Starlink direct to cell (was SpaceX & T-mobile event 25 Aug 2022)

[sanman]

...
Is this the new Killer App for Starship?
...

Starlink V2 itself already is.

Alright, then is this global cellular network the Killer App for Starlink v2 ?

Bill Gates once described the Internet as an emerging "Global Brain"

Starlink v2 and other mega-constellations seem like the Cortex for such a brain

[Robotbeat]

…
Since the V2 mini sats don’t support handhelds,

Where does this claim come from??

Quit repeating it or provide a solid source. It has not been well-established yet. It seems pretty unlikely given this is such a big part of the whole rationale for V2, and it’s awfully convenient come from someone who is literally invested in a competitor.

[MP99]

…
Since the V2 mini sats don’t support handhelds,

Where does this claim come from??

Quit repeating it or provide a solid source. It has not been well-established yet. It seems pretty unlikely given this is such a big part of the whole rationale for V2, and it’s awfully convenient come from someone who is literally invested in a competitor.

Direct comment from Elon at the event.

Mini because no mobile antenna.

[Robotbeat]

Thank you!

[gongora]

…
Since the V2 mini sats don’t support handhelds,

Where does this claim come from??

Quit repeating it or provide a solid source. It has not been well-established yet. It seems pretty unlikely given this is such a big part of the whole rationale for V2, and it’s awfully convenient come from someone who is literally invested in a competitor.

Direct comment from Elon at the event.

Mini because no mobile antenna.

Could someone please point me to where Elon supposedly said this?  I don't remember it and he didn't say it when replying to Eric Berger.

[JayWee]

…
Since the V2 mini sats don’t support handhelds,

Where does this claim come from??

Quit repeating it or provide a solid source. It has not been well-established yet. It seems pretty unlikely given this is such a big part of the whole rationale for V2, and it’s awfully convenient come from someone who is literally invested in a competitor.

Direct comment from Elon at the event.

Mini because no mobile antenna.

Could someone please point me to where Elon supposedly said this?  I don't remember it and he didn't say it when replying to Eric Berger.

But before looking at the transcript in detail, I could've sworn I heard it too.
It's kind of implied.
He says "5x5m cell antena big, meant for Starship. If Starship late, Starlink V2-mini will go on F9".
But it's true at the start he says "primarily for v2 sat" which does not imply "exclusively".

um yeah so we we think like the the service will be primarily a starlink uh v2 uh satellite the starlink v2 is uh the main body of the satellite is about seven meters long uh so call it maybe 40 in longer than an suv and then the uh the antennas that we're talking about here would be supplemental to the ku and ka antennas that we're currently using on sonic 1 and uh to the the laser links so the sonic 2 will satellites uh we tend to have uh k a k u improve ku and um obviously all the laser links and then in addition we would uh fold out the um the sort of cell spectrum antenna that would be also quite large so on the order of uh five or six meters uh on on a side so roughly 25 square meters and then can you get those in the falcon 9 payload fairing uh the starlink v2 is meant for starship um we we might yeah there's another starship like those things um so the the starlink v2 satellites are are very large and uh and too big to fit in a falcon 9. uh but the uh we are we are actually looking at an interim uh solution which is like a sort of starlink v2 mini that would um maybe launch uh if if starlink if the starship is program is delayed uh longer than expected would launch a sort of a small a smaller uh starlink v2 kind of mini that would fit on a falcon 9

[sanman]

…
Since the V2 mini sats don’t support handhelds,

Where does this claim come from??

Quit repeating it or provide a solid source. It has not been well-established yet. It seems pretty unlikely given this is such a big part of the whole rationale for V2, and it’s awfully convenient come from someone who is literally invested in a competitor.

Direct comment from Elon at the event.

Mini because no mobile antenna.

Is v2's  mobile antenna that 25-square-meter thing that Elon mentioned at the press event?

So that will not be on the mini version that will fit in F9's fairing?

[M.E.T.]

…
Since the V2 mini sats don’t support handhelds,

Where does this claim come from??

Quit repeating it or provide a solid source. It has not been well-established yet. It seems pretty unlikely given this is such a big part of the whole rationale for V2, and it’s awfully convenient come from someone who is literally invested in a competitor.

Direct comment from Elon at the event.

Mini because no mobile antenna.

Is v2's  mobile antenna that 25-square-meter thing that Elon mentioned at the press event?

So that will not be on the mini version that will fit in F9's fairing?

My interpretation from Elon’s comments was that it will not be on the mini version. But I also got the impression that he wasn’t giving a lot of thought /airtime to the mini V2.

It seems to be more of a risk mitigation fallback option rather than a firm plan. In his mind, Starship will be ready and the mini version not necessary.

At least, that’s how I interpreted his tone when replying to Eric on that question.

[Danderman]

I am hearing that Starlink handheld service is only available at 1.9 - 2.0 MHz, which is  T-Mobile spectrum in the US. I am not sure why Starlink chose this frequency (apart from the T-Mobile partnership), since AFAIK, they aren’t licensed for this frequency elsewhere.

Is there a technical limitation that bars Starlink from partnering with MNOs that aren’t licensed for this frequency?

I don’t understand why Starlink sats can’t contain an independent radio that can operate at different frequencies.

Please don’t answer that Gen 3 will contain a separate radio for handhelds.

[Asteroza]

...
Is this the new Killer App for Starship?
...

Starlink V2 itself already is.

Alright, then is this global cellular network the Killer App for Starlink v2 ?

Bill Gates once described the Internet as an emerging "Global Brain"

Starlink v2 and other mega-constellations seem like the Cortex for such a brain

Global 24/7 satellite cellular is it's own killer app, but to build it requires a large constellation, bordering on mega constellation depending on the satellite antenna scheme. It requires either huge investment, or riding on the coattails of some other constellation.

Spacemobile and Lynk.Global's whole thesis is custom terminals are an albatross around a constellation's neck, at least for global mass market adoption. But the frequencies available hamstring the satellite side of things since your antenna must be huge, if the terminals are bog standard smartphones. This forced Spacemobile to use that huge folding flat panel phased array antenna (900 square meters?).

Previous concepts (Orbweaver) envisioned eating the aluminum from upper stages to 3D print a large reflector antenna focusing on a smaller phased array. Or some sort of combiner aggregate satellite, the extreme example being docking hundreds of cubesats together.

It's going to be very interesting what style of antenna SpaceX will use for V2 to support cellular comms. And the deployment mechanism, since it appears to not be part of the bus ventral panel like Starlink itself is.

[Asteroza]

As one of the founders of Lynk, I welcome SpaceX entering this market. First, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. More to the point, this profoundly validates Lynk’s vision and market assessment.

The market indeed is large, plenty for multiple providers.

An expected reply by a startup when the 800lbs gorilla walks in.

Sorry, not trying to needle you here, but it does seem like a stereotypical PR push by a startup when a FAANG company rolls in.

This is more of a threat to Lynk than it is to AST SpaceMobile, at least in the near future.  AST is higher bandwidth and already has partnerships globally.

I would have thought the greater threat would be to SpaceMobile, as they were fundamentally reliant on partner spectrum and their initial revenue stream was was predicated on IoT like messaging over conventional cellular modems. Which is exactly this Starlink service, but without the sat density to meaningfully compete in a timely fashion without an enormous step up in investment and deployment schedule.

I was under the impression that Lynk was the technically superior offering, due to being a full flying basestation and with its own spectrum. Though with the computing power available on a Starlink, running an openRAN edge software container onboard as a secondary payload kinda takes the wind out of Lynk's sails. In comparison, Spacemobile was the "easier" path due to extant spectrum rights being effectively immediately available, but they chose to be a "dumber" flying tower architecture.

Do either Spacemobile or Lynk have sufficient defensive IP to impede Starlink? Or is it trade secret sauce that unfortunately could be found independently, particularly the doppler shift compensation?

[Robotbeat]

…
Since the V2 mini sats don’t support handhelds,

Where does this claim come from??

Quit repeating it or provide a solid source. It has not been well-established yet. It seems pretty unlikely given this is such a big part of the whole rationale for V2, and it’s awfully convenient come from someone who is literally invested in a competitor.

Direct comment from Elon at the event.

Mini because no mobile antenna.

Could someone please point me to where Elon supposedly said this?  I don't remember it and he didn't say it when replying to Eric Berger.

But before looking at the transcript in detail, I could've sworn I heard it too.
It's kind of implied.
He says "5x5m cell antena big, meant for Starship. If Starship late, Starlink V2-mini will go on F9".
But it's true at the start he says "primarily for v2 sat" which does not imply "exclusively".

um yeah so we we think like the the service will be primarily a starlink uh v2 uh satellite the starlink v2 is uh the main body of the satellite is about seven meters long uh so call it maybe 40 in longer than an suv and then the uh the antennas that we're talking about here would be supplemental to the ku and ka antennas that we're currently using on sonic 1 and uh to the the laser links so the sonic 2 will satellites uh we tend to have uh k a k u improve ku and um obviously all the laser links and then in addition we would uh fold out the um the sort of cell spectrum antenna that would be also quite large so on the order of uh five or six meters uh on on a side so roughly 25 square meters and then can you get those in the falcon 9 payload fairing uh the starlink v2 is meant for starship um we we might yeah there's another starship like those things um so the the starlink v2 satellites are are very large and uh and too big to fit in a falcon 9. uh but the uh we are we are actually looking at an interim uh solution which is like a sort of starlink v2 mini that would um maybe launch uh if if starlink if the starship is program is delayed uh longer than expected would launch a sort of a small a smaller uh starlink v2 kind of mini that would fit on a falcon 9

Okay, so he DIDN’T say it.

