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#20 by NotGncDude on 13 Jan, 2007 19:28
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BTW DarthVader, thanks a lot. The picture is pretty helpful. I was never sure what were the square things on the side of the Soyuz shroud.
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#21 by Eraser on 14 Jan, 2007 04:50
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Kaputnik - 11/1/2007 7:50 PM I have a question about the TKS/VA Apparently the TPS developed for the VA capsule was superior to the Soyuz shielding. If this is true, then why has it not been used on the Soyuz as part of the TM or TMA upgrades? Is there any chance that the VA design could see a role in the CSTS program?
Different concepts of design. The TKS capsule had the hatch to BO directly in a heatshield and has been placed in the top part of a spacecraft. Advantage of such concept, was higher lift-over-drag ratio, and an opportunity of accommodation of engines of soft landing not under a heatshield, and above a capsule, with the subsequent VA reuse. Soyuz it will be necessary to redesign too strongly for use of similar scheme, easier at once to do Kliper. And certainly it is the different firms competing among themselves. Soyuz is made by Energia, and TKS/VA is made by Khrunichev. Too difficultly.
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#22 by Eraser on 14 Jan, 2007 04:56
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Quote
Eraser - 13/1/2007 10:33 AM
QuoteKaputnik - 11/1/2007 7:50 PM I have a question about the TKS/VA Apparently the TPS developed for the VA capsule was superior to the Soyuz shielding. If this is true, then why has it not been used on the Soyuz as part of the TM or TMA upgrades? Is there any chance that the VA design could see a role in the CSTS program?
Different concepts of design. The TKS capsule had the hatch to BO directly in a heatshield and has been placed in the top part of a spacecraft. Advantage of such concept, was higher lift-over-drag ratio, and an opportunity of accommodation of engines of soft landing not under a heatshield, and above a capsule, with the subsequent VA reuse. Soyuz it will be necessary to redesign too strongly for use of similar scheme, easier at once to do Kliper. And certainly it is the different firms competing among themselves. Soyuz is made by Energia, and TKS/VA is made by Khrunichev. Too difficultly.
I am sorry, has not quite understood a question. But in any case the competition between firms-manufacturers will be an obstacle, and heat-shielding TKS/VA is possible the expensive to put it on disposable Soyuz capsules.
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#23 by Danderman on 14 Jan, 2007 05:50
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Given that the Soyuz TPS has been proven under conditions of return from lunar missions, I doubt that many consider the TPS shielding to be "better". Moreover, the technical feat of putting the landing rockets in the parachute system was demonstrated on Voshkod prior to Soyuz by RSC Energia and discarded as an inferior system (among other problems, the nozzles can't point straight down at the capsule if they are located above the capsule).
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#24 by Eraser on 14 Jan, 2007 07:51
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Danderman - 13/1/2007 11:33 AM Given that the Soyuz TPS has been proven under conditions of return from lunar missions, I doubt that many consider the TPS shielding to be "better". Moreover, the technical feat of putting the landing rockets in the parachute system was demonstrated on Voshkod prior to Soyuz by RSC Energia and discarded as an inferior system (among other problems, the nozzles can't point straight down at the capsule if they are located above the capsule).
Landing rockets at TKS/VA are fixed on the rigid console unlike Voskhod. That Soyuz TPS is considerably more tested, I agree.
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#25 by Kaputnik on 15 Jan, 2007 08:27
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OK another question....
How many RD0120 engines exist and are flight servicable? Does anybody still have enough knowledge of how they are operated to ever use them in a launch vehicle? -
#26 by DarthVader on 22 Jan, 2007 16:52
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Here's a little cross-post from the "Advanced Concepts" forum:Quote
cpooley - 7/7/2006 6:37 PM
two interesting methods: 1. Soyuz (R-7) a liquid nitrogen tank feeds one of 4 pumps on the trubopump shaft and runs it through a heat exchanger which used the turbine exhaust to evaporate it to pressurize the tanks. Lighter than using high pressure bottles.
Is the gaseous nitrogen used to pressurize both the Fuel and LOX tanks during the flight or just the Fuel tank? What is used before the engine is started? Ground supplied gaseous nitrogen?
Similarly, how is the pressurization of the tanks of the Blok I (3rd stage) done prior to liftoff and also prior to ignition of its engine?
Thanks :-) -
#27 by Kyra's kosmos on 22 Jan, 2007 21:58
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Darth, I understand your troubles regarding technical information and "board" documents.
Regarding the early VZOR used on Vostok there were several toggle switches on the control panel to the left of the cosmonaut. I can look to see if the swicth labels are visible to see what these did.
Regarding a source of detailed information on control panels the best site I have found is a collection of papers by Yuri Tiapchenko. In fact I once had a chance to e-mail him directly with questions, but the e-mail server to him didn't work ! Check out Alexander Zheleznyakov's encyclopedia of cosmonautics online under publications.
