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#640
by
meekGee
on 02 Dec, 2022 09:01
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The problem is not the level of success of Starliner OFT-2. The problem is the hype.
Yes, exactly, it is the hype. We have had exactly one item of communication from Boeing in the last months which claims that everything is ready to go except that NASA just awarded the Fall 2023 Crewed flight to SpaceX.
The hype at Boeing exists because it is a publically traded company, in dire need of making itself look good to its shareholders (after the poor performance on several of their high-profile projects). Their main competitor in spaceflight is a fully private company, and does not have that problem: it can look bad to the public and get away with it because their customers do not care about public image (neither do Boeing's customers care about Boeing's public image btw). Instead, their customers look at actual performance.
Which is why Boeing still hasn't been allowed to fly CFT, while their main competitor has been operational for years now and even got 8 additional PCM's awarded.
So, remind me again why we are waisting so much of Chris's bandwith to that Boeing advertisement?
It's like that infamous split print ad from some years ago: "Other companies idea of PR vs. our idea of PR" with paid opinion pieces on the Boeing side and astronauts in zero-g on the SpaceX side.
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#641
by
woods170
on 02 Dec, 2022 12:08
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The problem is not the level of success of Starliner OFT-2. The problem is the hype.
Yes, exactly, it is the hype. We have had exactly one item of communication from Boeing in the last months which claims that everything is ready to go except that NASA just awarded the Fall 2023 Crewed flight to SpaceX.
The hype at Boeing exists because it is a publically traded company, in dire need of making itself look good to its shareholders (after the poor performance on several of their high-profile projects). Their main competitor in spaceflight is a fully private company, and does not have that problem: it can look bad to the public and get away with it because their customers do not care about public image (neither do Boeing's customers care about Boeing's public image btw). Instead, their customers look at actual performance.
Which is why Boeing still hasn't been allowed to fly CFT, while their main competitor has been operational for years now and even got 8 additional PCM's awarded.
So, remind me again why we are waisting so much of Chris's bandwith to that Boeing advertisement?
It's like that infamous split print ad from some years ago: "Other companies idea of PR vs. our idea of PR" with paid opinion pieces on the Boeing side and astronauts in zero-g on the SpaceX side.
Yes. How the tables have turned.
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#642
by
SoftwareDude
on 02 Dec, 2022 16:46
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The problem is not the level of success of Starliner OFT-2. The problem is the hype.
Yes, exactly, it is the hype. We have had exactly one item of communication from Boeing in the last months which claims that everything is ready to go except that NASA just awarded the Fall 2023 Crewed flight to SpaceX.
The hype at Boeing exists because it is a publically traded company, in dire need of making itself look good to its shareholders (after the poor performance on several of their high-profile projects). Their main competitor in spaceflight is a fully private company, and does not have that problem: it can look bad to the public and get away with it because their customers do not care about public image (neither do Boeing's customers care about Boeing's public image btw). Instead, their customers look at actual performance.
Which is why Boeing still hasn't been allowed to fly CFT, while their main competitor has been operational for years now and even got 8 additional PCM's awarded.
So, remind me again why we are waisting so much of Chris's bandwith to that Boeing advertisement?
It's like that infamous split print ad from some years ago: "Other companies idea of PR vs. our idea of PR" with paid opinion pieces on the Boeing side and astronauts in zero-g on the SpaceX side.
We are wasting Chris's bandwidth? We can do one thing important here. We can provide accurate information on all companies, public or private that use government money; that is why the founders created the first amendment.
By the way, publicly traded companies are not allowed to mislead investors.
If something serious goes wrong with Starliner's CFT, is Boeing at risk of running fewer missions than they were paid to do before the ISS retires?
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#643
by
DanClemmensen
on 02 Dec, 2022 17:45
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The problem is not the level of success of Starliner OFT-2. The problem is the hype.