[M.E.T.]

…
Since the V2 mini sats don’t support handhelds,

Where does this claim come from??

Quit repeating it or provide a solid source. It has not been well-established yet. It seems pretty unlikely given this is such a big part of the whole rationale for V2, and it’s awfully convenient come from someone who is literally invested in a competitor.

Direct comment from Elon at the event.

Mini because no mobile antenna.

Could someone please point me to where Elon supposedly said this?  I don't remember it and he didn't say it when replying to Eric Berger.

But before looking at the transcript in detail, I could've sworn I heard it too.
It's kind of implied.
He says "5x5m cell antena big, meant for Starship. If Starship late, Starlink V2-mini will go on F9".
But it's true at the start he says "primarily for v2 sat" which does not imply "exclusively".

um yeah so we we think like the the service will be primarily a starlink uh v2 uh satellite the starlink v2 is uh the main body of the satellite is about seven meters long uh so call it maybe 40 in longer than an suv and then the uh the antennas that we're talking about here would be supplemental to the ku and ka antennas that we're currently using on sonic 1 and uh to the the laser links so the sonic 2 will satellites uh we tend to have uh k a k u improve ku and um obviously all the laser links and then in addition we would uh fold out the um the sort of cell spectrum antenna that would be also quite large so on the order of uh five or six meters uh on on a side so roughly 25 square meters and then can you get those in the falcon 9 payload fairing uh the starlink v2 is meant for starship um we we might yeah there's another starship like those things um so the the starlink v2 satellites are are very large and uh and too big to fit in a falcon 9. uh but the uh we are we are actually looking at an interim uh solution which is like a sort of starlink v2 mini that would um maybe launch uh if if starlink if the starship is program is delayed uh longer than expected would launch a sort of a small a smaller uh starlink v2 kind of mini that would fit on a falcon 9

Okay, so he DIDN’T say it.

His tone was pretty clear that he didn’t really acknowledge the “mini” as a real V2. In fact, he seemed slightly put out by Eric even referring to the mini version, which to Elon seems to be an irrelevant distraction from the real V2.

My sense is that Elon is looking longer term (as always), past the short term challenges, and that the mini version won’t be around for long if he can help it.

[Twark_Main]

…
Since the V2 mini sats don’t support handhelds,

Where does this claim come from??

Quit repeating it or provide a solid source. It has not been well-established yet. It seems pretty unlikely given this is such a big part of the whole rationale for V2, and it’s awfully convenient come from someone who is literally invested in a competitor.

Direct comment from Elon at the event.

Mini because no mobile antenna.

Could someone please point me to where Elon supposedly said this?  I don't remember it and he didn't say it when replying to Eric Berger.

But before looking at the transcript in detail, I could've sworn I heard it too.
It's kind of implied.
He says "5x5m cell antena big, meant for Starship. If Starship late, Starlink V2-mini will go on F9".
But it's true at the start he says "primarily for v2 sat" which does not imply "exclusively".

um yeah so we we think like the the service will be primarily a starlink uh v2 uh satellite the starlink v2 is uh the main body of the satellite is about seven meters long uh so call it maybe 40 in longer than an suv and then the uh the antennas that we're talking about here would be supplemental to the ku and ka antennas that we're currently using on sonic 1 and uh to the the laser links so the sonic 2 will satellites uh we tend to have uh k a k u improve ku and um obviously all the laser links and then in addition we would uh fold out the um the sort of cell spectrum antenna that would be also quite large so on the order of uh five or six meters uh on on a side so roughly 25 square meters and then can you get those in the falcon 9 payload fairing uh the starlink v2 is meant for starship um we we might yeah there's another starship like those things um so the the starlink v2 satellites are are very large and uh and too big to fit in a falcon 9. uh but the uh we are we are actually looking at an interim uh solution which is like a sort of starlink v2 mini that would um maybe launch uh if if starlink if the starship is program is delayed uh longer than expected would launch a sort of a small a smaller uh starlink v2 kind of mini that would fit on a falcon 9

Okay, so he DIDN’T say it.

His tone was pretty clear that he didn’t really acknowledge the “mini” as a real V2. In fact, he seemed slightly put out by Eric even referring to the mini version, which to Elon seems to be an irrelevant distraction from the real V2.

My sense is that Elon is looking longer term (as always), past the short term challenges, and that the mini version won’t be around for long if he can help it.

So in other words... yes, he didn't say it.

Let's not claim it's a "direct comment" (as two separate posters did) if we're actually just reading between the lines. That's how persistent myths and misinformation get started.


Now surely Danderman wouldn't intentionally spread misinformation about a competitor. I'm 100% certain it was an honest mistake. Still, it's not a good look.

[M.E.T.]

Happy if you interpret it that way, or if you don’t. I don’t care whether he said the mini V2 would have an antenna or not.

My point is that the pearl clutching over the mini sats is irrelevant, given that in Elon’s view the mini version will be transitory at most, or not fly at all if Starship development goes as planned.

So its long term impact on the T-Mobile deal will be miniscule.

[kevin-rf]

"in addition we would uh fold out the um the sort of cell spectrum antenna that would be also quite large so on the order of uh five or six meters uh on on a side so roughly 25 square meters and then can you get those in the falcon 9 payload fairing "

Should be interesting to see how that fits inside a Falcon 9 fairing on a mini.

A more interesting question I wish someone had asked is which shell will v2 be targeting first. I don't think you can do 70 degrees from Texas (phase 1  shell 2). I wonder if the first cape Starship launches will thread a needle to 70 degrees... I could see a really large benefit for coverage in Alaska and Northern Canada.   

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

"in addition we would uh fold out the um the sort of cell spectrum antenna that would be also quite large so on the order of uh five or six meters uh on on a side so roughly 25 square meters and then can you get those in the falcon 9 payload fairing "

Should be interesting to see how that fits inside a Falcon 9 fairing on a mini.

A more interesting question I wish someone had asked is which shell will v2 be targeting first. I don't think you can do 70 degrees from Texas (phase 1  shell 2). I wonder if the first cape Starship launches will thread a needle to 70 degrees... I could see a really large benefit for coverage in Alaska and Northern Canada.   

A fold out is the only way to get the antenna size needed. But definitely the mini cannot meet the ability to create the size. One very interesting items about antennas is that not having any radiators/antenna elements in the middle is not that much of a disadvantage for the antenna. The primary controlling feature is the outer set of radiator elements or even reflective elements creating ears without having anything in the middle is quite common. The outer edge shape creates a sharpening of the beam and how far apart the opposing edges are apart creates the beam widths in the different sides of the beam. Such that the gain achievable at should be 26db more than the gain of antennas used on cell towers. Normal cell size from a cell tower is ~32km. I would expect cell size from a specific sat to be 320km or more.

Thus the antenna on the V2 sat would be likely very close to a sqaure of 5mX5m or 25sqm on size. But like I said the outer edge shape and width from its opposite prevails in the gain and beam width forming. The mini V2 would have a difficulty in creating a 5X5 antenna. It still may be possible but its shape would be closer to that of an octagon and may be able to get diameter of 5m. But here you start getting into significant interference of other radiators such as the Ka band ones and with all four sides having ears vs just 2 sides may also cause problems with the laser links and other items too.

If this upgrade to using cell phones as a data access point that could end being a device capable of operating anywhere in the world incuding the poles and oceans. Can turn the communication industry very different than what it is now.

[gongora]

For this use case AST SpaceMobile, Lynk, and SpaceX all rely on partners for access to the frequencies.

[gongora]

I am hearing that Starlink handheld service is only available at 1.9 - 2.0 MHz, which is  T-Mobile spectrum in the US. I am not sure why Starlink chose this frequency (apart from the T-Mobile partnership), since AFAIK, they aren’t licensed for this frequency elsewhere.

It would be an odd design choice if that was a hardware limitation.  Are you sure that's not just the frequencies they're choosing to use in the US?

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

I am hearing that Starlink handheld service is only available at 1.9 - 2.0 MHz, which is  T-Mobile spectrum in the US. I am not sure why Starlink chose this frequency (apart from the T-Mobile partnership), since AFAIK, they aren’t licensed for this frequency elsewhere.

It would be an odd design choice if that was a hardware limitation.  Are you sure that's not just the frequencies they're choosing to use in the US?

First item: isn't the frequencies 1.9 - 2.0 GHz? Which gives T-Mobile 100Mz of bandwidth. Else Mhz would give T-Mobile 100KHz of bandwidth.

In the initial 12,400 sat constellation to be fully operational on or before Nov 2027 (the FCC licensing date). Would give T-Mobile excellent coverage. For the more advanced constellation of 30,000 sats which would be fully operational on or before 2030. Could have total of 3 cell phone providers each have 10,000 dedicated sats each. which would result in at least 3 cell phone providers from sat just by Starlink plus the other sat constellations that also implement cell services. Such that by 2030 you could have more than a dozen cell phone providers operating from orbit.

Additionally what SpaceX and Starlink design may be going for is to be like a cell phone tower operator that receives a fixed fee for each operational tower. As more "towers" (sats) are added the more revenue that SpaceX would get and the more advantage that T-Mobile would have in capabilities to have a solid connection space that covers all of US and territories. Which should bring in to T-Mobile more subscribers since they can cover areas and customers that no one else can.