Status of Artemis crew-capable Rovers?

• Status of Artemis crew-capable Rovers? by DanClemmensen on 12 Aug, 2023 18:01
• At one point, a CLPS mission was supposed to land a crew-capable rover prior to Artemis III so the crew could drive to prospect for water. This has apparently gone away, and LTV will not be available until 2029. What happened to that early rover?
• #1 by yg1968 on 12 Aug, 2023 21:15
• Quote from: DanClemmensen on 12 Aug, 2023 18:01

  At one point, a CLPS mission was supposed to land a crew-capable rover prior to Artemis III so the crew could drive to prospect for water. This has apparently gone away, and LTV will not be available until 2029. What happened to that early rover?
  

  
  I don't recall that ever existing. There was talk of delivering LTV through CLPS but an HLS delivery seems more likely at this time. VIPER is supposed to look for water but VIPER is an uncrewed rover. 
• #2 by DanClemmensen on 12 Aug, 2023 21:37
• Quote from: yg1968 on 12 Aug, 2023 21:15

  Quote from: DanClemmensen on 12 Aug, 2023 18:01

  At one point, a CLPS mission was supposed to land a crew-capable rover prior to Artemis III so the crew could drive to prospect for water. This has apparently gone away, and LTV will not be available until 2029. What happened to that early rover?
  

  
  I don't recall that ever existing. There was talk of delivering LTV through CLPS but an HLS delivery seems more likely at this time. VIPER is supposed to look for water but VIPER is an uncrewed rover.
  

  It was mentioned here ion a article from 2019:
      https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/nasa-shares-details-of-lunar-surface-missions-and-theyre-pretty-cool/
  in the article and also in the NASA slide deck embedded in the article.  An "unpressurized rover" in contrast to the later pressurized rover.
• #3 by yg1968 on 12 Aug, 2023 22:32
• Quote from: DanClemmensen on 12 Aug, 2023 21:37

  Quote from: yg1968 on 12 Aug, 2023 21:15

  Quote from: DanClemmensen on 12 Aug, 2023 18:01

  At one point, a CLPS mission was supposed to land a crew-capable rover prior to Artemis III so the crew could drive to prospect for water. This has apparently gone away, and LTV will not be available until 2029. What happened to that early rover?
  

  
  I don't recall that ever existing. There was talk of delivering LTV through CLPS but an HLS delivery seems more likely at this time. VIPER is supposed to look for water but VIPER is an uncrewed rover.
  

  It was mentioned here ion a article from 2019:
      https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/nasa-shares-details-of-lunar-surface-missions-and-theyre-pretty-cool/
  in the article and also in the NASA slide deck embedded in the article.  An "unpressurized rover" in contrast to the later pressurized rover.
  

  
  This sounds like the LTV. I imagine that it got pushed out to a later mission because of budget pressures.
• #4 by Bob Shaw on 12 Aug, 2023 22:44
• Well, SpaceX had already launched one car into deep space, so maybe they’ll send another to the Moon on their own dollar (well, Tesla’s). A basic rover that doesn’t have to fold or weigh almost nothing shouldn’t be too hard for a company which has already designed, built and launched 4,000 satellites and with a sister company which has sold tens of thousands of electric cars already.
• #5 by Zed_Noir on 12 Aug, 2023 23:10
• Quote from: Bob Shaw on 12 Aug, 2023 22:44

  Well, SpaceX had already launched one car into deep space, so maybe they’ll send another to the Moon on their own dollar (well, Tesla’s). A basic rover that doesn’t have to fold or weigh almost nothing shouldn’t be too hard for a company which has already designed, built and launched 4,000 satellites and with a sister company which has sold tens of thousands of electric cars already.
  

  Problem is that NASA wants a single long duration non-pressurized Lunar scientific rover that can hauled Astronauts and a pressurized Lunar crew vehicle. Plus many small dinky experimental rovers landed with experimental CLPS landers.
  
  To go with NASA's reference 3 element HLS lander stack with very constrained payload mass capacity. Which the original 2 person Blue Origin HLS lander resembled.
  
  As soon as you have people depending on a rover, said vehicle is no longer compact, cheap or simple.
  
  
  
   
  
• #6 by tbellman on 13 Aug, 2023 13:46
• Quote from: DanClemmensen on 12 Aug, 2023 18:01

  At one point, a CLPS mission was supposed to land a crew-capable rover prior to Artemis III so the crew could drive to prospect for water. This has apparently gone away, and LTV will not be available until 2029. What happened to that early rover?
  

  
  That version of the Lunar Terrain Vehicle never really existed.  NASA were thinking about procuring such a rover, and issued an RFI for that in February 2020.  See this thread.  There were actually two RFIs: one for a crewed rover (the LTV), and one for a scientific rover (called the Lunar Surface Science Mobility Systems).  See this presentation for some more details about the two.
  
  I believe the only ones that announced publicly that they were planning to build an LTV rover based on that RFI, where Lockheed Marting and General Motors teaming up: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=53972.0
  
  Later, in autumn 2021, NASA issued a new RFI for a crewed rover (see this thread).  In that they planned to buy not a rover, but a "rover-as-a-service".  Unlike in the first RFI, it would be up to the rover provider to deliver it to the Moon, and NASA would not set any mass limits for the rover.  My understanding is that the rover they want now will subsume both the crew rover and the science rover they were thinking about in the first RFI.
  
  (There have been several companies announcing plans to build a rover after that.)
  
  So, in the time between those two RFIs, NASA changed their minds about what they wanted, how they wanted it, and when they wanted it.  Presumably based partially on the feedback they got from that first RFI, and partially based on budget realities (and quite possibly based on internal politics as well).
  
  And in May this year, NASA issued the actual RFP, with proposals due July 13th.  I haven't heard any news since then.
• #7 by Jim on 13 Aug, 2023 17:32
• Quote from: Bob Shaw on 12 Aug, 2023 22:44

  A basic rover that doesn’t have to fold or weigh almost nothing shouldn’t be too hard for a company which has already designed, built and launched 4,000 satellites and with a sister company which has sold tens of thousands of electric cars already.
  

  
  false logic.  it has been only one type of satellite and terrestrial car experience is meaningless