Yes, exactly, it is the hype. We have had exactly one item of communication from Boeing in the last months which claims that everything is ready to go except that NASA just awarded the Fall 2023 Crewed flight to SpaceX.
The hype at Boeing exists because it is a publically traded company, in dire need of making itself look good to its shareholders (after the poor performance on several of their high-profile projects). Their main competitor in spaceflight is a fully private company, and does not have that problem: it can look bad to the public and get away with it because their customers do not care about public image (neither do Boeing's customers care about Boeing's public image btw). Instead, their customers look at actual performance.
Which is why Boeing still hasn't been allowed to fly CFT, while their main competitor has been operational for years now and even got 8 additional PCM's awarded.
So, remind me again why we are waisting so much of Chris's bandwith to that Boeing advertisement?
It's like that infamous split print ad from some years ago: "Other companies idea of PR vs. our idea of PR" with paid opinion pieces on the Boeing side and astronauts in zero-g on the SpaceX side.
We are wasting Chris's bandwidth? We can do one thing important here. We can provide accurate information on all companies, public or private that use government money; that is why the founders created the first amendment.
By the way, publicly traded companies are not allowed to mislead investors.
If something serious goes wrong with Starliner's CFT, is Boeing at risk of running fewer missions than they were paid to do before the ISS retires?
If noting goes wrong, they get one CCP mission per year in the years 2024-2029. If something goes wrong that slips X years, add X to 2029 to get the last year, then get out your crystal ball to see if ISS is still operating. I suppose NASA could choose to fly back-to-back Starliner flights after the last of the 14 Crew Dragon flights, but with only two Starliner capsules Boeing will probably find it difficult to fly back-to-back flights.
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#644
by
whitelancer64
on 02 Dec, 2022 19:44
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Yeah, it did prove itself - by successfully completing all of the planned test flight milestones, including docking with the ISS.
Does that mean that it was a flawless flight? No. There were a few anomalies that need to be looked into and addressed before the next flight. The same thing happened on the SpaceX Crew Dragon test flights.
In March of 2019, did SpaceX make a statement about Demo-1 equivalent to Boeing's
Probably. I would be utterly unsurprised if they did. Twitter's search function isn't working very well for some reason, lol
In May, our spacecraft proved itself ready to carry @NASA_Astronauts to @Space_Station.
The problem is not the level of success of Starliner OFT-2. The problem is the hype.
Oh no, a company's product gets honored with an award by a magazine, so they tweet and post a small article about it on their website. Such hype. Very wow.
Nevermind that SpaceX has won the Best of What's New a couple of times, too.
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#645
by
abaddon
on 02 Dec, 2022 21:03
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Most of us are just looking forward to when Boeing actually flies astronauts, and puffery before that seems inappropriate. This has nothing to do with SpaceX (or Sierra Space or ULA or anyone else) it's to do with Boeing struggling to fulfill their crew transport contract with NASA. I look forward to a hopefully fully successful CFT and first operational mission in the coming year.
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#646
by
whitelancer64
on 02 Dec, 2022 21:12
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#647
by
DanClemmensen
on 03 Dec, 2022 14:42
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Most of us are just looking forward to when Boeing actually flies astronauts, and puffery before that seems inappropriate. This has nothing to do with SpaceX (or Sierra Space or ULA or anyone else) it's to do with Boeing struggling to fulfill their crew transport contract with NASA. I look forward to a hopefully fully successful CFT and first operational mission in the coming year.
IMO, it's not any more or less "puffery" than, say, something like this:
"Demo-1 Launch Ushers in ‘New Era in Spaceflight’"
https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2019/03/02/demo-1-launch-ushers-in-new-era-in-spaceflight/
And that was posted just after it had launched, before the capsule had even docked to the ISS.
"the success of the test flight, known as Demo-1, helps paves the way for a crewed mission of the SpaceX vehicle, perhaps as early as this summer."
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/spacex-crew-dragon-splashes-down-after-historic-test-flight/
Your first quote was from NASA, not from SpaceX. NASA tends to overhype and dumb down their announcements.