Here are some gems in my hunt:
Bortovoi Zhurnal Kosmicheskogo Korabl Vostok-6 (Onboard Journal Vostok 6)
Vostok-6 flight transcript
Vostok Flight Manual (yes, one did exist)
Any panel information for SIS-1-3KA (Vostok), the best I have is slightly blurry pictures, and one high res of the instrument panel that is slightly too dark to make out the light tablo, or indicator lights board labels.
Its kind of funny how close I've gotten to some of this information, yet so far. The quest is almost like something from Giligan's Island or Lost in Space where the objective is within your reach, but something always fouls it up - or those that can make the objective possible are simply too busy, or just plain perplexed as to why one would want the documents. Hopefully there will be some archivist or benefactor that will understand and will truly create on online Russian space library. RGANDT is getting better it seems. We can still only dream of a mass collection of online .pdfs with transcripts, flight manuals, specifications, journals, on-board checklists, science result papers, FAI type documents.
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#28 by DarthVader on 22 Jan, 2007 22:40
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Howdy Krya, please let us know if you find any of these documents .. they are indeed gems I'd love to get my hands on.
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#29 by DarthVader on 23 Jan, 2007 14:55
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Here's are the best pictures of the instruments panel of Vostok I have found so far in my quest(s):
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/367003654_23e8202be4_o_d.jpg" />
Which aren't too bad .... but still no close enough to be able to real all the labels :-(
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#30 by Kyra's kosmos on 23 Jan, 2007 16:25
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Wow Darth Thanks !
I bought the top picture in hi-res from Novosti Kosmonavtiki some months back. Some of the lights were still unreadable due to shadowing.
The bottom pic however is interesting because for the first time I can read a portion of the side of the Control Panel. We can see a switch for the "signal system" and Spusk (Descent III) which was manual presumably logically tied to the red covered switch that would fire the TDU-1. The logical lock opened the clear cover allowing access to the switches on the side of this black panel.
For those readers out there that don't know about the Vostok it had two main panels. One of which is the instrument panel with the Globus "Globe", guages, and lights, and the other panel was the control panel with toggle and rotary switches. The control switch panel sat to the left of the cosmonaut.
All other functions were performed automatically by onboard logic and timers or by radio command using the MRV-2M system as I understand it. It had a cabability of 20 commands which went to an upgrade of 63 commands which about 50 were utilized. After jettison of the PO instrument section after retrofire the command capability was no longer relevant and the automatic system waited for input from barometric switches and timers to jettison hatches, deploy the parachutes and eject the cosmonaut, and activate the "Peleng" recovery signals.
The Voskhod had these same panels plus a third in the case of Voskhod-2 which had a panel for the airlock with additional indicator lights and switches. (And revised logic from ejection to firing the reserve rocket)
This is to the best of my knowledge...
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#31 by TJL on 25 Jan, 2007 21:45
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I have a question regarding the Progress vehicle re-entry.
Does the spacecraft separate into 3 sections (as the Soyuz) after the breaking rockets fire?
Thank you. -
#32 by DarthVader on 25 Jan, 2007 22:09
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AFAIK no. Progress isn't designed to have an active separation of the BO and PAO (it doesn't have a real SA).
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#33 by DarthVader on 26 Jan, 2007 17:50
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Here's another question :-) On Vostok Block E (Ye), were the 4 verniers gimbaled, or was pitch & yaw controlled by variating the output of each individual vernier? If so, how was the roll controlled?
Thanks in advance. -
#34 by Carl G on 30 Jan, 2007 12:55
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What is the budget of the Russian space program?
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#35 by Eraser on 31 Jan, 2007 11:41
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Carl G - 29/1/2007 6:55 PM What is the budget of the Russian space program?
Head of the Federal Space Agency, Anatoly Perminov, at a meeting of the Federation Council announced that, in 2007 for the Russian space programme will be allocated 0.8 billion dollars 30 times less than the budget of NASA. -
#36 by Martin FL on 01 Feb, 2007 03:12
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Eraser - 31/1/2007 6:41 AM
QuoteCarl G - 29/1/2007 6:55 PM What is the budget of the Russian space program?
Head of the Federal Space Agency, Anatoly Perminov, at a meeting of the Federation Council announced that, in 2007 for the Russian space programme will be allocated 0.8 billion dollars 30 times less than the budget of NASA.
That's amazing. A very very good space program for only $800m. -
#37 by Jim on 01 Feb, 2007 11:43
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the exchange rate is artificial
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#38 by Eraser on 01 Feb, 2007 12:12
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Martin FL - 31/1/2007 9:12 AM
That's amazing. A very very good space program for only $800m.
Nothing amazing, rockets are inexpensive owing to a batch production and a cheap labour. Technology have become outdated. Russian satellite group is very small in comparison with the United States.
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#39 by Eraser on 01 Feb, 2007 12:20
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Jim - 31/1/2007 5:43 PM the exchange rate is artificial
Offtopic: You have in view of a exchange rate of rouble to dollar? The Rouble now is is hard currency, the Central Bank of Russia has removed all restrictions on an exchange and export of currency.