rdale - 18/12/2006 12:14 PMHere's a rough picture for now...Thursday: Acceptable weather at KSC, small chance of a shower but nothing problematicFriday: Probably too many rain showers and winds at both KSC & White Sands, Edwards beautifulSaturday: Still bad at KSC & White Sands, turning a little worse at Edwards but still acceptable
Paul Adams - 18/12/2006 7:04 PMWhat are Fridays landing times?Paul
rdale - 19/12/2006 1:14 AMHere's a rough picture for now...Thursday: Acceptable weather at KSC, small chance of a shower but nothing problematicFriday: Probably too many rain showers and winds at both KSC & White Sands, Edwards beautifulSaturday: Still bad at KSC & White Sands, turning a little worse at Edwards (weak system expected to come onshore in the northwest and that may bring in more clouds and a little more wind for CA, but emphasis on "little")KSC landing is currently scheduled for 3:56pm Friday.
fdasun - 19/12/2006 9:04 AMDiscovery is slated for undocking today. Why the crew can not attempt a landing on Thursday without skipping the final TPS inspection ?
Chris Bergin - 20/12/2006 8:40 AMGetting White Sands prepared is the basis of nearly all the MER chatter right now.
Gary - 20/12/2006 9:03 AMMy vote is on KSC. I think Edwards is out due to winds. White Sands is an option but was only used at the start of the shuttle programme because the shuttle had no nose-gear steering.
Gary - 20/12/2006 3:03 PMMy vote is on KSC. I think Edwards is out due to winds. White Sands is an option but was only used at the start of the shuttle programme because the shuttle had no nose-gear steering.
Gary - 20/12/2006 9:03 AMMy vote is on KSC. I think Edwards is out due to winds. White Sands is an option but was only used at the start of the shuttle programme because the shuttle had no nose-gear steering and white sands has lovely large open space.
psloss - 20/12/2006 2:24 PMQuoteGary - 20/12/2006 9:03 AMMy vote is on KSC. I think Edwards is out due to winds. White Sands is an option but was only used at the start of the shuttle programme because the shuttle had no nose-gear steering and white sands has lovely large open space.Also w.r.t, to nose gear steering, they did have main gear brakes and differential braking and that carried into KSC landings.
Gary - 20/12/2006 9:42 AMTrue, But STS-51D landed at KSC and used differential braking thanks to crosswinds and it resulted in a tire blow out and brake damage. All landings used Edwards as primary until the nose gear steering was certified.http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/51-d/mission-51-d.html
rdale - 20/12/2006 9:33 AMWhen I said I 'voted' for White Sands, I meant that was where I believe the shuttle will land - not registering a preference ;>
Fred Clausen - 20/12/2006 10:38 AMQuoterdale - 20/12/2006 9:33 AMWhen I said I 'voted' for White Sands, I meant that was where I believe the shuttle will land - not registering a preference ;>While I have nothing significant to add, I live about 20 minutes from the White Sands area and would love to see a landing here.
rdale - 20/12/2006 11:33 AM Edwards AFB forecasters have now gone with the worse forecast on today's update, WNW 18G25. http://www.edwards.af.mil/text/fiveday.htm The computer that had been saying NE winds at 20+mph now says WNW 20-25mph. When I said I 'voted' for White Sands, I meant that was where I believe the shuttle will land - not registering a preference ;>
Any difference in the crosswind constraint at Edwards? Is it same as KSC which I think is 15knts?
Sorry about the double post, not sure what I did and don't have the usual delete button.
The only pre-positioned equipment at White Sands is a shuttle tow bar, a tractor for towing the orbiter to a servicing area, a set of stairs to position by the ship's side hatch and a motor home to serve as an "astrovan."After landing on the gypsum runway, the crew would power down the shuttle's electrical systems, exit and depart the area. Discovery would be towed to a concrete pad that is somewhat out of the wind to minimize damage cause by blowing gypsum dust.And then the shuttle would simply sit, awaiting equipment and personnel from Kennedy and Edwards. With no power or heated purge air, Discovery would be exposed to sub-freezing temperatures for two days, possibly causing thruster seals to rupture. That would require time-consuming repairs back at Kennedy should that actually occur.Once power and purge air are available, engineers would service the shuttle's hydraulic system and rocket engine valves and position the ship's three main engines for attachment of an aerodynamic cone required for the ferry flight back to Florida. The cone itself would have to be disassembled at Edwards, shipped to White Sands and then re-assembled.Likewise, engineers would have to move and re-assemble a huge harness-like device to eventually pick the shuttle up for attachment to its 747 transport jet. The huge cranes required to do the heavy lifting would have to be shipped in and assembled on site.
hutchel - 20/12/2006 12:30 PMThe term UGLY comes to mind - so much for the CY2007 Schedule if White Sands is where Discovery comes to a stop.Safety is Safety though.
