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Fermilab may be close to proving that a fifth force exists
by
Star One
on 11 Aug, 2023 16:30
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#1
by
whitelancer64
on 11 Aug, 2023 22:11
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Dr Mitesh Patel from Imperial College London is among the thousands of physicists at the LHC attempting to find flaws in the Standard Model.
"Measuring behaviour that doesn't agree with the predictions of the Standard Model is the holy grail for particle physics. It would fire the starting-gun for a revolution in our understanding because the model has withstood all experimental tests for more than 50 years."
Muons are similar to electrons which orbit atoms and are responsible for electrical currents, but they are about 200 times as massive.
In the experiment they were made to wobble, using powerful, superconducting magnets.
The results showed that the muons wobbled faster than the standard model said it should. Prof Graziano Venanzoni, of Liverpool University, who is one of the leading researchers on the project, told BBC News that this might be caused by an unknown new force.
"We think there could be another force, something that we are not aware of now. It is something different, which we call the 'fifth force'.
"It is something different, something we don't know about yet, but it should be important, because it says something new about the Universe."
If confirmed, this would represent arguably one of the biggest scientific breakthroughs for a hundred years, since Einstein's theories of relativity. That is because a fifth force and any particles associated with it are not part of the Standard Model of particle physics.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-66407099
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#2
by
zubenelgenubi
on 11 Aug, 2023 22:59
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Moderator reminder:
This is not a physics forum. Keep discussion focused on potential spaceflight developments of the hypothetical fifth force.
Cranks need not apply.
Thank you.
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#3
by
CuddlyRocket
on 11 Aug, 2023 23:02
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At last something that hints at physics beyond the Standard Model.
The claimed anomalous magnetic moment of the muon has been hinting at physics beyond the Standard Model for quite a while now. The problem is that the calculated value of the magnetic moment from the Standard Model is very uncertain - the calculations are fiendishly difficult as they involve the strong force. The difference between the experimental and calculated values can still be accounted for by the uncertainties.
But here's hoping. I'm sure physicists will be delirious with excitement if the Standard Model is shown to have a crack in it!
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#4
by
Bob Woods
on 12 Aug, 2023 03:16
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Zuben, please give some running room on this until more info comes out.
It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.
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#5
by
Star One
on 12 Aug, 2023 08:21
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Zuben, please give some running room on this until more info comes out.
It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.
As to your latter sentence that was my thinking and why I posted it here. But was unsure if to start a separate thread or not.
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#6
by
Bob Woods
on 12 Aug, 2023 17:32
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Sure sounds like "New Physics" to me.
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#7
by
Star One
on 13 Aug, 2023 10:24
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Sure sounds like "New Physics" to me.
My OP at least was in the Astronomy thread.
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#8
by
zubenelgenubi
on 13 Aug, 2023 18:54
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Moderator:
Yes, I merged duplicate threads and chose "New Physics for Space Technology" as the sub-forum.
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#9
by
InterestedEngineer
on 14 Aug, 2023 01:28
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Moderator:
Yes, I merged duplicate threads and chose "New Physics for Space Technology" as the sub-forum.
Is there a thread history to help get us familiar with this topc, or just the OP above?
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#10
by
InterestedEngineer
on 14 Aug, 2023 01:33
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From the article:
These include the fact that galaxies are continuing to accelerate apart after the Big Bang that created the Universe, rather than the expansion slowing down. Scientists say the acceleration is being driven by an unknown force, called dark energy.
Galaxies are also spinning faster than they should, according to our understanding of how much material is in them. Researchers believe it's because of invisible particles called dark matter, which again are not part of the Standard Model.
While I'm grateful that the authors brought up glaring (easily observable macroscopic) holes in the standard model, The article didn't say how the new "5th" force would affect those holes.
Anyone have any idea what macroscopic effects this "5th force" would have?
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#11
by
Star One
on 14 Aug, 2023 16:24
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#12
by
Mark K
on 14 Aug, 2023 16:57
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From the article:
These include the fact that galaxies are continuing to accelerate apart after the Big Bang that created the Universe, rather than the expansion slowing down. Scientists say the acceleration is being driven by an unknown force, called dark energy.
Galaxies are also spinning faster than they should, according to our understanding of how much material is in them. Researchers believe it's because of invisible particles called dark matter, which again are not part of the Standard Model.
While I'm grateful that the authors brought up glaring (easily observable macroscopic) holes in the standard model, The article didn't say how the new "5th" force would affect those holes.
Anyone have any idea what macroscopic effects this "5th force" would have?
Those things are not glaring holes in the Standard Model (of Particle Physics) which says nothing about Dark Energy or Dark Matter. They are more holes for General Relativity, the other main model used for predictions. A new force would mean a new force carrier particle and interactions. I would think the most immediate space related effect would possibly be some new predictions that would call for some new in space instruments.
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#13
by
Bob Woods
on 14 Aug, 2023 18:11
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#14
by
ugordan
on 15 Aug, 2023 02:16
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It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.
