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#880
by
clongton
on 15 Jul, 2023 15:14
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..."no news."
No news does mean something is going on besides "We identified the problem and have remediation."
The only thing "no news" means is "no news". Everything else is nothing more than someone's opinion. Otherwise it would be "news".
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#881
by
russianhalo117
on 15 Jul, 2023 22:31
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We’re now 6 weeks on from the announcement of the latest Starliner issues & delay and still no schedule update. So I’m assuming no chance now of flying this year.
I thought I saw 2 or 3 weeks ago, in an unrelated NASA press briefing, a remark about an update in a few weeks? Can’t find it now.
Complete the following sentence:
"No news is ______________________"
Nothing since last time has been approved for public release.
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#882
by
Steven Pietrobon
on 16 Jul, 2023 05:24
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Complete the following sentence:
"No news is ______________________"
When I don't hear anything from my customer after a delivery, that is definitely "good news" is that means they are not having any problems. :-)
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#883
by
meekGee
on 16 Jul, 2023 06:37
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Complete the following sentence:
"No news is ______________________"
When I don't hear anything from my customer after a delivery, that is definitely "good news" is that means they are not having any problems. :-)
When I don't hear anything from a Vendor after I place an order...
Anyway, this is so meta.
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#884
by
xyv
on 16 Jul, 2023 21:40
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Complete the following sentence:
"No news is ______________________"
When I don't hear anything from my customer after a delivery, that is definitely "good news" is that means they are not having any problems. :-)
Or they haven't turned it on. Happens in my business when something gets bought to evaluate but when it finally gets delivered there is no 'project/charge number' to actually evaluate it. Sometimes no news is..."no news".
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#885
by
SoftwareDude
on 16 Jul, 2023 23:21
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No news means there is something keeping Boeing and NASA from telling us the plan. Some wild. guesses: Did Boeing/NASA find other problems with Starliner? Is Boeing giving up on Starliner? Does six extra Atlas V rockets make ULA more valuable or easier to sell? Remember Boeing has an interest in that. Is there some disagreement between Boeing and NASA about safety that is unresolved?
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#886
by
Zed_Noir
on 17 Jul, 2023 00:46
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No news means there is something keeping Boeing and NASA from telling us the plan. Some wild. guesses: Did Boeing/NASA find other problems with Starliner? Is Boeing giving up on Starliner? Does six extra Atlas V rockets make ULA more valuable or easier to sell? Remember Boeing has an interest in that. Is there some disagreement between Boeing and NASA about safety that is unresolved?
On another thread I suggested that Boeing move all their remaining Starliner launches to the Falcon 9 from the Atlas V and sell the Atlas V to other customers (eg. ULA). It might improve the Boeing bottom line from a really huge loss to a small loss.
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#887
by
king1999
on 17 Jul, 2023 01:11
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That means another costly year of delay to certify the Falcon 9 emergency signal for the Starliner.
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#888
by
DanClemmensen
on 17 Jul, 2023 01:31
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That means another costly year of delay to certify the Falcon 9 emergency signal for the Starliner.
Maybe not. NASA did not require an inflight abort test for Starliner on Atlas even though Atlas's abort signal was new. F9 already has a tested and certified abort signal. I would speculate that NASA could choose to certify Starliner-on-F9 fairly quickly.
But why? Just stay on Atlas. Those seven Atlas Vs are not competitive, but they (or the parts to build them) are already in inventory at ULA (I think), What would ULA do with them? If ULA takes a loss on them, the loss will flow upward to the corporate parents, 50% to Boeing. The remaining 19 Atlas V are allocated as 7 to Starliner, 9 to Kuiper, and three others (Viasat-3 EMEA, USSF-51, NROL-107). There are no further customers for Atlas.
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#889
by
Zed_Noir
on 17 Jul, 2023 03:00
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<snip>
But why? Just stay on Atlas. Those seven Atlas Vs are not competitive, but they (or the parts to build them) are already in inventory at ULA (I think), What would ULA do with them? If ULA takes a loss on them, the loss will flow upward to the corporate parents, 50% to Boeing. The remaining 19 Atlas V are allocated as 7 to Starliner, 9 to Kuiper, and three others (Viasat-3 EMEA, USSF-51, NROL-107). There are no further customers for Atlas.
Amazon will gladly take the Atlas Vs from the Starliner program. Especially if they try to avoid calling on the folks at Hawthorne to makeup for the late service introduction of the Vulcan-Centaur and New Glenn. For the same reasoning ULA could probably ask for and get a premium price from Amazon.
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#890
by
Vahe231991
on 17 Jul, 2023 03:55
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<snip>
But why? Just stay on Atlas. Those seven Atlas Vs are not competitive, but they (or the parts to build them) are already in inventory at ULA (I think), What would ULA do with them? If ULA takes a loss on them, the loss will flow upward to the corporate parents, 50% to Boeing. The remaining 19 Atlas V are allocated as 7 to Starliner, 9 to Kuiper, and three others (Viasat-3 EMEA, USSF-51, NROL-107). There are no further customers for Atlas.
Amazon will gladly take the Atlas Vs from the Starliner program. Especially if they try to avoid calling on the folks at Hawthorne to makeup for the late service introduction of the Vulcan-Centaur and New Glenn. For the same reasoning ULA could probably ask for and get a premium price from Amazon.
No, the Atlas Vs allocated to Kuiper will remain assigned to the Kuiper satellite system regardless of the extra delay for the Starliner-1 flight.
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#891
by
Zed_Noir
on 17 Jul, 2023 05:33
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<snip>
But why? Just stay on Atlas. Those seven Atlas Vs are not competitive, but they (or the parts to build them) are already in inventory at ULA (I think), What would ULA do with them? If ULA takes a loss on them, the loss will flow upward to the corporate parents, 50% to Boeing. The remaining 19 Atlas V are allocated as 7 to Starliner, 9 to Kuiper, and three others (Viasat-3 EMEA, USSF-51, NROL-107). There are no further customers for Atlas.
Amazon will gladly take the Atlas Vs from the Starliner program. Especially if they try to avoid calling on the folks at Hawthorne to makeup for the late service introduction of the Vulcan-Centaur and New Glenn. For the same reasoning ULA could probably ask for and get a premium price from Amazon.
No, the Atlas Vs allocated to Kuiper will remain assigned to the Kuiper satellite system regardless of the extra delay for the Starliner-1 flight.
Huh! Where did I posted anything about the Atlas Vs already allocated to the Kuiper Project. My post was about adding the Atlas Vs from the Starliner program to the Kuiper Project for likely a
premium price.
Please read what you are posting about.
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#892
by
AndrewM
on 17 Jul, 2023 23:21
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That means another costly year of delay to certify the Falcon 9 emergency signal for the Starliner.
Maybe not. NASA did not require an inflight abort test for Starliner on Atlas even though Atlas's abort signal was new. F9 already has a tested and certified abort signal. I would speculate that NASA could choose to certify Starliner-on-F9 fairly quickly.
But why? Just stay on Atlas. Those seven Atlas Vs are not competitive, but they (or the parts to build them) are already in inventory at ULA (I think), What would ULA do with them? If ULA takes a loss on them, the loss will flow upward to the corporate parents, 50% to Boeing. The remaining 19 Atlas V are allocated as 7 to Starliner, 9 to Kuiper, and three others (Viasat-3 EMEA, USSF-51, NROL-107). There are no further customers for Atlas.
My understanding is the certification is the combination of both vehicles. Throwing Starliner on F9 would still require recertification to ensure the necessary information could be transferred between vehicles and that aerodynamics aren't a concern.
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#893
by
Jim
on 18 Jul, 2023 02:23
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But why? Just stay on Atlas. Those seven Atlas Vs are not competitive, but they (or the parts to build them) are already in inventory at ULA (I think), What would ULA do with them? If ULA takes a loss on them, the loss will flow upward to the corporate parents, 50% to Boeing. The remaining 19 Atlas V are allocated as 7 to Starliner, 9 to Kuiper, and three others (Viasat-3 EMEA, USSF-51, NROL-107). There are no further customers for Atlas.
They are competitive. they are already paid for by Boeing. ULA is not taking a lost on this. Also, they are a unique configuration with two engines in the second stage.
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#894
by
DanClemmensen
on 18 Jul, 2023 02:32
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But why? Just stay on Atlas. Those seven Atlas Vs are not competitive, but they (or the parts to build them) are already in inventory at ULA (I think), What would ULA do with them? If ULA takes a loss on them, the loss will flow upward to the corporate parents, 50% to Boeing. The remaining 19 Atlas V are allocated as 7 to Starliner, 9 to Kuiper, and three others (Viasat-3 EMEA, USSF-51, NROL-107). There are no further customers for Atlas.
