177/tab2.pdf

Offline anik

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7423
  • Liked: 458
  • Likes Given: 287
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #483 on: 08/24/2010 06:46 PM »
Can some one confirm launch times for Almaz and Kosmos-2139/2140/2141; both in 1991? It looks like 91 hours between launches?

Almaz-1 - 31.03.1991 15:12:00 UTC
Kosmos-2139/2140/2141 - 04.04.1991 10:47:12 UTC
3 days 19 hours 35 minutes 12 seconds

Offline Colds7ream

  • Tomorrow's Flight Surgeon
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 188
  • Scientia Dabit Alas
  • RAF Akrotiri, Cyprus
    • SalopianJames - en Wikipedia
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #484 on: 08/26/2010 12:30 PM »
Would anyone know, by any chance, where I can get a higher resolution of this image, what date it was taken, and which orbiter and mission it was taken from? Many thanks. :-)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mir_entre_l%27espace_et_la_Terre.jpg

Offline Mark Dave

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1101
  • Ruined
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #485 on: 08/26/2010 01:39 PM »
In general I have been wondering why there isn't a movie made about any of this? Most of the films made  about space has NASA and the shuttle.

Offline Nicolas PILLET

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
  • Gien, France
    • Kosmonavtika
  • Liked: 447
  • Likes Given: 63
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #486 on: 08/26/2010 05:20 PM »
Would anyone know, by any chance, where I can get a higher resolution of this image, what date it was taken, and which orbiter and mission it was taken from? Many thanks. :-)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mir_entre_l%27espace_et_la_Terre.jpg

This picture was taken at the end of STS-79 mission, on september 24th, 1996.
Nicolas PILLET
Kosmonavtika : The French site on Russian Space

Offline Colds7ream

  • Tomorrow's Flight Surgeon
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 188
  • Scientia Dabit Alas
  • RAF Akrotiri, Cyprus
    • SalopianJames - en Wikipedia
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #487 on: 08/26/2010 05:25 PM »
Would anyone know, by any chance, where I can get a higher resolution of this image, what date it was taken, and which orbiter and mission it was taken from? Many thanks. :-)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mir_entre_l%27espace_et_la_Terre.jpg

This picture was taken at the end of STS-79 mission, on september 24th, 1996.

Thanks very much! ;) Now I know the mission number, I've been able to find the ID, so getting a hi-res image will be much, much easier! Thanks!
« Last Edit: 08/26/2010 05:28 PM by Colds7ream »

Offline Stan Black

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2925
  • Liked: 146
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #488 on: 08/29/2010 01:34 PM »
СОЗ vernier timings timings can be found in http://coopi.khrunichev.ru under ‘newsposting’.

That is a fabulous source. It surely is more detailed than I could have hoped for. It will likely help to narrow things down in a quiet hour. Thanks Stan Black.

Briz maximum burn time 1,000 seconds
http://www.eurockot.com/pb-pic/20041083.pdf
So if there is upto 14,600 kg in the extenal APT / ДТБ and the Briz core has up to 5,200 kg; then external tank should be able to provide 2,808 seconds of burn time?

- as per table 2-8 the propellant mass is 3300 + 1665 = 4995 kg
- adding the fuel required by the Verniers to produce the advertized total impulse of 4 x 141120 Ns one gets to about 5200 kg; that would explain where the figure 5200 comes from
- the given isp 325.5s and total impulse 2 x 10^7 Ns pin down the max. burn time to 797 s, where burn time = total impulse / (isp * g)
 
It would take 6.263 kg of propellants to produce a total impulse of 20 MNs. Table 2-5 in the Eurockot manual gives a total impulse of 2 x 107 Ns which is most likely a misprint in the exponent. Apart from that there is no free parameter to explain the discrepancy of 6263-4995=1268kg. This makes me believe that the max. burn time of 1000 s is an engine specification, rather than an actually achievable performance parameter in the given configuration.

One can extrapolate the increase in burn time based on an APT capacity of 14600 kg as (14600/4995) * 797 = 2330 s. Then the total burn time of the Breeze-M is 797 + 2330 = 3127 s, give or take a few seconds. Remember the assumption that the Breeze-KM numbers in the Eurockot manual dated Nov. 2004 are applicable to the Breeze-M as used with the Proton.

 The enhanced Briz-M has two 80 litre high-pressure tanks; are these only used by the 11D458M and 17D58E verniers?

Offline Stan Black

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2925
  • Liked: 146
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #489 on: 09/01/2010 05:41 PM »
 Since 1985 GLONASS launches with blok DM have seen the Proton deliver the DM into an initial 64·8° orbit. But when Briz-M was used the Proton-K headed into a sub-orbital -1,196·11 x 181·09 at 51°33’10”.

 Anyone know why that launch too did not head into a 64·8° degree orbit?