It's not hard at all.
Call me a grumpy old man, but I fail to see how a tentative new force of nature would automatically help to advance space travel? For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.
This is just wishful thinking.
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#15
by
InterestedEngineer
on 15 Aug, 2023 02:26
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From the article:
These include the fact that galaxies are continuing to accelerate apart after the Big Bang that created the Universe, rather than the expansion slowing down. Scientists say the acceleration is being driven by an unknown force, called dark energy.
Galaxies are also spinning faster than they should, according to our understanding of how much material is in them. Researchers believe it's because of invisible particles called dark matter, which again are not part of the Standard Model.
While I'm grateful that the authors brought up glaring (easily observable macroscopic) holes in the standard model, The article didn't say how the new "5th" force would affect those holes.
Anyone have any idea what macroscopic effects this "5th force" would have?
Those things are not glaring holes in the Standard Model (of Particle Physics) which says nothing about Dark Energy or Dark Matter. They are more holes for General Relativity, the other main model used for predictions. A new force would mean a new force carrier particle and interactions. I would think the most immediate space related effect would possibly be some new predictions that would call for some new in space instruments.
I might be a bit confused, but doesn't the Standard Model incorporate General Relativity and Quantum Electrodynamics at least as assumptions?
Standard Model doesn't predict particles that interact only be gravity and General Relativity doesn't predict the macro behavior we see. So it's 6:1 half dozen to the other, the models collectively have a big hole.
off to read the paper to see if they address that last part of the article, or whether it's just the author article throwing off topic stuff.
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#16
by
InterestedEngineer
on 15 Aug, 2023 02:33
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It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.
It's not hard at all.
Call me a grumpy old man, but I fail to see how a tentative new force of nature would automatically help to advance space travel? For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.
Sure it did. The weak force allows us to model fission more accurately, which, while it never flew, full scale prototypes of NTRs were built and tested, and I think someone actually flew a nuclear reactor for orbital power generation (Soviets).
So it didn't help space travel much, but the weak force was involved to some extent.
In the future if we get fusion rockets the weak force will be right there in the models.
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#17
by
InterestedEngineer
on 15 Aug, 2023 02:36
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Here’s the paper as regards this announcement.
https://muon-g-2.fnal.gov/result2023.pdf
The data are blinded by hiding the true value of the
calorimeter digitization clock frequency. This blinding
factor is different for Run-2 and Run-3
I'm already getting impressed. Blinding in physics experiments.
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#18
by
Bob Woods
on 15 Aug, 2023 03:11
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It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.
It's not hard at all.
Call me a grumpy old man, but I fail to see how a tentative new force of nature would automatically help to advance space travel? For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.
This is just wishful thinking.
The weak force is entwined with boson production. The Z Boson, with the weak force, is referred to as a mediator in the transfer of momentum. My physics understanding is over 50 years old, and I don't claim to be anything more than an interested observer. But I have thought that the transfer of momentum is intrinsic to movement. If we could develop a method of creating Z Bosons (a proton sized transitory particle) on demand we would have the beginnings of an impulse drive that would not require the exhaust of a propellant.
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#19
by
ugordan
on 15 Aug, 2023 10:50
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From the article:
These include the fact that galaxies are continuing to accelerate apart after the Big Bang that created the Universe, rather than the expansion slowing down. Scientists say the acceleration is being driven by an unknown force, called dark energy.
Galaxies are also spinning faster than they should, according to our understanding of how much material is in them. Researchers believe it's because of invisible particles called dark matter, which again are not part of the Standard Model.
While I'm grateful that the authors brought up glaring (easily observable macroscopic) holes in the standard model, The article didn't say how the new "5th" force would affect those holes.
Anyone have any idea what macroscopic effects this "5th force" would have?
Those things are not glaring holes in the Standard Model (of Particle Physics) which says nothing about Dark Energy or Dark Matter. They are more holes for General Relativity, the other main model used for predictions. A new force would mean a new force carrier particle and interactions. I would think the most immediate space related effect would possibly be some new predictions that would call for some new in space instruments.
I might be a bit confused, but doesn't the Standard Model incorporate General Relativity and Quantum Electrodynamics at least as assumptions?
Quantum electrodynamics are fully incorporated in the SM, my understanding is even GR works in the weak field limit just fine. It's "only" when you get to very short distance scales/high energies that things start blowing up with infinities, revealing that we need a proper theory of quantum gravity and not an effective one at low energies.
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#20
by
ugordan
on 15 Aug, 2023 11:00
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It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.
It's not hard at all.
Call me a grumpy old man, but I fail to see how a tentative new force of nature would automatically help to advance space travel? For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.
Sure it did. The weak force allows us to model fission more accurately, which, while it never flew, full scale prototypes of NTRs were built and tested, and I think someone actually flew a nuclear reactor for orbital power generation (Soviets).
So it didn't help space travel much, but the weak force was involved to some extent.
In the future if we get fusion rockets the weak force will be right there in the models.