They are competitive. they are already paid for by Boeing. ULA is not taking a lost on this. Also, they are a unique configuration with two engines in the second stage.
I hope and believe that ULA will make money on those 7 Atlas V launches and on the nine Kuiper launches. What I meant was that ULA would have difficulty selling any of them to a new customer in a competitive situation if any of those 16 LVs became available. They would be competing against F9 in the short term, Vulcan Centaur in the near term, and Starship and NG in the mid-to-long term.
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#895
by
DanClemmensen
on 18 Jul, 2023 15:27
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But why? Just stay on Atlas. Those seven Atlas Vs are not competitive, but they (or the parts to build them) are already in inventory at ULA (I think), What would ULA do with them? If ULA takes a loss on them, the loss will flow upward to the corporate parents, 50% to Boeing. The remaining 19 Atlas V are allocated as 7 to Starliner, 9 to Kuiper, and three others (Viasat-3 EMEA, USSF-51, NROL-107). There are no further customers for Atlas.
They are competitive. they are already paid for by Boeing. ULA is not taking a lost on this. Also, they are a unique configuration with two engines in the second stage.
I hope and believe that ULA will make money on those 7 Atlas V launches and on the nine Kuiper launches. What I meant was that ULA would have difficulty selling any of them to a new customer in a competitive situation if any of those 16 LVs became available. They would be competing against F9 in the short term, Vulcan Centaur in the near term, and Starship and NG in the mid-to-long term.
They would've just sold them all to uncle sam in the NSSL contract, instead of putting Vulcan in when they did.
Not possible, because congress prohibited the use of Atlas V with its Russian engines for NSSL after 2020. The last Atlas V flights for NSSL were contracted before that date and were then delayed. I am going from memory and I probably got the details wrong. Vulcan was intended to replace Atlas V by 2021 for this reason among others.
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#896
by
FutureSpaceTourist
on 26 Jul, 2023 12:07
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https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1684170472332697600
Boeing says it recorded a $257 million loss on its CST-100 Starliner program in the second quarter because of continued launch delays, part of a $527 million loss in the quarter for the Defense, Space & Security unit.
https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2023-07-26-Boeing-Reports-Second-Quarter-Results
I believe that puts the declared losses at well over a billion:
$410 million January 2020
$185 million October 2021
$93 million July 2022
$195 million October 2022
$257 million July 2023
Total: $1.14 billion
Presumably there were some profits built into the original contract and there’s significant more revenue to come when Starliner actually delivers crew? Even so, program losses will still be enormous.
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#897
by
FutureSpaceTourist
on 26 Jul, 2023 17:38
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It seems I didn’t look back far enough for Boeings losses:
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/26/boeing-has-lost-1point5-billion-developing-starliner-spacecraft-for-nasa.htmlBoeing’s Starliner losses total $1.5 billion with NASA astronauts still waiting to fly
PUBLISHED WED, JUL 26 20231:33 PM EDT
Michael Sheetz
@IN/MICHAELJSHEETZ
@THESHEETZTWEETZ
Leslie Josephs
@LESLIEJOSEPHS
KEY POINTS
Boeing’s latest charge on its Starliner astronaut spacecraft brings the program’s overrun costs to $1.5 billion to date.
The aerospace giant last month decided to indefinitely delay the first crewed Starliner launch.
Since 2014, when NASA awarded Boeing with a nearly $5 billion fixed-price contract to develop Starliner, the company has recorded losses on the program almost every year.
https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1684255926658777088Boeing’s losses on Starliner, by year (per quarterly and annual report filings):
2016 - $162 million
2018 - $57 million
2019 - $489 million
2021 - $214 million
2022 - $288 million
2023 - $257 million
For a grand total of: $1.467 B
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#898
by
matthewkantar
on 26 Jul, 2023 18:02
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Will Boeing recoup these losses if they fly the missions, reach the milestones, etc?
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#899
by
Vettedrmr
on 26 Jul, 2023 18:25
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Will Boeing recoup these losses if they fly the missions, reach the milestones, etc?
They get paid for accomplishing the milestones, so the profit from those will go towards recouping losses, but nothing more.