RedSky - 20/12/2006 3:39 PMI don't understand the issue of having an orbiter out in the cold (possibly freezing temps) at White Sands. Is there no spare hanger it could be towed into after safing? Couldn't they rig forced air heaters to pump in dry warm air? They make it sound like she'll be stranded out in the open in the wilderness. They must have electricity there... no?
STS-500Cmdr - 20/12/2006 4:40 PMLanding at WSSH/NOR you got a lakebed, sand or gypsum--and when you talk of the stairs being rolled up to the side and the RV--sounds to me like the good ol' days of the shuttle era--like it was in the '80's.I was going to ask-i know i ran a similiar q by Jim in the Q&A 2 yesterday but i was going to ask if the lakebed rwys at Edwards were being tossed around with the wind direction and such and when you need to get on the ground like they do on Friday. but as i was typing a question-Phil Engelhauf just answered it for me--EDW lakebed is for emergencies.Forgive me i was much younger and kinda missed the 80's good ol' days of shuttle.
psloss - 20/12/2006 3:54 PMQuoteRedSky - 20/12/2006 3:39 PMI don't understand the issue of having an orbiter out in the cold (possibly freezing temps) at White Sands. Is there no spare hanger it could be towed into after safing? Couldn't they rig forced air heaters to pump in dry warm air? They make it sound like she'll be stranded out in the open in the wilderness. They must have electricity there... no?At least one issue is that the vehicle will still have hazardous chemicals in it -- the hypergolics, for example.Same thing at Edwards -- the orbiter is towed to and stays at the mate-demate facility, which is exposed. (Edwards has the facilities for the orbiter, but the low temp this morning was in the teens, I believe, so pretty cold there, too.)
Jim - 20/12/2006 6:36 PMNo hangArs at WSSH.
RedSky - 20/12/2006 8:50 PMQuoteJim - 20/12/2006 6:36 PMNo hangArs at WSSH. So what is there that qualifies it as a "space harbor"?
RedSky - 20/12/2006 8:50 PMSo what is there that qualifies it as a "space harbor"?
The runways include all landing aids necessary for a Shuttle landing, including the Microwave Scan Beam Landing System (MSBLS). Crash and rescue emergency personnel are provided for practice sessions and for any landings by nearby Holloman Air Force Base. The runways at the Space Harbor are completely lit with Precision Approach Path Indicator (PAPI) lights; distance-to-go lights; strobe lights; reflectors; and xenon spotlights that total more than 11 billion candlepower.
FLIGHT RULE VIOLATIONS: KSC ... CIG/PRECIP EDW ... XWIND NOR ... NONE
Entry Weather - The Spaceflight Meteorology Group and the Entry Team continues tomonitor the weather and associated forecasting models. Overall, the weather forecast hasnot changed significantly since yesterday. Both KSC and EDW continue to have marginalforecasts for EOM. For KSC, there is a chance of rainshowers and broken clouds at 5000feet. At Edwards the crosswinds (310/12G18) are forecast to be out of limits, gusting to 18knots although the EDW winds might swing to the west and decrease as the day progressessuch that the second EDW rev may be better. NOR weather is GO for a landing on EOM.There was 0.16 inches of rain at NOR on FD 11 but the lakebed remains green and therunways are in good condition.Northrup Landing - KSC is making plans to send additional GSE and personnel to NORprior to FD14 (EOM) landing opportunities. At NOR, the ground team is planning to openthe hatch, per nominal KSC/EDW ops, but there is no crew transport vehicle. There will bea stairway truck with a small white room at the top. The current plan is to tow off the runwayas soon as possible in order to get Discovery to power and purge units which will bestationed at the staging area.
martynwilliams - 21/12/2006 11:43 AMIt’s actually quite surprising that the SSP would face these difficulties at, what is the 2nd back-up landing site. What would happen if a vehicle had to land at one of the TAL sites, or another contingency abort site? If one of the vehicles landed up in Spain or France – and if it takes circa 45 days for a turnaround at what is a CONUS site – then who knows how things would pan out with a TAL landing.
joncz - 21/12/2006 5:12 PMQuotemartynwilliams - 21/12/2006 11:43 AMIt’s actually quite surprising that the SSP would face these difficulties at, what is the 2nd back-up landing site. What would happen if a vehicle had to land at one of the TAL sites, or another contingency abort site? If one of the vehicles landed up in Spain or France – and if it takes circa 45 days for a turnaround at what is a CONUS site – then who knows how things would pan out with a TAL landing.I would hazard a guess that if the shuttle had to make an intact abort to a TAL site, the standdown would be much longer than 45 days... and would likely be an end of program event.
Nassau International Airport, Bahamas
Gary - 21/12/2006 5:23 PMAlso, NASA can get resources on site fairly quickly plus I imagine that there are a few staff who have emergency training just in case of a TAL or other problem requiring an emergency landing. Probably more so at Moron and Istres than Fairford.
joncz - 21/12/2006 11:12 AMQuotemartynwilliams - 21/12/2006 11:43 AMIt’s actually quite surprising that the SSP would face these difficulties at, what is the 2nd back-up landing site. What would happen if a vehicle had to land at one of the TAL sites, or another contingency abort site? If one of the vehicles landed up in Spain or France – and if it takes circa 45 days for a turnaround at what is a CONUS site – then who knows how things would pan out with a TAL landing.I would hazard a guess that if the shuttle had to make an intact abort to a TAL site, the standdown would be much longer than 45 days... and would likely be an end of program event.
shuttlefan - 21/12/2006 10:50 AMWhy do you believe it would be an end-of-program event?
jimvela - 21/12/2006 1:00 PMAny event on ascent that caused an abort to an emergency landing site would be a program-ending event. The program cannot survive the loss of another vehicle, nor another 2+ year return-to-flight program to fix whatever went wrong to cause the in-flight abort. Most of the scenarios I can think of that would result in an abort during ascent carry high probability of loss of vehicle/loss of crew.
simcosmos - 21/12/2006 5:56 PMJust a small side note but (and only talking about what concerns me) Azores (in the above landing sites) is also Portugal / Europe António
hutchel - 21/12/2006 2:24 PMI can just see the return trip to KSC - Maybe strapped to the deck of an Aircraft Carrier? Certainly the 747 can't carry enough gas to shuttle it.
martynwilliams - 21/12/2006 5:26 PMI’m not sure if it’s still active, but I have the patch of the “RAF Fairford Space Shuttle Support Team”
hutchel - 21/12/2006 8:24 PMI can just see the return trip to KSC - Maybe strapped to the deck of an Aircraft Carrier? Certainly the 747 can't carry enough gas to shuttle it.
Jim - 21/12/2006 9:04 PMlake bed is wet
rdale - 21/12/2006 9:09 PMSo if we're lucky all this NOR talk may be for naught ;>
rdale - 22/12/2006 4:29 AMWSMR forecasters say lows will be near 32 Saturday morning, then in the twenties for the next few... https://wsmrc2vger.wsmr.army.mil/weather/public/forecast.htm
rdale - 22/12/2006 4:40 AMNo concern at all? I'd have to believe that the orbiter at least externally going through a hard freeze / thaw cycle for two months might be at least something they'd need to examine closely before sending back up...
EW-3 - 21/12/2006 10:55 PMOK, another beginner question. What exactly is wrong with the KSC conditions? Low cloud deck? Why is the shuttle different than any other aircraft landing under IFR. Is there some absolute reason, based on the laws of physics why it can't land safely?
EW-3 - 22/12/2006 2:51 AMthank you, can you expand on that please? why are clouds an issue? I'm being very simple minded here I know, but it seems silly to land at White Sands because of clouds. Same question for precip. I can understand worrying about lightening or high winds that could cause real problems, but clouds and precip seems a bit weak.....
dutch courage - 22/12/2006 11:50 AMWill there be a special meeting to determine which landing site will be used or will the flight director decide?
rdale - 22/12/2006 6:25 AMNWS Spaceflight Met Group forecast was not updated at 8pm last night, should be at 8am-ish today.
Rocket Nut - 22/12/2006 7:17 AMI would be interested to see the probably damage to tiles at 300-500 kt speeds that the shuttle is achieving during descent at altitudes where rain is probable.
sawtooth - 22/12/2006 6:02 AMThey avoid rain for visibility reasons, to avoid water getting in the tiles and also wet runway issues. I'm fairly certain that the tiles are coated with a sealant that gets removed on re-entry so they are more like to end up with water in them if they get wet post landing which means more time under heaters to dry out the tiles. Any water trapped in the tiles would then expand to ice if they launched again without getting the tiles dry.
Chris Bergin - 22/12/2006 3:07 PMWhere do we stand right now?
Gary - 22/12/2006 10:14 AMLooks like White Sands is going to see a shuttle.
TJL - 22/12/2006 3:17 PMDoes the forecast for KSC improve any on Saturday?
rdale - 22/12/2006 3:16 PMQuoteGary - 22/12/2006 10:14 AMLooks like White Sands is going to see a shuttle.CLEARLY too early to rule out KSC. That doesn't need to happen for a few hours yet, so no need to take them off the board today especially given the random nature of clouds and wind. Look how many people counted out the first two launch attempts yet weather beat the "official" forecast...
TJL - 22/12/2006 10:17 AMDoes the forecast for KSC improve any on Saturday?
gordo - 22/12/2006 10:43 AMJohn Kelly of Fla today has got a line with the team expected to bring the orbiter into NOR on its first opportunity if its green and KSC is red from the orbit beofre
Oli4 - 22/12/2006 10:57 AMAnyone caring to decipher the wheater codes for me or post a link where everything is translated in plain english? Thank you very much.
gordo - 22/12/2006 11:20 AMI wonder if the Fla today story is based on the weather front getting close to NOR on the final attempt today. So get them home when it is Green.
NORTHRUP STRIP...WHITE SANDS SPACE HARBOR NM FIRST OPPORTUNITY NOR SCT150 BKN200 7 18005P08 SECOND OPPORTUNITY NOR BKN150 BKN200 7 15003P06
rdale - 22/12/2006 11:38 AMBad weather is not approaching NOR. The forecast is good, the observed is good.
rdale - 22/12/2006 11:49 AMThey have to give up Edwards 205 if they try KSC 202 due to suit time.
landofgrey - 22/12/2006 5:03 PM"At this point we'd like to press on and see what we get" from CAPCOM Chris Ferguson. They're going to press on the timeline toward closing the doors and see what develops with the weather. It's developing as predicted.
landofgrey - 22/12/2006 6:03 PM"At this point we'd like to press on and see what we get" from CAPCOM Chris Ferguson. They're going to press on the timeline toward closing the doors and see what develops with the weather. It's developing as predicted.
landofgrey - 22/12/2006 6:13 PMYeh, I caught myself on that. Trying to copy/paste from my list of names and I pasted the wrong one. Mission Control just gave the GO for payload bay door closing.
marsguy - 22/12/2006 12:42 PM What exactly are the weather constraints for the landing at KSC? I don't personally know the exact requirements, but looking at the skies above the SLF, it seems to me that they would be in violation.
This is from a January 2003 PAO release - may not be exact, but should give you an idea.
The end of mission landing weather forecast is prepared by the NOAA National Weather Service Space Flight Meteorology Group in Houston for the astronauts, Flight Director and Mission Management Team. All criteria refer to observed and forecast weather conditions. Decision time for the de-orbit burn is 70 - 90 minutes before landing. The weather criteria are:- Cloud coverage of 4/8 or less below 8,000 feet and a visibility of 5 miles or greater required.- The peak cross wind cannot exceed 15 knots, 12 knots at night. If the mission duration is greater than 20 days the limit is 12 knots, day and night.- Headwind cannot exceed 25 knots.- Tailwind cannot exceed 10 knots average, 15 knots peak.- No thunderstorm, lightning, or precipitation activity is within 30 nautical miles of the Shuttle Landing Facility.- Detached opaque thunderstorm anvils less than three hours old must not be within 20 nautical miles of the Shuttle Landing Facility, or within 10 nautical miles of the flight path when the orbiter is within 30 nautical miles of the runway. - Turbulence must be less than or equal to moderate intensity.- Consideration may be given for landing with a "no go" observation and a "go" forecast if at decision time analysis clearly indicates a continuing trend of improving weather conditions, and the forecast states that all weather criteria will be met at landing time.
RDale also posted these earlier in this thread - sorry, I should have looked harder!
psloss - 22/12/2006 9:03 AMMight be moot point if they can get into KSC, but did anyone hear whether they were able to conserve to get a seventh opportunity or not? I believe Phil Engelauf talked about a standard of 3 + 3 opportunities on Friday and Saturday, but that they might be able to do 3 + 4 or 4 + 3.
rdale - 22/12/2006 1:32 PMThe bad weather "just" west is about 200 miles west so no bearing. However the showers from the south will be within the 30mi radius before 2pm, and there's more behind. I have an obbligation with my "real" job for about an hour - psloss can you post the current obs while I'm away?
jschaef5 - 22/12/2006 1:57 PMto see the winds at Edwards try this:http://www.edwards.af.mil/egads/egads.jpgLooking at EDW's TAF it looks like the winds are dying down...KEDW 221818 32012G18KT BECMG 2324 02012KT BECMG 0809 VRB06KTand even right now the metar is showing lower than forcasted winds
gordo - 22/12/2006 8:08 PMMETAR KEDW 221955Z 33006KT 45SM FEW040 FEW100Wind from SE at 6KTs No Gusts reported.
mark147 - 22/12/2006 8:18 PMQuotegordo - 22/12/2006 8:08 PMMETAR KEDW 221955Z 33006KT 45SM FEW040 FEW100Wind from SE at 6KTs No Gusts reported.Actually, that's wind from the NW at 6kts and the gust speed could be 9kts higher without being reported in the METAR (i.e. 15 kts).
sts1canada - 22/12/2006 4:15 PMnot sure why they are concerned about them moving in the 30 naut. mile circle around the SLF at landing time.