Well, sure, but you kind of made my point. As of now, only RTGs have had a big impact on space travel and I don't know about other isotopes that have been used historically, but Pu-238 undergoes alpha decay which, again, is not governed by the weak force.
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#21
by
laszlo
on 15 Aug, 2023 11:13
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It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.
It's not hard at all.
Call me a grumpy old man, but I fail to see how a tentative new force of nature would automatically help to advance space travel? For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.
Sure it did. The weak force allows us to model fission more accurately, which, while it never flew, full scale prototypes of NTRs were built and tested, and I think someone actually flew a nuclear reactor for orbital power generation (Soviets).
So it didn't help space travel much, but the weak force was involved to some extent.
In the future if we get fusion rockets the weak force will be right there in the models.
Well, sure, but you kind of made my point. As of now, only RTGs have had a big impact on space travel and I don't know about other isotopes that have been used historically, but Pu-238 undergoes alpha decay which, again, is not governed by the weak force.
How about the radioluminescent backup lighting in the Apollo spacecraft? Actual engineering based on the weak force.
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#22
by
ugordan
on 15 Aug, 2023 12:39
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How about the radioluminescent backup lighting in the Apollo spacecraft? Actual engineering based on the weak force.
...and a true game-changer in the history of spaceflight... Are we now just relegating ourselves to finding niche roles the weak force has played *anywhere* to counter my example as opposed to the OPs hope that this tentative "fifth force" would be actually *significant* to our space travels?
I swear, if I went back some 11 years on this forum, I'd probably find someone speculating on how the discovery of the Higgs boson would advance space exploration. There is nothing to say that every new physics discovery lends itself to new, practical engineering purposes - that was my whole point to the OP, but now we're side-tracked with nitpicking on the weak force that I picked as one example. NSF forum at its finest.
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#23
by
ugordan
on 15 Aug, 2023 13:04
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It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.
It's not hard at all.
Call me a grumpy old man, but I fail to see how a tentative new force of nature would automatically help to advance space travel? For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.
This is just wishful thinking.
The weak force is entwined with boson production. The Z Boson, with the weak force, is referred to as a mediator in the transfer of momentum. My physics understanding is over 50 years old, and I don't claim to be anything more than an interested observer. But I have thought that the transfer of momentum is intrinsic to movement. If we could develop a method of creating Z Bosons (a proton sized transitory particle) on demand we would have the beginnings of an impulse drive that would not require the exhaust of a propellant.
We already have much, much simpler means of producing and using bosons that don't require expelling any propellant either and, yet, they also carry momentum. They're called photons. I don't want to sound harsh, but why complicate things by invoking Rube Goldberg-like scenarios, trying to create Z bosons (which, due to them being so heavy will immediately decay into other products, anyway - hence why the weak force is actually weak and is so short-ranged)?
https://atlas.physicsmasterclasses.org/en/zpath_lhcphysics2.htmPropellantless space propulsion is not about new physics and it's not impossible even now, but it's all about the power available you have to drive your... well, drive. Momentum and energy are conserved in any reaction, be it Z bosons or photons so where does any advantage of using Z bosons come from?
We could have propellantless propulsion even now with giant lasers that would probably gulp gigawatts of power which we're nowhere near at and it would still be simpler than trying to produce weak force bosons on demand (which we don't have a way of doing at a massive scale and probably never will, certainly not in the direction we want them to go - out the engine).
The fact this tentative "fifth force" is so miniscule and elusive in its effects on one of the properties of the muon makes it even less likely that it will be useful for anything practical, if it ever comes to be. That's the beauty with electromagnetism, its effects are manifestly evident in everyday life and on tabletop experiments all the way back to Faraday or even earlier. If you need a huge, expensive particle accelerator to get this "fifth" force to manifest itself, then I say even sustained fusion seems like a walk in the park compared to that.
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#24
by
Star One
on 15 Aug, 2023 16:31
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How about the radioluminescent backup lighting in the Apollo spacecraft? Actual engineering based on the weak force.
...and a true game-changer in the history of spaceflight... Are we now just relegating ourselves to finding niche roles the weak force has played *anywhere* to counter my example as opposed to the OPs hope that this tentative "fifth force" would be actually *significant* to our space travels?
I swear, if I went back some 11 years on this forum, I'd probably find someone speculating on how the discovery of the Higgs boson would advance space exploration. There is nothing to say that every new physics discovery lends itself to new, practical engineering purposes - that was my whole point to the OP, but now we're side-tracked with nitpicking on the weak force that I picked as one example. NSF forum at its finest.
I was the OP and please don’t put words into my mouth. The main thing that caught my attention was the fact that this appeared to be outside the SM. It was others who brought in the matter of its usefulness or not to spaceflight.
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#25
by
ugordan
on 15 Aug, 2023 16:54
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I was the OP and please don’t put words into my mouth. The main thing that caught my attention was the fact that this appeared to be outside the SM. It was others who brought in the matter of its usefulness or not to spaceflight.
I was referring to this post, not yours:
It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.