Your second quote was from Scientific American, not from SpaceX, but is nevertheless a informative example of objective journalism. In marked contrast to the Boeing quote, this Scientific American quote is precise: it says that the SpaceX OFT helps pave the way for a single crewed mission (i.e., the CFT). It does not say or imply that Crew Dragon is ready to fly multiple crewed missions.
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#648
by
Vahe231991
on 22 Feb, 2023 03:56
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Given that Boeing is developing the Exploration Upper Stage for SLS Blocks 1B and 2 and that the unit cost of this stage is most probably $800 million, it is possible that Boeing could save money for the EUS by choosing to terminate the Starliner program even if all manned flights of Starliner on contract (including the CFT) are carried out. After all, the manned Dragon 2 has swamped out the Starliner in terms of manned flights being conducted under budget and to some extent on time.
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#649
by
Jim
on 22 Feb, 2023 13:34
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Given that Boeing is developing the Exploration Upper Stage for SLS Blocks 1B and 2 and that the unit cost of this stage is most probably $800 million, it is possible that Boeing could save money for the EUS by choosing to terminate the Starliner program even if all manned flights of Starliner on contract (including the CFT) are carried out. After all, the manned Dragon 2 has swamped out the Starliner in terms of manned flights being conducted under budget and to some extent on time.
Wrong. CST-100 and EUS money come from different sources. CST-100 has no bearing on EUS. CST-100 is self funded. NASA is funding EUS.
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#650
by
DanClemmensen
on 22 Feb, 2023 16:32
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Given that Boeing is developing the Exploration Upper Stage for SLS Blocks 1B and 2 and that the unit cost of this stage is most probably $800 million, it is possible that Boeing could save money for the EUS by choosing to terminate the Starliner program even if all manned flights of Starliner on contract (including the CFT) are carried out. After all, the manned Dragon 2 has swamped out the Starliner in terms of manned flights being conducted under budget and to some extent on time.
The EUS is being developed under NASA control using cost-plus contracting. Starliner is an entirely separate contract, a fixed-price contract under Boeing control. It is not "over-budget" because the price was fixed in 2014 (slight mod in 2018). There is no mechanism to move money from the fixed-price Starliner budget into the cost-plus EUS budget short of an act of congress. Yes, Starliner flights are more expensive than Crew Dragon flights. This has been known since 2014 and has not changed. It is the price NASA paid for ensuring that there is an alternate to Crew Dragon. Boeing will likely lose money on Starliner overall and might even be losing money on each flight, but they signed a contract and they are obligated to provide the service, which at their insistence was modified to include a full six operational flights after the CFT rather than the original two flights plus an option for two more.
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#651
by
Comga
on 24 Mar, 2023 02:15
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#652
by
Tomness
on 24 Mar, 2023 02:35
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#653
by
DanClemmensen
on 24 Mar, 2023 02:40
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More details on reasons for delay:
Boeing’s first crewed Starliner flight is delayed till at least the summer, NASA said today.
Debate over spacecraft batteries, other items and last-minutes tests of Starliner’s backup flight software made its late April launch window a no-go
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/science/nasa-delays-boeing-starliners-debut-crewed-voyage-2023-03-23/
Federal procurement data shows NASA has agreed to pay Boeing at least $24.8 million for the upgrade of that [thruster] system
Still more money?
“at least $24.8M”?
From the Reuters article:
Boeing also is weighing battery redesigns and a plan to add shielding in case one overheats, Stich said. SpaceX, which has already flown seven crewed missions for NASA since 2020, redesigned its spacecraft's batteries at one point, he said.
"Of course, they have the luxury of having a lot of battery expertise at Tesla(TSLA.O)," Stich said, referring to the electric carmaker Musk leads.
Tesla and SpaceX are completely different companies, and mass-market automotive batteries are not the same as aerospace batteries. By contrast, Boeing is an aerospace company that uses Li-ion batteries in its aircraft. You would think that Boeing "has the luxury", not SpaceX, especially given their experience with redesigning aircraft battery systems after fires.
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#654
by
DanClemmensen
on 24 Mar, 2023 02:44
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Federal procurement data shows NASA has agreed to pay Boeing at least $24.8 million for the upgrade of that [thruster] system
Still more money?
“at least $24.8M”?
Did I mis-read the article? I thought the $24.8 M was for an upgrade to the system that separated the SM from the CM, not the thruster system.
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#655
by
SoftwareDude
on 24 Mar, 2023 07:55
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What is Stich trying to do by bringing up Dragon's batteries?
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#656
by
woods170
on 24 Mar, 2023 08:21
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What is Stich trying to do by bringing up Dragon's batteries?
Trying to downplay the fact that Boeing screwed up with batteries...again.
It is a textbook example of "whataboutism".
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#657
by
SoftwareDude
on 24 Mar, 2023 08:30
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What is Stich trying to do by bringing up Dragon's batteries?
Trying to downplay the fact that Boeing screwed up with batteries...again.
It is a textbook example of "whataboutism".
Yes, I get that but Stich doesn't work for Boeing; what is his motivation?
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#658
by
woods170
on 24 Mar, 2023 08:34
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More details on reasons for delay:
https://twitter.com/joroulette/status/1639036619742392320
Boeing’s first crewed Starliner flight is delayed till at least the summer, NASA said today.
Debate over spacecraft batteries, other items and last-minutes tests of Starliner’s backup flight software made its late April launch window a no-go
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/science/nasa-delays-boeing-starliners-debut-crewed-voyage-2023-03-23/
Federal procurement data shows NASA has agreed to pay Boeing at least $24.8 million for the upgrade of that [thruster] system
Still more money?
“at least $24.8M”?
Additional work demanded by NASA, outside of the scope of the originally agreed CCtCAP milestones and standards, will result in additions to the contract, along with additional payments. Contract modifications to Firm Fixed Price Contracts are very much possible.
That is the case here: the redesign of the system separating the CM from the SM was not Boeing's idea, but is a wish from NASA.
Much like how NASA has altered the CCtCAP contract with SpaceX on several occassions, to add capabilities to Crew Dragon that were not originally part of the 2014 CCtCAP contract scope.
On the other end: redesigning the Starliner batteries is something that NASA won't pay for. The current design just doesn't meet the NASA safety standards for CCP. Which means that Boeing has to improve them, to yet meet the standards. Whatever improvement or redesign is needed, comes from Boeing's own pockets.
So, the revenue and profit figures from Boeing over 2023 will likely see yet another charge to support Starliner costs.
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#659
by
woods170
on 24 Mar, 2023 09:10
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What is Stich trying to do by bringing up Dragon's batteries?
Trying to downplay the fact that Boeing screwed up with batteries...again.
It is a textbook example of "whataboutism".
Yes, I get that but Stich doesn't work for Boeing; what is his motivation?
That should be obvious: keeping the heat away from Boeing is the purpose.
NASA needs a second CCP provider. If Boeing gets too much flack they just might consider stepping out of CCP. They have afterall threatened to do so multiple times in the past. Especially now that their financial losses on CCtCAP are racking up fast. They made those threats, despite the fact that they tried to hide those threats by lofty statements such as "We remain committed to fulfilling our CCP obligations".
NASA losing Boeing as a back-up CCP provider would invalidate a lot of the arguments used by NASA to go all-out on public-private partnerships.
Losing Boeing in CCP would give fuel to those people in US Congress who keep pushing for "fully government owned and operated" systems for Space Exploration. Those people still exist in US Congress, despite the recent departure of people like Richard Shelby and Eddie Bernice Johnson.
So, Steve Stich defending Boeing by applying whataboutism (with SpaceX as the subject) is politically motivated.