Starlink direct to cell (was SpaceX & T-mobile event 25 Aug 2022)

[raptorx2]

First look at the new V3 D2D Text, Voice, Data satellites?  Compliments direct.starlink.com

Those array deployment actuators sure look very similar to those on Group 6-1, 6-2 from last year.

As far as I can tell, those are simply V2 minis with the F9-3 bus, which will be launched instead of the V2 minis with the F9-2 bus.  I haven't seen any mention of V3 satellites.

Elon mentioned V3 satellites in an inteview the other day.  No clarification if he was referring to a Mini varient.

[raptorx2]

Their latest MNO commerical agreement Entel from Chile claims Text December 2024.

But, I suspect that this is largely Regulatory.

If other territories SpaceX will likely also need to undertake the Regulatory Process similar to the FCC.

The SpaceX D2D satellites operate as a "German Sponsored/Licensed Payloads".  So each country may require direct host country licensing vs. "Market Entry". Therefore, the SpaceX D2D payloads operate as a "Hosted Payload".  If you remember, SpaceX's first FCC application filed Dec. 6, 2022 for D2D to the FCC was via "Market Entry" of the German licensed payload. SATPPL2022120600170. When the FCC Draft NPRM required a "lease" of the spectrum from TMobile, then SpaceX had to pivot to a Direct License with the FCC.  So each satellite and corresponding D2D hardware may have 50 or 60 licensed "hosted payloads" each. So for instance, Group 6-1 (Feb 2023) and 6-2 April 2023) satellites had very similar array deployment hardware (see v2d2d.jpg) as the newly photographed D2D payloads (see d2d.jpg). (Hint, the new D2D satellites employ the new space lazers).  So in the case of the FCC, it will be just one of many "Hosted Payload Licensees".  This is how it would be possible for the current V2.0 Mini's to have launched with some form of basic "text messaging D2D capability" included without FCC approval.  Simply because of the "Hosted Payload Regime" SpaceX only needed FCC approval for US Hosted Payload/testing/operation. They would not need FCC authority to launch unless to exceeded previous  DAS computations.  In other regulatory areas, "Market Access of the German Payload" may be acceptable. There is no regulatory difference between providing text vs. text, voice, data.  So it is obvious that the 1 year delta in availability of the different services is on-orbit hardware, vs regulatory.

BTW. the 10 or so remaining 6-1 (D2D) launched satellites are all leveled off at around 360km. 2 more recently deorbited while the same design 6-2's have 20 operational at or near the correct altitude.

Just as a reminder.  SpaceX Germany was granted Direct to Cell payload authority in Dec. 2022.
(Assignment of Orbit and
Frequency Usage Rights, No. 023-2022/BNetzA (223) (issued Dec. 6, 2022).)

SpaceX immediately filed a Petition with the FCC for "Market Entry" of this foreign-licensed Direct to Cell payload. SAT-PPL-20221206-00170

[RedLineTrain]

First look at the new V3 D2D Text, Voice, Data satellites?  Compliments direct.starlink.com

Those array deployment actuators sure look very similar to those on Group 6-1, 6-2 from last year.

As far as I can tell, those are simply V2 minis with the F9-3 bus, which will be launched instead of the V2 minis with the F9-2 bus.  I haven't seen any mention of V3 satellites.

Elon mentioned V3 satellites in an inteview the other day.  No clarification if he was referring to a Mini varient.

Which interview?  Was it the Ark interview?

[raptorx2]

First look at the new V3 D2D Text, Voice, Data satellites?  Compliments direct.starlink.com

Those array deployment actuators sure look very similar to those on Group 6-1, 6-2 from last year.

As far as I can tell, those are simply V2 minis with the F9-3 bus, which will be launched instead of the V2 minis with the F9-2 bus.  I haven't seen any mention of V3 satellites.

Elon mentioned V3 satellites in an inteview the other day.  No clarification if he was referring to a Mini varient.

Which interview?  Was it the Ark interview?

"Elon Musk Projects Starship to Deploy 'V3' Starlink Satellites Next Year"
https://www.pcmag.com/news/elon-musk-projects-starship-to-deploy-v3-starlink-satellites-next-year

[raptorx2]

To use Starlink on your cell phone, will you need a portable user terminal or will it connect directly to satellites in orbit?

It is direct to to your smartphone that is the most recently available in the market. Not older smartphones.

Just a reminder this Starlink direct to smartphone service only have voice and text initially.

In the US, TMUS using the G Block, only phones produced with support for G-Block will work (+2014ish)

SpaceX has filed experimental authority to test 3G in the lab with Starlink.

3G support opens support to a cornucopia of $30 Chinese 3G smartphones to support the deployment of basic connectivity (Text) in developing countries.

[RedLineTrain]

First look at the new V3 D2D Text, Voice, Data satellites?  Compliments direct.starlink.com

Those array deployment actuators sure look very similar to those on Group 6-1, 6-2 from last year.

As far as I can tell, those are simply V2 minis with the F9-3 bus, which will be launched instead of the V2 minis with the F9-2 bus.  I haven't seen any mention of V3 satellites.

Elon mentioned V3 satellites in an inteview the other day.  No clarification if he was referring to a Mini varient.

Which interview?  Was it the Ark interview?

"Elon Musk Projects Starship to Deploy 'V3' Starlink Satellites Next Year"
https://www.pcmag.com/news/elon-musk-projects-starship-to-deploy-v3-starlink-satellites-next-year

I see.  Thank you.  That was the IAC keynote/interview about Starship.  It is unclear, but my assumption is that "V3" will be a Starship version of the bus that will launch in the latter part of 2024.  SpaceX has described the Starship-2 bus as a 2-ton satellite, but it seems likely that this was a stand-in for the actual number and that the company will file with the FCC sometime next year a Starship-3 bus.

Unknown how much of the added capability will be devoted to D2D.

[raptorx2]

If you remember, V2 was also a Starship only varient...

At the TMUS D2D Event. Musk stated that Direct 2 Cell required V2.0 Starship and that second generation satellites will be able to connect to cell phones.


Also at this event.  Musk stated that.. "We have it working in the lab".
Many pundits claimed that SpaceX had sort of haphazardly thrown together this event to upstage the Apple SOS announcement. If they have it working in the lab, then that is not the case.

Then, when questioned later.  Musk hinted, in the context of Direct 2 Device at a "possible V2 Mini" under consideration in case Starship was delayed.


He also stated that the D2D antenna would "fold-out" on the side.
On the original 6-1 (Feb 2023), 6-2 (April 2023) V2.0 minis.  A hinge assembly and actuator were clearly visible from the supplied photos.

[raptorx2]

https://twitter.com/FREESPEECH1017/status/1742744015341334934

[JayWee]

Are these sats direct-to-cell only or they have both antennas?

[russianhalo117]

Are these sats direct-to-cell only or they have both antennas?

The six Group T1 sats are Stock Starlink V2 Minis with unspecified hardware modifications and SDR (Software Defined Radio) telecommunications systems modifications. If the operational greenlight is given the T-Mobile D2D subconstellation, Gen1 as authorised will consist of 30 planes of 840 Starlink D2D V2 Mini satellites interspersed within the main Gen2 megaconstellation.

[catdlr]

https://twitter.com/FREESPEECH1017/status/1742744015341334934

Starting from the outer shoulder of these two engineers, I counted 29 rows of antenna array elements on that panel and marked them off.  Then I counted 29 rows of the stacked pictured counted the same number of rows and marked it off.  This way you can compare relative sizes.

[scaesare]

https://twitter.com/FREESPEECH1017/status/1742744015341334934

Starting from the outer shoulder of these two engineers, I counted 29 rows of solar cells and marked them off.  Then I counted 29 rows of the stacked pictured counted the same number of rows and marked it off.  This way you can compare relative sizes.

Aren't those antenna array elements, not solar cells?

[seb21051]

Just wondering what the approximate dimensions are for that stack of starlinks. It obviously fits inside the 17' Dia x 43' Height fairing set. So calculating the largest square in a circle, 17 ft Dia gives a square roughly 12 ft on a side. 21 birds in a length of 43', minus the ogive and given a mounting pedestal, I estimate space available to be 25-30', so say they are about 1 ft thick.

And I did read somewhere that the width and depth of an individual starlink V2 mini packed in its launch frame is on the order of 12' x 12'. And obviously the weight exceeds 800kg, especially for the DTC.

Now, the V2 full size is estimated to weight around 1,300kg, and to fit into the SS payload bay, which is 9m in Dia. Any estimates on the Width, Depth and Height of those birds, packed in their launch frames?

Also, once SS is delivering V2/3 DTC full size sats, at a weight of up to 1,500kg each, it should be able to launch 100 at a time if it is capable of a nominal 150 tonne payload.

Finally, 30,000 sats at 100 per launch gives one about 300 launches, by 2030. Piece of cake. At a projected $2 mil per launch, would cost SX $600 mil. Even if the per launch cost was $10 mil, it works out to $3 bil.

Wow. Kuiper, and all the competition are in trouble. But then we knew that.

Edit:- Some more questions:

1. At what frequency (and band) does the starlink customer antenna/transciever communicate to the sat? Ka/Ku? And where does V band fit in. And at what speed/freq does the laser linking between sats occur? And on what band/freq does the sat talk down to the groundstation?

Nevermind. I found all I was wondering about here, except the Laserlink speeds:

https://www.americantv.com/what-frequency-does-starlink-use.php

[catdlr]

https://twitter.com/FREESPEECH1017/status/1742744015341334934

Starting from the outer shoulder of these two engineers, I counted 29 rows of solar cells and marked them off.  Then I counted 29 rows of the stacked pictured counted the same number of rows and marked it off.  This way you can compare relative sizes.

Aren't those antenna array elements, not solar cells?

Sorry, yes, you are correct and I correct my statement. Thanks,

[RedLineTrain]

And I did read somewhere that the width and depth of an individual starlink V2 mini packed in its launch frame is on the order of 12' x 12'. And obviously the weight exceeds 800kg, especially for the DTC.

Now, the V2 full size is estimated to weight around 1,300kg, and to fit into the SS payload bay, which is 9m in Dia. Any estimates on the Width, Depth and Height of those birds, packed in their launch frames?

Also, once SS is delivering V2/3 DTC full size sats, at a weight of up to 1,500kg each, it should be able to launch 100 at a time if it is capable of a nominal 150 tonne payload.

I don't know the basis for the numbers that you have, but the F9-3 configuration of Starlink v2 mini sat with DTC is currently as much as 970 kg and the Starship-2 full sat with DTC is currently as much as 2,000 kg.

1. At what frequency (and band) does the starlink customer antenna/transciever communicate to the sat? Ka/Ku? And where does V band fit in. And at what speed/freq does the laser linking between sats occur? And on what band/freq does the sat talk down to the groundstation?

Starlink terminals communicate with the sat in Ku-band currently.  Ka-band, V-band, and E-band currently are for satellite backhaul and, in the case of Ka-band, community gateways.

I believe the Ka-band and V-band frequencies are also licensed for communication from some sats to the user, but no terminal equipment has been licensed on these frequencies.  Laser links are at least 100 Gbps apiece.

[seb21051]

I don't know the basis for the numbers that you have, but the F9-3 configuration of Starlink v2 mini sat with DTC is currently as much as 970 kg and the Starship-2 full sat with DTC is currently as much as 2,000 kg."

Fascinating!

From the original V1 sats weight of about 300kg to 2 tonnes? That is a huge increase. What do you expect the V2/3 Full to be capable of that the V2 mini is not?

[DanClemmensen]

I don't know the basis for the numbers that you have, but the F9-3 configuration of Starlink v2 mini sat with DTC is currently as much as 970 kg and the Starship-2 full sat with DTC is currently as much as 2,000 kg.

Fascinating!

From the original V1 sats weight of about 300kg to 2 tonnes? That is a huge increase. What do you expect the V2/3 Full to be capable of that the V2 mini is not?

THEORY:
More mass gets you more power (bigger solar panels and bigger battery). More power converts pretty much directly into more bandwidth. That's because no matter what tricks you play (and there are many) you need a certain energy per bit., or E_b/N₀. A bigger satellite also supports bigger antennas, and that allows smaller spots and therefore higher bandwidth reuse. The batteries are needed because an LEO comsat has variable power demand over the course of its orbit (cities versus ocean, etc.) and variable power supply (day versus night). I find it easy to believe that the bigger satellite can handle ten times the bandwidth of the smaller satellite.

[seb21051]

I find it easy to believe that the bigger satellite can handle ten times the bandwidth of the smaller satellite.

So essentially more users at acceptable bandwidth and latency per sat? And how many users do they pick up with the DTC option? And what do they charge them for the DTC service?

I've been wondering what 40,000+ birds would mean in terms of max number of users with satisfactory BW and latency. Lets say 800 user sessions per sat (29 x 29 antennae per sat ~ 840 users?). That might mean potential for about 32 million satisfied customers by 2030? Potential, maybe, but I believe Starlink only picked up about 300,000 new users in 2023. So maybe 3 million total users by 2030. Not perhaps what SX was hoping for, but still profitable?

[DanClemmensen]

I find it easy to believe that the bigger satellite can handle ten times the bandwidth of the smaller satellite.

So essentially more users at acceptable bandwidth and latency per sat? And how many users do they pick up with the DTC option? And what do they charge them for the DTC service?

I've been wondering what 40,000+ birds would mean in terms of max number of users with satisfactory BW and latency. Lets say 800 user sessions per sat (29 x 29 antennae per sat ~ 840 users?). That might mean potential for about 32 million satisfied customers by 2030? Potential, maybe, but I believe Starlink only picked up about 300,000 new users in 2023. So maybe 3 million total users by 2030. Not perhaps what SX was hoping for, but still profitable?

Sorry, no. Those are all elements of a single phased array antenna. You don't have an antenna per user.  That single phased array antenna can synthesize multiple beams. In each beam, the signal is shared by frequency and time multiplexing. By analogy, look at a cell tower. Each antenna on a cell tower supports hundreds or thousands of users simultaneously. The precise details will differ depending on a whole lot of stuff.

[cpushack]

That might mean potential for about 32 million satisfied customers by 2030? Potential, maybe, but I believe Starlink only picked up about 300,000 new users in 2023. So maybe 3 million total users by 2030. Not perhaps what SX was hoping for, but still profitable?

SpaceX added a lot more then 300k in 2023
They hit 1 million Dec 2022 and 2.2 Million Dec 2023

That's roughly 1.2 million in a year