As in the OP/original post *I* was responding to. Granted, I should have been more specific from the start, but was too lazy to do so. Mea culpa.
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#26
by
laszlo
on 16 Aug, 2023 10:05
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...and a true game-changer in the history of spaceflight... Are we now just relegating ourselves to finding niche roles the weak force has played *anywhere* to counter my example as opposed to the OPs hope that this tentative "fifth force" would be actually *significant* to our space travels?
I swear, if I went back some 11 years on this forum, I'd probably find someone speculating on how the discovery of the Higgs boson would advance space exploration. There is nothing to say that every new physics discovery lends itself to new, practical engineering purposes - that was my whole point to the OP, but now we're side-tracked with nitpicking on the weak force that I picked as one example. NSF forum at its finest.
Your exact words:
For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.
My reply:
How about the radioluminescent backup lighting in the Apollo spacecraft? Actual engineering based on the weak force.
The crew of Apollo 13 would have to weigh in on the utility of being able to see in a powered-down command module.
I get your point that it wasn't a warp drive or something like that. My point is that a new fundamental force would eventually have some kind of application somewhere, even if "only" as an explanation for observed or new phenomena. Right now it's not even at the "What good is a newborn baby?" point since it's unconfirmed, but it's premature to write it off completely. And no, I don't believe it will ever be a warp drive, transporter or anything like that.
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#27
by
Bob Woods
on 17 Aug, 2023 04:12
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It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.
It's not hard at all.
Call me a grumpy old man, but I fail to see how a tentative new force of nature would automatically help to advance space travel? For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.
This is just wishful thinking.
The weak force is entwined with boson production. The Z Boson, with the weak force, is referred to as a mediator in the transfer of momentum. My physics understanding is over 50 years old, and I don't claim to be anything more than an interested observer. But I have thought that the transfer of momentum is intrinsic to movement. If we could develop a method of creating Z Bosons (a proton sized transitory particle) on demand we would have the beginnings of an impulse drive that would not require the exhaust of a propellant.
We already have much, much simpler means of producing and using bosons that don't require expelling any propellant either and, yet, they also carry momentum. They're called photons. I don't want to sound harsh, but why complicate things by invoking Rube Goldberg-like scenarios, trying to create Z bosons (which, due to them being so heavy will immediately decay into other products, anyway - hence why the weak force is actually weak and is so short-ranged)?
https://atlas.physicsmasterclasses.org/en/zpath_lhcphysics2.htm
Propellantless space propulsion is not about new physics and it's not impossible even now, but it's all about the power available you have to drive your... well, drive. Momentum and energy are conserved in any reaction, be it Z bosons or photons so where does any advantage of using Z bosons come from?
We could have propellantless propulsion even now with giant lasers that would probably gulp gigawatts of power which we're nowhere near at and it would still be simpler than trying to produce weak force bosons on demand (which we don't have a way of doing at a massive scale and probably never will, certainly not in the direction we want them to go - out the engine).
The fact this tentative "fifth force" is so miniscule and elusive in its effects on one of the properties of the muon makes it even less likely that it will be useful for anything practical, if it ever comes to be. That's the beauty with electromagnetism, its effects are manifestly evident in everyday life and on tabletop experiments all the way back to Faraday or even earlier. If you need a huge, expensive particle accelerator to get this "fifth" force to manifest itself, then I say even sustained fusion seems like a walk in the park compared to that.
Photons have ZERO mass. Z Bosons have a mass of 90 GeV/c
2 . That's a big difference.
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#28
by
CoolScience
on 19 Aug, 2023 21:42
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Photons have ZERO mass. Z Bosons have a mass of 90 GeV/c2 . That's a big difference.
It is in fact a big difference, which makes them a terrible idea to use for propulsion. 90 GeV of photons have 90 Gev /c of momentum. a 90 GeV Z boson has zero momentum. In all cases, you are better off turning energy into photons than creating massive particles and accelerating them. The only reason we use massive particles (atoms/molecules) for modern space propulsion is that short of an antimatter drive, we cannot extract more energy from them, and we are not spending energy to synthesize them. Z bosons are simple to extract energy from, just wait a split second for them to decay, or better, don't produce them in the first place.
The general equation:
E^2 = (p*c)^2 + (m0 * c^2)^2
p is momentum, to maximize that, you want to minimize m0.
You claimed that your physics understanding is 50 years old, so far between your incorrect claim that Z Bosons have some kind of special relationship with momentum (they only have the standard one that all particles do) and now an implication that more mass would help rather than hurt it, there is no time period where your knowledge would be correct. I suggest you ask more questions and not make assertions on things that you have not researched.
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#29
by
CoolScience
on 19 Aug, 2023 21:58
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...and a true game-changer in the history of spaceflight... Are we now just relegating ourselves to finding niche roles the weak force has played *anywhere* to counter my example as opposed to the OPs hope that this tentative "fifth force" would be actually *significant* to our space travels?