 And do you think next year the launch of Sirius FM-6 will follow, wheres the DM3 launches went into initial 64·8° orbits?

http://coopi.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=300

Offline ycs86

  • Member
  • Posts: 15
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #490 on: 09/05/2010 06:09 PM »
How come Russian launchers have some so many small rocket nozzles, whereas US launchers use only 1 or 2 big nozzles? Any explanations?

Offline ycs86

  • Member
  • Posts: 15
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #491 on: 09/05/2010 06:45 PM »
How come Russian launchers have some so many small rocket nozzles, whereas US launchers use only 1 or 2 big nozzles? Is it because Russia does not have the knowledge or technology to produce big nozzles? Like those SSMEs? Back then, N1 rockets had many nozzles, now Soyuz launchers also have so many small nozzles. Why not use big ones and not several small ones on one launcher? Any explanations?   :-\

Offline Stan Black

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2925
  • Liked: 146
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #492 on: 09/05/2010 07:01 PM »
 It’s an old design. You are only looking at five engines. A big pump feeding several combustion chambers. Original intention was for a single big chamber per blok/stage but suffered from combustion stability problems. The verniers (the small nozzles) are for steering.

 Timothy Varfolomeyev wrote some good articles on the R-7 in Spaceflight magazine from the B.I.S.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22540.0

 Such a solution was also used for the Zenit rocket; the RD-171 engine.

 N1’s engines came about from a dispute. Check out ‘Space Race’ from the B.B.C.
« Last Edit: 09/05/2010 07:05 PM by Stan Black »

Offline pathfinder_01

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1923
  • Liked: 76
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #493 on: 09/06/2010 01:12 AM »
Combustion instability. Basically large combustion cambers are very prone to this. The US masted how to make large rocket combustion cambers before the Soviets.However the Russians do not throw out a good working rocket quite as much as the US and so you see the same rockets in use 40-50 years latter.

Offline Space Pete

Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #494 on: 09/06/2010 02:31 AM »
If you are refering to the smaller nozzles around the edges of the main engines, then those are called vernier thrusters. On US rockets, the main engines typically gimbal to steer the rocket. On Russian rockets, the main engines are typically fixed and the smaller verniers move (in two planes - up/down, left/right) to steer the rocket.
NASASpaceflight ISS Editor

Offline Alpha_Centauri

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 630
  • England
  • Liked: 222
  • Likes Given: 133
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #495 on: 09/06/2010 09:48 AM »
Combustion instability. Basically large combustion cambers are very prone to this. The US masted how to make large rocket combustion cambers before the Soviets.However the Russians do not throw out a good working rocket quite as much as the US and so you see the same rockets in use 40-50 years latter.

This.
« Last Edit: 09/06/2010 10:26 AM by Alpha_Centauri »

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8654
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1125
  • Likes Given: 245
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #496 on: 09/07/2010 04:12 PM »
However the Russians do not throw out a good working rocket quite as much as the US and so you see the same rockets in use 40-50 years latter.

Don't know, The RL-10 is the workhorse of US upper stages and it dates back to the 60's. The AJ-10 (Delta II upper, Shuttle OMS, Apollo CSM) dates back to Vanguard. The main engine of the pre RD-180 Atlas and Delta II's came from the Navaho Intercontinental Cruise Missile program.

It's only with the EELV, and new COT's launchers (Falcon 9, Taurus II) that new rocket engines have been adopted. Before that the last major change was the SSME back in the early 1980's.

If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline Stephan

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 565
  • Paris
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #497 on: 09/07/2010 06:26 PM »
Block DM seem to leave two "aux motor" in orbit according orbital elements (see last Glonass launch).
Nicolas and I were discussing if it was the "SOZ" motors (used on block DM for ullage), but we can't find any info about jettisoning them.

Question is : what are these "aux motor" ?

(pictures from http://www.kosmonavtika.com/lanceurs/proton/partie2/4.html )
Best regards, Stephan

Offline Nickolai

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #498 on: 09/07/2010 09:03 PM »
It's good that you recognize them as nozzles and not engines. Like Stan Black said, there are only 5 engines there, and the Soyuz design is pretty old.

Splitting up an engine into multiple combustion chambers + nozzles helps with combustion stability, but it does hurt your thrust to weight ratio. Of course, if your single chamber rocket keeps exploding it doesn't really matter what its T/W is!

It's not a question of know-how or technology, just look at the RD-0120 (Russian version of the SSME).
« Last Edit: 09/07/2010 09:03 PM by ntrgc89 »

Offline Stan Black

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2925
  • Liked: 146
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Soviet/Russian space programs Q&A
« Reply #499 on: 09/08/2010 06:51 PM »
Block DM seem to leave two "aux motor" in orbit according orbital elements (see last Glonass launch).
Nicolas and I were discussing if it was the "SOZ" motors (used on block DM for ullage), but we can't find any info about jettisoning them.

Question is : what are these "aux motor" ?

(pictures from http://www.kosmonavtika.com/lanceurs/proton/partie2/4.html )

The SOZ are the auxiliary motors?

Tags: