What is the business case for TMobile and other potential international carriers to forgo let's say as a wild guess, 2.5Mhz (2Mhz plus guard bands) of their extremely valuable and in many cases, extremely expensive L/S Band spectrum to dedicate to this endeavor? Especially for FREE on some plans? What is the business case for SpaceX to undergo development and production costs, let alone potential regulatory headaches to add an additional L/S band payload to V2.0? I mean there has to be a business case here. This whole satellite connectivity for consumer handsets isn't much of a business plan. The money here is in Satellite IoT, and TMobile and Starlink understand this. Satellite IoT is expected to grow from a 775MM market in 2021 to a 6.7 Billion dollar market by 2031. There are a number of Satellite IoT operators like Globalstar, Irdium, Orbcomm, and Swarm. All use "dedicated spectrum", satellites, and custom user terminals for either Simplex or Duplex services. This "dedicated spectrum" creates an environment of expensive development and low quantities on a manufacturing basis. So the UT's tend to be "moderately expensive" $100's of $ due to lack of Economics of Scale in the development of components. Likewise, Service Plans tend to be a bit elevated for the tiny amount of data being transmitted/processed. Other issues are integration issues of bringing data from the Satellite IoT specific network into the corporation's other Terrestrial IoT networks. Some operators like Iridium are providing gateways via AWS. So now you say you can move this Satellite IoT into global CMRS spectrum. The Economics of Scale of the Satellite IoT User Terminal just explodes. Tiny parts/antennas/GPS/modems developed by hundreds/thousands of companies are now available to manufacture CMRS Satellite IoT devices that will be frequency agile to cover several CMRS bands for tens of dollars.. Not hundreds of dollars. In addition, the pricing plans would likely be "Highly Disruptive" to these traditional Satellite IoT providers. This is the 800lb Gorilla in the room. Companies like Iridium and Globalstar have largely dismissed these "Mega-Constellations" as any threat of competition to their futures. They have claimed in some cases that constellations like Starlink and OneWeb are actually "complementary" to their business models. Well, with this move, these Satellite IoT companies have surely modified their "viewpoints", but perhaps not publically. Especially those Simplex-centric Satellite IoT companies. After all, you go from needing specific globally harmonized Satellite spectrum to compete in this market to a point that most CMRS Spectrum can now be used as Simplex Satellite IoT. This business model will propel other Telecom Operators from around the globe to integrate this Satellite IoT featrure into their own spectrum allowing these Satellite IoT devices to roam from country to country, yet still deliver the data on a unified network that is already in place. The really expensive part of the equation is already in place. The global 4G/5G Terrestrial Core Networks. Heck, while they are at it. Starlink could add 1090Mhz ADSB receiver and give companies like Aireon a run for their money.
One constellation to rule them all...
Quote from: Asteroza on 09/02/2022 02:00 amOne constellation to rule them all...Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the end game for Starlink, don't forget to add some Earth observation capability as well.
I'm most familiar with Iridium and it's markets vs the other IoT satellite companies, but this directly competes with every technical niche and market that Iridium covers. Bandwidth, signal penetration, coverage, user side antenna size and power consumption,...It seems a catastrophic threat to Iridium's entire business model.
Quote from: Danderman on 08/30/2022 02:12 amQuote from: virtuallynathan on 08/29/2022 07:17 pmQuote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 08/29/2022 06:36 pmQuote from: gongora on 08/29/2022 04:30 pmQuote from: Danderman on 08/29/2022 04:11 amI am hearing that Starlink handheld service is only available at 1.9 - 2.0 MHz, which is T-Mobile spectrum in the US. I am not sure why Starlink chose this frequency (apart from the T-Mobile partnership), since AFAIK, they aren’t licensed for this frequency elsewhere. It would be an odd design choice if that was a hardware limitation. Are you sure that's not just the frequencies they're choosing to use in the US?First item: isn't the frequencies 1.9 - 2.0 GHz? Which gives T-Mobile 100Mz of bandwidth. Else Mhz would give T-Mobile 100KHz of bandwidth.In the initial 12,400 sat constellation to be fully operational on or before Nov 2027 (the FCC licensing date). Would give T-Mobile excellent coverage. For the more advanced constellation of 30,000 sats which would be fully operational on or before 2030. Could have total of 3 cell phone providers each have 10,000 dedicated sats each. which would result in at least 3 cell phone providers from sat just by Starlink plus the other sat constellations that also implement cell services. Such that by 2030 you could have more than a dozen cell phone providers operating from orbit. Additionally what SpaceX and Starlink design may be going for is to be like a cell phone tower operator that receives a fixed fee for each operational tower. As more "towers" (sats) are added the more revenue that SpaceX would get and the more advantage that T-Mobile would have in capabilities to have a solid connection space that covers all of US and territories. Which should bring in to T-Mobile more subscribers since they can cover areas and customers that no one else can.I highly doubt T-Mobile would let SpaceX use 100Mhz of specturm... probably 5Mhz, and maybe they can use 2-3x 1.4Mhz LTE channels -- 1.4Mhz gets you 3Mbps. SpaceX would only use the T-Mobile spectrum where there are no cell towers. Otherwise T-Mobile can use its spectrum to serve terrestrial customers.That's possible, but I imagine the cell size is fairly large (>140 sq mi), so managing that would be tricky. Also:"I was able to confirm that T-Mobile will use the G block of the PCS band for this new Starlink service. (1910–1915 MHz for uplink and 1990–1995 MHz for downlink.)"
Quote from: virtuallynathan on 08/29/2022 07:17 pmQuote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 08/29/2022 06:36 pmQuote from: gongora on 08/29/2022 04:30 pmQuote from: Danderman on 08/29/2022 04:11 amI am hearing that Starlink handheld service is only available at 1.9 - 2.0 MHz, which is T-Mobile spectrum in the US. I am not sure why Starlink chose this frequency (apart from the T-Mobile partnership), since AFAIK, they aren’t licensed for this frequency elsewhere. It would be an odd design choice if that was a hardware limitation. Are you sure that's not just the frequencies they're choosing to use in the US?First item: isn't the frequencies 1.9 - 2.0 GHz? Which gives T-Mobile 100Mz of bandwidth. Else Mhz would give T-Mobile 100KHz of bandwidth.In the initial 12,400 sat constellation to be fully operational on or before Nov 2027 (the FCC licensing date). Would give T-Mobile excellent coverage. For the more advanced constellation of 30,000 sats which would be fully operational on or before 2030. Could have total of 3 cell phone providers each have 10,000 dedicated sats each. which would result in at least 3 cell phone providers from sat just by Starlink plus the other sat constellations that also implement cell services. Such that by 2030 you could have more than a dozen cell phone providers operating from orbit. Additionally what SpaceX and Starlink design may be going for is to be like a cell phone tower operator that receives a fixed fee for each operational tower. As more "towers" (sats) are added the more revenue that SpaceX would get and the more advantage that T-Mobile would have in capabilities to have a solid connection space that covers all of US and territories. Which should bring in to T-Mobile more subscribers since they can cover areas and customers that no one else can.I highly doubt T-Mobile would let SpaceX use 100Mhz of specturm... probably 5Mhz, and maybe they can use 2-3x 1.4Mhz LTE channels -- 1.4Mhz gets you 3Mbps. SpaceX would only use the T-Mobile spectrum where there are no cell towers. Otherwise T-Mobile can use its spectrum to serve terrestrial customers.
Quote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 08/29/2022 06:36 pmQuote from: gongora on 08/29/2022 04:30 pmQuote from: Danderman on 08/29/2022 04:11 amI am hearing that Starlink handheld service is only available at 1.9 - 2.0 MHz, which is T-Mobile spectrum in the US. I am not sure why Starlink chose this frequency (apart from the T-Mobile partnership), since AFAIK, they aren’t licensed for this frequency elsewhere. It would be an odd design choice if that was a hardware limitation. Are you sure that's not just the frequencies they're choosing to use in the US?First item: isn't the frequencies 1.9 - 2.0 GHz? Which gives T-Mobile 100Mz of bandwidth. Else Mhz would give T-Mobile 100KHz of bandwidth.In the initial 12,400 sat constellation to be fully operational on or before Nov 2027 (the FCC licensing date). Would give T-Mobile excellent coverage. For the more advanced constellation of 30,000 sats which would be fully operational on or before 2030. Could have total of 3 cell phone providers each have 10,000 dedicated sats each. which would result in at least 3 cell phone providers from sat just by Starlink plus the other sat constellations that also implement cell services. Such that by 2030 you could have more than a dozen cell phone providers operating from orbit. Additionally what SpaceX and Starlink design may be going for is to be like a cell phone tower operator that receives a fixed fee for each operational tower. As more "towers" (sats) are added the more revenue that SpaceX would get and the more advantage that T-Mobile would have in capabilities to have a solid connection space that covers all of US and territories. Which should bring in to T-Mobile more subscribers since they can cover areas and customers that no one else can.I highly doubt T-Mobile would let SpaceX use 100Mhz of specturm... probably 5Mhz, and maybe they can use 2-3x 1.4Mhz LTE channels -- 1.4Mhz gets you 3Mbps.
Quote from: gongora on 08/29/2022 04:30 pmQuote from: Danderman on 08/29/2022 04:11 amI am hearing that Starlink handheld service is only available at 1.9 - 2.0 MHz, which is T-Mobile spectrum in the US. I am not sure why Starlink chose this frequency (apart from the T-Mobile partnership), since AFAIK, they aren’t licensed for this frequency elsewhere. It would be an odd design choice if that was a hardware limitation. Are you sure that's not just the frequencies they're choosing to use in the US?First item: isn't the frequencies 1.9 - 2.0 GHz? Which gives T-Mobile 100Mz of bandwidth. Else Mhz would give T-Mobile 100KHz of bandwidth.In the initial 12,400 sat constellation to be fully operational on or before Nov 2027 (the FCC licensing date). Would give T-Mobile excellent coverage. For the more advanced constellation of 30,000 sats which would be fully operational on or before 2030. Could have total of 3 cell phone providers each have 10,000 dedicated sats each. which would result in at least 3 cell phone providers from sat just by Starlink plus the other sat constellations that also implement cell services. Such that by 2030 you could have more than a dozen cell phone providers operating from orbit. Additionally what SpaceX and Starlink design may be going for is to be like a cell phone tower operator that receives a fixed fee for each operational tower. As more "towers" (sats) are added the more revenue that SpaceX would get and the more advantage that T-Mobile would have in capabilities to have a solid connection space that covers all of US and territories. Which should bring in to T-Mobile more subscribers since they can cover areas and customers that no one else can.
Quote from: Danderman on 08/29/2022 04:11 amI am hearing that Starlink handheld service is only available at 1.9 - 2.0 MHz, which is T-Mobile spectrum in the US. I am not sure why Starlink chose this frequency (apart from the T-Mobile partnership), since AFAIK, they aren’t licensed for this frequency elsewhere. It would be an odd design choice if that was a hardware limitation. Are you sure that's not just the frequencies they're choosing to use in the US?
I am hearing that Starlink handheld service is only available at 1.9 - 2.0 MHz, which is T-Mobile spectrum in the US. I am not sure why Starlink chose this frequency (apart from the T-Mobile partnership), since AFAIK, they aren’t licensed for this frequency elsewhere.
Quote from: gongora on 08/31/2022 08:49 pmQuote from: TheRadicalModerate on 08/31/2022 07:46 pmQuote from: gongora on 08/29/2022 09:32 pmThe first gen constellation is ~4k sats, not ~12k.The first license is 4K but the first generation is the first two licenses, which do add up to 12K.There hasn't been any recent indication that the V-band sats will actually happen. The gen 1 constellation is the 4k Ku/Ka-band sats.Is there any reason why the v2 birds can't have a version that supports V-band? That license is approved and the clock is ticking on it. The Gen2 license isn't. (Again, "v2" vs. "Gen2" is horribly confusing. They might mean the same thing, or they might not.)
Quote from: TheRadicalModerate on 08/31/2022 07:46 pmQuote from: gongora on 08/29/2022 09:32 pmThe first gen constellation is ~4k sats, not ~12k.The first license is 4K but the first generation is the first two licenses, which do add up to 12K.There hasn't been any recent indication that the V-band sats will actually happen. The gen 1 constellation is the 4k Ku/Ka-band sats.
Quote from: gongora on 08/29/2022 09:32 pmThe first gen constellation is ~4k sats, not ~12k.The first license is 4K but the first generation is the first two licenses, which do add up to 12K.
The first gen constellation is ~4k sats, not ~12k.
You can talk about 20+ T Mobile partners in the world, but in each country it is a separate company and it must obtain permission for frequency from the national regulator.
Wild to think about user experiences for phones that can connect to satellites. When we launched G1 in '08 it was a stretch to get 3G + Wifi working. Now we're designing for satellites. Cool! Excited to support our partners in enabling all of this in the next version of Android!
The reason is. and SpaceX himself wrote about it in the FСС. These frequencies are simply not suitable for communication. see picture
Quote from: vsatman on 09/02/2022 07:48 pmThe reason is. and SpaceX himself wrote about it in the F. These frequencies are simply not suitable for communication. see pictureBingo, this is 2G spectrum. This can't be used for 5G or even 4.5G service.This is spectrum that is used strictly as a last resort service for customers that are too far for even 4G service.Keyword is PCS, aka 2G.Cellphone frequencies aren't lego pieces that can be repurposed willy nilly. Hence the highly speculative if the FCC will allow Starlink to do mobile service from satellites at all.
The reason is. and SpaceX himself wrote about it in the F. These frequencies are simply not suitable for communication. see picture
Quote from: vsatman on 09/02/2022 07:48 pmThe reason is. and SpaceX himself wrote about it in the FСС. These frequencies are simply not suitable for communication. see pictureBingo, this is 2G spectrum. This can't be used for 5G or even 4.5G service.
Another strategic impact would be to significantly undermine the business case for AST Spacemobile type services before it even gets off the ground.Think about it for a moment.These rural areas are sparsely populated, and most visitors would be going there once or twice a year on vacation. For home internet at your remote cabin or ranch and for long term mobile internet in e.g. an RV - Starlink will be the service of choice for people in these areas.That leaves only the need to have emergency contact capability in dead zone areas while travelling / hiking etc. Which the Starlink-T-mobile alliance will provide for free.So with those two needs covered, who will still need a costly higher bandwidth phone capability from AST for the limited number of times you need to stream a video call while in a dead zone?In my view, once the emergency contact need is covered, most of the AST Spacemobile business case disappears.
What is the business case...
SpaceX ramps hiring for T-Mobile Starlink cell service partnershipBy Johnna Crider Posted on September 10, 2022SpaceX is ramping hiring efforts for its T-Mobile Starlink cell service partnership. Last month, SpaceX and T-Mobile announced their new partnership to end mobile dead zones. According to a post from SpaceX’s senior director of satellite engineering, there are three new positions that SpaceX is currently hiring for.
Sara Spangelo1dThrilled to be announcing SpaceX & T-Mobile's partnership bringing direct to cell phone connectivity to the entire US & globe. https://lnkd.in/eJtYNqyhYou can learn more about the program here:www.spacex.comhttps://lnkd.in/ggx6WRpyPlease check out these exciting roles on our team!Partnerships Manager (Direct to Cell)https://lnkd.in/g3kadbH2Communications Integration Engineer (Direct to Cell)https://lnkd.in/gmDy2r-wSr. Software Engineer (Direct to Cell)https://lnkd.in/gSyaspVK
There's a few more too:- Principal Software Engineer (Direct To Cell)- Sr. Software Engineer (Direct To Cell)- Software Engineer (Direct To Cell) - Communications Integration Engineer (Direct to Cell)- Partnerships Manager (Direct to Cell)- Sr. Software Engineer, Data Plane (Direct To Cell)- Sr. Software Engineer, 4G/5G Protocols (Direct To Cell)- Sr. Software Engineer, 4G/5G MAC/PHY (Direct To Cell)
Quote from: virtuallynathan on 09/11/2022 03:04 pmThere's a few more too:- Principal Software Engineer (Direct To Cell)- Sr. Software Engineer (Direct To Cell)- Software Engineer (Direct To Cell) - Communications Integration Engineer (Direct to Cell)- Partnerships Manager (Direct to Cell)- Sr. Software Engineer, Data Plane (Direct To Cell)- Sr. Software Engineer, 4G/5G Protocols (Direct To Cell)- Sr. Software Engineer, 4G/5G MAC/PHY (Direct To Cell)That smells a lot like no 3G support. Unclear on 4G VoLTE though.