I swear, if I went back some 11 years on this forum, I'd probably find someone speculating on how the discovery of the Higgs boson would advance space exploration. There is nothing to say that every new physics discovery lends itself to new, practical engineering purposes - that was my whole point to the OP, but now we're side-tracked with nitpicking on the weak force that I picked as one example. NSF forum at its finest.
Your exact words:
For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.
My reply:
How about the radioluminescent backup lighting in the Apollo spacecraft? Actual engineering based on the weak force.
The crew of Apollo 13 would have to weigh in on the utility of being able to see in a powered-down command module.
I get your point that it wasn't a warp drive or something like that. My point is that a new fundamental force would eventually have some kind of application somewhere, even if "only" as an explanation for observed or new phenomena. Right now it's not even at the "What good is a newborn baby?" point since it's unconfirmed, but it's premature to write it off completely. And no, I don't believe it will ever be a warp drive, transporter or anything like that.
You should go back and read what was being replied to:
"It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel."
The implication was quite clearly space drives, and was accompanied by unfounded confidence of the utility of any new force. A niche use of glowing paint that could also be handled by flashlights, and which doesn't require any actual knowledge of the detailed radioactive processes to apply is in no way a relevant counter example.
If there is ever a new force discovered, it will almost by definition be fundamental to the universe working the way it does. It will also almost certainly only manifest in some tiny effects like the experiment here and is unlikely to result in any new technology. Also, I haven't read the details of this experiment, is there some particular reason that it is claimed as a possible new force rather than minor refinement of some existing parameter? Or is this a case like the LHC black holes thing where headlines are just grabbing the most attention grabbing, but least likely explanation/result.
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#30
by
edzieba
on 20 Aug, 2023 00:25
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The implication was quite clearly space drives
There is far more to space travel than just the burney bits at the end. A better understanding of subatomic behaviour may allow for (for example) design of more effective physical radiation shielding, more efficient charged particle deflection, novel sensor systems (e.g. more remote mascon sensors, sensors than can perform fine volumetric measurements of the operational state of the inside of your fission or fusion reactor), etc. Even if a 'fifth force' only has notable effects on the strong and weak nuclear forces, that still has implications for nuclear and condensed matter physics that may have applications at the macroscale.
Relativistic physics doesn't just deal with hypothetical c-fractional drives, after all. Without an understanding of relativistic physics there would - for example - be no Sagnac effect, which means no ring-laser gyros, which would mean spacecraft would be stuck using mechanical gimbals with all their associated issues (minimum mass, power consumption, gimbal-lock, etc).
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#31
by
Mark K
on 20 Aug, 2023 01:32
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If there is ever a new force discovered, it will almost by definition be fundamental to the universe working the way it does. It will also almost certainly only manifest in some tiny effects like the experiment here and is unlikely to result in any new technology. Also, I haven't read the details of this experiment, is there some particular reason that it is claimed as a possible new force rather than minor refinement of some existing parameter? Or is this a case like the LHC black holes thing where headlines are just grabbing the most attention grabbing, but least likely explanation/result.
Fermilab have a relatively high sigma value of a basic measurement that falls outside of general ranges of Standard Model calculations. There is a very good chance this discrepancy holds up - that is, their measurement is correct.
The problem is that the "error" could very well be on the Standard Model calculation side. That is it that we are not calculating the value correctly for this experiment and using the correct calculation will bring the values together. They are doing very many loops of Feynman diagrams and many particles. These calculations are very much not trivial and there is an acknowledgement that this may well be the issue. As is classic today people jump on the hype before the work is done.
So there is some chance this is really new physics not predicted, and there is also some chance this is showing us an issue with how we calculate things using our current models. Either will be important to know.
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#32
by
laszlo
on 20 Aug, 2023 12:18
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A niche use of glowing paint that could also be handled by flashlights, and which doesn't require any actual knowledge of the detailed radioactive processes to apply is in no way a relevant counter example.
It was promethium-147 encapsulated in glass capsules sealed inside acrylic toggle switches. It was a backup to the 3 penlights issued to each crewman since back in the 60's they only had a reliability of hours to days. Relevance superbly explained by edzieba above.
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#33
by
CoolScience
on 21 Aug, 2023 09:12
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If there is ever a new force discovered, it will almost by definition be fundamental to the universe working the way it does. It will also almost certainly only manifest in some tiny effects like the experiment here and is unlikely to result in any new technology. Also, I haven't read the details of this experiment, is there some particular reason that it is claimed as a possible new force rather than minor refinement of some existing parameter? Or is this a case like the LHC black holes thing where headlines are just grabbing the most attention grabbing, but least likely explanation/result.
Fermilab have a relatively high sigma value of a basic measurement that falls outside of general ranges of Standard Model calculations. There is a very good chance this discrepancy holds up - that is, their measurement is correct.
The problem is that the "error" could very well be on the Standard Model calculation side. That is it that we are not calculating the value correctly for this experiment and using the correct calculation will bring the values together. They are doing very many loops of Feynman diagrams and many particles. These calculations are very much not trivial and there is an acknowledgement that this may well be the issue. As is classic today people jump on the hype before the work is done.
