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#240 by Danderman on 19 Jul, 2008 17:04
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Concerning Cosmos 21:
Why would the Soviets not wait until the Moon were accessible to Baikonur to launch Cosmos 21? Surely, their schedule could have accommodated a launch delay of a couple of weeks until the Moon could be photographed by Cosmos 21? There must be more to the story. Perhaps the spacecraft camera was dead prior to launch, and the mission planners wrote off the lunar mission.
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#241 by Phillip Clark on 19 Jul, 2008 18:53
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If Cosmos 21 was going to fly to the Moon with launch on November 11, 1963 then the launch would simply have been at the time of day when the lunar GHA was in the range which the mission parameters dictated. No need to delay to another day because of that.
The launch time was similar to the times used for missions to Venus (although at the time there was not a Venus launch window open - that would be Feb-Apr 1964), so it would seem reasonable that the Soviets were simulating a Venus launch for tracking and telemetry reliability tests, without an actual physical target intended. -
#242 by Kaputnik on 16 Aug, 2008 17:48
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A few questions:
1) Is the RD0120 a viable engine for future use? i.e. was tooling preserved, and are there any flight-ready units in storage?
2) On a different topic, would it be possible for Russia to 'domesticate' the Zenit booster, i.e. clone the design for its own use, as an alternative to developing the Angara Proton replacement. -
#243 by Danderman on 17 Aug, 2008 00:12
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A few questions:
1) Is the RD0120 a viable engine for future use? i.e. was tooling preserved, and are there any flight-ready units in storage?
2) On a different topic, would it be possible for Russia to 'domesticate' the Zenit booster, i.e. clone the design for its own use, as an alternative to developing the Angara Proton replacement.
I am sure that the answer is "sure, if you have the money to pay to take it out of storage". The second answer is similar, "sure if you are willing to pay for it, anything is possible".
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#244 by Kaputnik on 18 Aug, 2008 20:46
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A few questions:
1) Is the RD0120 a viable engine for future use? i.e. was tooling preserved, and are there any flight-ready units in storage?
2) On a different topic, would it be possible for Russia to 'domesticate' the Zenit booster, i.e. clone the design for its own use, as an alternative to developing the Angara Proton replacement.
I am sure that the answer is "sure, if you have the money to pay to take it out of storage". The second answer is similar, "sure if you are willing to pay for it, anything is possible".
OK, I'll rephrase that.
Given that is appears to be economically feasible to use the existing stock of NK33 engines, could the RD0120 stock be used in a similar manner, if there was such a need? And how big is the stock?
Secondly, noting that Russia already produces the first and second stage engines, and the whole of the 3rd stage, of the Zenit rocket, I'm curious about whether they could clone the remaining parts of the vehicle as an alternative to the Angara development. Of course Ukraine might not be too happy about that- do they have intellectual property rights? -
#245 by Danderman on 18 Aug, 2008 21:04
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OK, I'll rephrase that.
Given that is appears to be economically feasible to use the existing stock of NK33 engines, could the RD0120 stock be used in a similar manner, if there was such a need? And how big is the stock?
Secondly, noting that Russia already produces the first and second stage engines, and the whole of the 3rd stage, of the Zenit rocket, I'm curious about whether they could clone the remaining parts of the vehicle as an alternative to the Angara development. Of course Ukraine might not be too happy about that- do they have intellectual property rights?
The NK-33 was a special case, as there were plans to fly many lunar missions, as so the engine was mass produced, and later put into storage. There was never mass production of the RD-0120 in the same manner. However, the manufacturer could certainly restart production of the RD-0120, once the money were available.
Concerning the Zenit, a two stage rocket, the Russians could certainly produce the tooling to reproduce the launcher, if the money were available.
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#246 by Jim on 19 Aug, 2008 00:36
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Concerning the Zenit, a two stage rocket, the Russians could certainly produce the tooling to reproduce the launcher, if the money were available.
Not if they don't have the drawings -
#247 by manlymissileman on 19 Aug, 2008 01:34
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I have no means to verify/confirm this now, but some years ago I read that prior to the dissolution of the USSR, the Zenit tankage (the Energia's booster 'leftover') tooling/welding/tank wall fabrication blueprints had been handed to the Samara plant, RF (the Soyuz LV folks) as well as to the Yuzhnoe, Ukraine where the tank tooling and the stage assembly line was ultimately built. Of course, it doesn't mean they can rebuild it fast (or given the state of archiving there they may have lost the design altogether).
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#248 by Ronsmytheiii on 27 Sep, 2008 18:01
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Just out of curiosity, why did the USSR/Russia not go with a Tracking and Data relay system? Seems to add much more coverage time.
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#249 by siatwork on 27 Sep, 2008 18:05
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Just out of curiosity, why did the USSR/Russia not go with a Tracking and Data relay system? Seems to add much more coverage time.
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/luch.htm Apparently there is a plan for the Luch followup for the ISS, but the status is unknown (to me) -
#250 by Jorge on 27 Sep, 2008 18:08
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Just out of curiosity, why did the USSR/Russia not go with a Tracking and Data relay system? Seems to add much more coverage time.
They had one (Luch, aka Altair), couldn't afford to maintain it.
The large antenna at the back of Zvezda, never deployed, was intended to communicate with Luch. -
#251 by brahmanknight on 27 Sep, 2008 18:12
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Jorge, anymore information you have on Luch would be great.
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#252 by Jim on 27 Sep, 2008 18:48
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Yuzhnoe, Ukraine where the tank tooling and the stage assembly line was ultimately built
It was there in the first place. It was designed there and never left. -
#253 by Jorge on 27 Sep, 2008 19:30
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Jorge, anymore information you have on Luch would be great.
siatwork posted a link to the astronautix.com page on Luch.
Beyond that I don't have much to add. In the very early Shuttle-Mir days the Russians were going to use Luch for Mir comm (the Mir base module had a Luch antenna similar to the one on Zvezda). When reality set in that Luch wouldn't be available, they fell back on ground stations and that was the beginning of the requirement that Shuttle-Mir dockings occur during a 4-minute window over Russian ground stations. This requirement was carried over to early ISS flights through 3A prior to the first crew.
Russian comm with ISS can now be relayed through TDRSS, which greatly reduces the Russians' incentive to revive Luch. -
#254 by anik on 28 Sep, 2008 06:29
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http://www.iss-reshetnev.ru/?cid=58
"Now experts of the JSC Information Satellite Systems – Reshetnyov Company work over creation of multipurpose space system of relaying Luch, the base of which will become Luch-5A and Luch-5B geostationary relay satellites."
"According to the Federal space program of Russia for 2006-2015 and the state contract between JSC Information Satellite Systems – Reshetnyov Company and the State Customer (Russian Federal Space Agency), Luch-5A and Luch-5B data relay satellites should be created in 2009 and 2010 respectively. Their launches into a geostationary orbit are planned on 2010 and 2011 respectively."
http://www.iss-reshetnev.ru/?cid=66
"Luch-5A and Luch-5B geostationary data relay satellites are designed on the basis of the unpressurized platform Ekspress-1000 of working out of JSC Information Satellite Systems – Reshetnyov Company."
"On both satellites are provided channels of relaying of the information in S- and Ku-band, which through the main channels of each of these satellites will be connected with reception-information transfer points"
"One of antennas of each satellite works in Ku-band (capacity up to 150 Mbit/s), another – in a S-band (up to 5 Mbit/s)."
"The possibility of reception of signals of KOSPAS/SARSAT system in P-band and their relaying in L-band to land points of reception of the information also is provided on Luch-5A satellite. In the same bands the possibility of gathering and transfer of the hydrometeorological information of Planeta-S system is provided. On Luch-5B satellite the laser-radio engineering communication channel instead of this will be established."
"During developing of Luch-5A and Luch-5B satellites will be realised various new technical decisions, including:
- the onboard relaying complexes created by JSC Information Satellite Systems – Reshetnyov Company with attraction of the domestic organisations (NII Radio, NPP Radiosvyaz and NII PP) and also foreign firms Thales Alenia Space and NEC TOSHIBA Space Systems;
- design of satellite on the basis of cellular panels with the built in thermal pipes;
- spokes from composite materials, a radio fabric from the gilt microwire on user's antennas;
- photoconverters of solar batteries on the basis of gallium arsenide;
- the high-precision star device in orientation system." -
#255 by siatwork on 28 Sep, 2008 06:48
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Thanks for the extra info on this, Jorge and anik
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#256 by EE Scott on 28 Sep, 2008 14:11
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Concerning the Zenit, a two stage rocket, the Russians could certainly produce the tooling to reproduce the launcher, if the money were available.
Not if they don't have the drawings
However if the Soviets could reverse-engineer the B-29, the Russians could certainly reverse-engineer the Zenit (if they had access to a completed Zenit). That being said, it seems the Russians are finally getting traction on the Angara effort. It will be interesting to see it come together (if it ever does).
An interestingly written article regarding Angara:
http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Outside_View_Reusable_rocket_breakthrough_999.html
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#257 by Spacenick on 28 Sep, 2008 18:46
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Well Russia has just increased their space budget a lot (I heard they doubled it but I'm not sure) that doesn't sound too bad for Angara and maybe some Soyuz follow on. Even if Russia has probably lost many good engineers they should still be able to build good space hardware.
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#258 by DMeader on 28 Sep, 2008 19:21
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Well Russia has just increased their space budget a lot (I heard they doubled it but I'm not sure) ...
And your source of this info is? -
#259 by pm1823 on 28 Sep, 2008 20:36
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(in Russian)
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8623&start=0
In 2009 Roskosmos expecting 79701.8 mln rubles against 43410.0 mln rubles (with additions) in 2008. Expected dollar rate in that budget project 24.9, so this is 3201 mln $.