So there is some chance this is really new physics not predicted, and there is also some chance this is showing us an issue with how we calculate things using our current models. Either will be important to know.
Thank you for the reply. I pretty much assumed that relatively high confidence was obtained, at least assuming no errors were made and given the absurd difficulty of particle physics calculations that is certainly a potential error. What I really want to know, but might not be simple to explain, is why they are calling the new effect a new force rather than a new particle, or possibly more simply a modification to an existing force. A new force would be one of the most extreme changes, implying at least 1 new particle. At a minimum I question the quality of the reporting when the most radical possibility is the first one listed.
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#34
by
CoolScience
on 21 Aug, 2023 09:42
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The implication was quite clearly space drives
There is far more to space travel than just the burney bits at the end.
I know that, but when someone's reaction to a "new force" is that it must be applicable to space travel, it is pretty clear the intent is for propulsion. Bob's reply after that about Z Bosons having some kind of magic use for propulsion makes this even more obvious.
A better understanding of subatomic behaviour may allow for (for example) design of more effective physical radiation shielding, more efficient charged particle deflection, novel sensor systems (e.g. more remote mascon sensors, sensors than can perform fine volumetric measurements of the operational state of the inside of your fission or fusion reactor), etc. Even if a 'fifth force' only has notable effects on the strong and weak nuclear forces, that still has implications for nuclear and condensed matter physics that may have applications at the macroscale.
None of these are plausible, some are straight up sci-fi magic, and even your example of "only" affecting the strong and weak nuclear force is a far stronger statement than what can be expected from something that has never been noticed in any other experiment, except for modifying the wobble of a muon in one specific case.
Relativistic physics doesn't just deal with hypothetical c-fractional drives, after all. Without an understanding of relativistic physics there would - for example - be no Sagnac effect, which means no ring-laser gyros, which would mean spacecraft would be stuck using mechanical gimbals with all their associated issues (minimum mass, power consumption, gimbal-lock, etc).
You are now just bringing up irrelevant things, and also demonstrating your own lack of knowledge. (MEMS gyros are standard and commonly used)
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#35
by
CoolScience
on 21 Aug, 2023 10:00
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A niche use of glowing paint that could also be handled by flashlights, and which doesn't require any actual knowledge of the detailed radioactive processes to apply is in no way a relevant counter example.
It was promethium-147 encapsulated in glass capsules sealed inside acrylic toggle switches. It was a backup to the 3 penlights issued to each crewman since back in the 60's they only had a reliability of hours to days. Relevance superbly explained by edzieba above.
Please go back and read my post because what you wrote here indicates that you entirely missed the point. The specific chemicals or having multiple layers doesn't change that it is basically a paint, but also what you call it doesn't matter, because the point of what you quoted here is that you don't need to know anything about the weak force for this kind of lighting. Even that is not the main point of my post, which was that you simply and plainly ignored the original context so even if you counted this as an application of the weak force, it does not counter what ugordan originally said.
You have actually stated that you agree with what ugordan's point was so why do you keep insisting on misrepresenting things and ignoring anything you find inconvenient in your replies?
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#36
by
edzieba
on 21 Aug, 2023 10:09
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Relativistic physics doesn't just deal with hypothetical c-fractional drives, after all. Without an understanding of relativistic physics there would - for example - be no Sagnac effect, which means no ring-laser gyros, which would mean spacecraft would be stuck using mechanical gimbals with all their associated issues (minimum mass, power consumption, gimbal-lock, etc).
You are now just bringing up irrelevant things, and also demonstrating your own lack of knowledge. (MEMS gyros are standard and commonly used)
MEMS gyros are commonly used for consumer devices in groundside applications, where you have the G-vector to use as a baseline to clamp their poor drift characteristics (and ideally incorporate a 3-axis magnetometer to use the local magnetic field to clamp yaw drift). They are not
close to stable enough for satellite use without an independent absolute orientation source to act as a baseline to clamp drift.
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#37
by
CoolScience
on 21 Aug, 2023 14:25
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Relativistic physics doesn't just deal with hypothetical c-fractional drives, after all. Without an understanding of relativistic physics there would - for example - be no Sagnac effect, which means no ring-laser gyros, which would mean spacecraft would be stuck using mechanical gimbals with all their associated issues (minimum mass, power consumption, gimbal-lock, etc).
You are now just bringing up irrelevant things, and also demonstrating your own lack of knowledge. (MEMS gyros are standard and commonly used)
MEMS gyros are commonly used for consumer devices in groundside applications, where you have the G-vector to use as a baseline to clamp their poor drift characteristics (and ideally incorporate a 3-axis magnetometer to use the local magnetic field to clamp yaw drift). They are not close to stable enough for satellite use without an independent absolute orientation source to act as a baseline to clamp drift.
Independent correction sources like star trackers or sun sensors which are standard equipment on satellites? RLGs are not perfect either, and even when they are good enough for a mission duration, absolute starting attitude would still be needed, so absolute references will still be required in general.
Since the only thing you responded to was a side note about an irrelevant off topic statement you made, are you not disagreeing with the actually more relevant portions of my post?
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#38
by
jimvela
on 21 Aug, 2023 14:49
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MEMS gyros are commonly used for consumer devices in groundside applications, where you have the G-vector to use as a baseline to clamp their poor drift characteristics (and ideally incorporate a 3-axis magnetometer to use the local magnetic field to clamp yaw drift). They are not close to stable enough for satellite use without an independent absolute orientation source to act as a baseline to clamp drift.
That's not correct. As a counterexample, consider the DTU micro Advanced Stellar Compas product.
Inside each of the two independent CHUs (Camera Head Units) in this product, there are MIRUs which are MEMS devices.
These are in use for spacecraft flight applications out to beyond LEO.
These aren't of the same capability of an IMU like an LN200S, but are perfectly capable of supporting spacecraft GNC needs.
Edit: corrected product name.
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#39
by
edzieba
on 21 Aug, 2023 15:18
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Since the only thing you responded to was a side note about an irrelevant off topic statement you made, are you not disagreeing with the actually more relevant portions of my post?
Since "they said X, but they surely must really mean Y" is a basic Straw Man, its not worth considering further.
MEMS gyros are commonly used for consumer devices in groundside applications, where you have the G-vector to use as a baseline to clamp their poor drift characteristics (and ideally incorporate a 3-axis magnetometer to use the local magnetic field to clamp yaw drift). They are not close to stable enough for satellite use without an independent absolute orientation source to act as a baseline to clamp drift.
That's not correct. As a counterexample, consider the DTU micro Advanced Stellar Camera product.
Inside each of the two independent CHUs (Camera Head Units) in this product, there are MIRUs which are MEMS devices.
These are in use for spacecraft flight applications out to beyond LEO.
These aren't of the same capability of an IMU like an LN200S, but are perfectly capable of supporting spacecraft GNC needs.
I can't find a 'micro Advanced Stellar Camera', though there is the 'micro Advanced stellar Compass', though that contains no IMU (MEMS or otherwise) in either the CHUs or processor box. Its update rate is capped at the star tracker update rate, which is also a dead giveaway that it's a purely imaging system. Is there another system you're thinking of?
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#40
by
jimvela
on 21 Aug, 2023 15:49
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I can't find a 'micro Advanced Stellar Camera', though there is the 'micro Advanced stellar Compass', though that contains no IMU (MEMS or otherwise) in either the CHUs or processor box. Its update rate is capped at the star tracker update rate, which is also a dead giveaway that it's a purely imaging system. Is there another system you're thinking of?
I mistyped the uASC product's formal name. It's not a purely imaging system. A CHU can (and does) lose lock on the starfield and will still report rate information from the MIRUs.
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#41
by
AnalogMan
on 21 Aug, 2023 16:01
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Some progress is being made with MEMS Inertial Measurement Units (IMUs) for spacecraft use:
Navigation Grade MEMS IMU for A Satellite
Wanliang Zhao, Yuxiang Cheng, Sihan Zhao, Xiaomao Hu, Yijie Rong, Jie Duan and Jiawei Chen
Micromachines 2021, 12, 151.
https://doi.org/10.3390/mi12020151 Published: 4 February 2021
Abstract: This paper presents a navigation grade micro-electromechanical system (MEMS) inertial measurement unit (IMU) that was successfully applied for the first time in the Lobster-Eye X-ray Satellite in July 2020. A six-axis MEMS gyroscope redundant configuration is adopted in the unit to improve the performance through mutual calibration of a set of two-axis gyroscopes in the same direction. In the paper, a satisfactory precision of the gyroscope is achieved by customized and self-calibration gyroscopes whose parameters are adjusted at the expense of bandwidth and dynamics.
According to the in-orbit measured data, the MEMS IMU provides an outstanding precision of better than 0.02 °/h (1σ) with excellent bias instability of 0.006 °/h and angle random walk (ARW) of around 0.003 °/√h. It is the highest precision MEMS IMU for commercial aerospace use ever publicly reported in the world to date.
[..]
The Lobster-Eye X-ray Satellite employed a MEMS IMU and a navigation grade fiber optic gyroscope (FOG) unit weighing 430 g. The in-orbit data of the MEMS unit transmitted from the satellite and the FOG unit almost completely overlap each other, as displayed in Figure 10, which means that the output and control effect of the MEMS IMU is similar to that of the FOG unit on the same satellite. Meanwhile, the weight and volume of the MEMS unit are only about 1/2 of the FOG unit.
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#42
by
CoolScience
on 21 Aug, 2023 17:39
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Since the only thing you responded to was a side note about an irrelevant off topic statement you made, are you not disagreeing with the actually more relevant portions of my post?
Since "they said X, but they surely must really mean Y" is a basic Straw Man, its not worth considering further.
You and InterestedEngineer are the ones who are trying to assert that Bob Wood's statement "It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel." was somehow referring to niche applications. His first reply after that to ugordan was about magic propulsion based on Z Bosons. He clearly was not thinking about something niche. Ugordan has repeatedly made clear the intent as well. My first post here pointed out that Interested Engineer trying to tell ugordan what ugordan meant is clearly inappropriate and wrong, especially given the ignored context.
You are not only trying to invert what I said, accusing me of doing exactly the bad behavior I was pointing out, you are still ignoring the part of my reply where I pointed out your list of supposed applications for the new force that were completely implausible. That part was at least relevant to the thread, unlike the gyro discussion where you are just demonstrating the extent to which you are willing to move goal posts and make assertions on things you haven't actually researched.
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#43
by
Robotbeat
on 21 Aug, 2023 23:06
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Sure sounds like "New Physics" to me.
Yeah, and arguably the LK99 thread should’ve been here, too.
Anything that would mean a physics novel prize if proven correct probably belongs here.
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#44
by
InterestedEngineer
on 22 Aug, 2023 03:08
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Instead of blaming random parties for stuff being off thread for 3 pages, how about we return to.
Exactly what is this 5th force, and what's the theory behind it, and what implications does this fifth force have besides disturbing the motion, ever so slightly, of muons?
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#45
by
Bob Woods
on 22 Aug, 2023 07:06
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Photons have ZERO mass. Z Bosons have a mass of 90 GeV/c2 . That's a big difference.
It is in fact a big difference, which makes them a terrible idea to use for propulsion. 90 GeV of photons have 90 Gev /c of momentum. a 90 GeV Z boson has zero momentum. In all cases, you are better off turning energy into photons than creating massive particles and accelerating them. The only reason we use massive particles (atoms/molecules) for modern space propulsion is that short of an antimatter drive, we cannot extract more energy from them, and we are not spending energy to synthesize them. Z bosons are simple to extract energy from, just wait a split second for them to decay, or better, don't produce them in the first place.
The general equation:
E^2 = (p*c)^2 + (m0 * c^2)^2
p is momentum, to maximize that, you want to minimize m0.
You claimed that your physics understanding is 50 years old, so far between your incorrect claim that Z Bosons have some kind of special relationship with momentum (they only have the standard one that all particles do) and now an implication that more mass would help rather than hurt it, there is no time period where your knowledge would be correct. I suggest you ask more questions and not make assertions on things that you have not researched.
Speculation is the bedrock of change. Consider you develop a way to repeatedly create Z Bosons, maybe billions, against a substrate using focused, simple, EM radiation, thereby creating a controllable transfer of momentum.
Just because you don't consider it possible is not proof that it is impossible.
It's all about finding a different way, than all the ways we have created in the past.
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#46
by
CoolScience
on 22 Aug, 2023 14:29
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Speculation is the bedrock of change. Consider you develop a way to repeatedly create Z Bosons, maybe billions, against a substrate using focused, simple, EM radiation, thereby creating a controllable transfer of momentum.
Just because you don't consider it possible is not proof that it is impossible.
It's all about finding a different way, than all the ways we have created in the past.
It does not matter if you somehow come up with a way to efficiently generate Z Bosons. Something does not come from nothing, and energy does not appear out of nowhere. The energy that goes into creating a Z Boson will always be equal to its rest mass, this is simply fundamental. You keep making up nonsense terms like "controllable transfer of momentum." Rocket exhaust is a controllable transfer of momentum. You seem to be implying that Z Bosons will let you simply ignore conservation of momentum and get a different result, for the third time, they have no relationship with momentum different from any ordinary matter. It is quite simply better in all cases to use the energy that would go into them to emit massless particles like photons, or to accelerate any waste mass (such as burned rocket propellant.)
This is not about what "I consider" impossible. This is you stating things that are simply factually wrong literally on the level of claiming 1+1=3. Ignoring facts like this and trying to dismiss it as opinion frankly demonstrates a contempt for science. If this is not what you meant to communicate, it should be simple for you to apologize and then stop repeating things that you have already been told are simply wrong and contrary to facts multiple times.
Conservation laws are extremely fundamental, they have literally been proven to exist in some form (Noether's theorem) We know the relationships between mass energy and momentum, countless experiments have confirmed this, they aren't going to stop applying just because you wish it.
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#47
by
JohnFornaro
on 23 Aug, 2023 14:03
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Speculation is the bedrock of change. ...
Just because you don't consider it possible is not proof that it is impossible.
This is not about what "I consider" impossible.
While it is broadly true that speculation is the "bedrock" of change, Bob is making a category error in his attempt to "consider" impossiblility.
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#48
by
leovinus
on 23 Aug, 2023 14:11
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Can I share my 2 cents of contribution here? IIRC the discrepancy is in the muon measurement vs traditional Feynman integrations for the standard model. There was a footnote that the newer style lattice calculations DID agree with standard model and measurement. Hence I would expect an improved traditional calculation to resolve all discrepancy. Simplest solution really and happened with other particles as well IIRC.