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#1480
by
laszlo
on 21 Jun, 2024 10:15
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For all the folks who are so terrified by the He leaks, have you never driven an old car with slow oil or transmission leak? That's what it's like, not like Brubaker's jet at the end of The Bridges of Toko Ri. Just because you see a bit of fluid on the driveway or garage floor doesn't mean that everyone in the car is going to die. Same thing here. NASA/Boeing have said that they have 10x the helium they need to return, even with the leak. So it's just like a car with a 4-quart/liter oil capacity that's losing a teaspoon of oil each drive. Everyone take a deep breath and lock up your copies of Marooned until after the end of the mission.
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#1481
by
laszlo
on 21 Jun, 2024 10:18
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Can SpaceX send up a capsule with spacesuits to fit the two astronauts and rescue the two?
They are launching rockets every couple of days. Don't know if they have capsules already designated for specific crews or could build a capsule quickly enough to not delay any future launches.
If it looks like they won't get there in time Gregory Peck can rip the pages out of the countdown manual to speed up the process.
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#1482
by
meekGee
on 21 Jun, 2024 13:26
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For all the folks who are so terrified by the He leaks, have you never driven an old car with slow oil or transmission leak? That's what it's like, not like Brubaker's jet at the end of The Bridges of Toko Ri. Just because you see a bit of fluid on the driveway or garage floor doesn't mean that everyone in the car is going to die. Same thing here. NASA/Boeing have said that they have 10x the helium they need to return, even with the leak. So it's just like a car with a 4-quart/liter oil capacity that's losing a teaspoon of oil each drive. Everyone take a deep breath and lock up your copies of Marooned until after the end of the mission.
More like it's leaking 0.4 liters over the coming drive, and if it runs out of oil, it's lethal.
It's a terribly bad analogy, but get the numbers right.
It's probably safe to return to Earth, but it's not a triviality. If they only have 70 hours, that's not a minor leak...
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#1483
by
deadman1204
on 21 Jun, 2024 14:35
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For all the folks who are so terrified by the He leaks, have you never driven an old car with slow oil or transmission leak? That's what it's like, not like Brubaker's jet at the end of The Bridges of Toko Ri. Just because you see a bit of fluid on the driveway or garage floor doesn't mean that everyone in the car is going to die. Same thing here. NASA/Boeing have said that they have 10x the helium they need to return, even with the leak. So it's just like a car with a 4-quart/liter oil capacity that's losing a teaspoon of oil each drive. Everyone take a deep breath and lock up your copies of Marooned until after the end of the mission.
More like it's leaking 0.4 liters over the coming drive, and if it runs out of oil, it's lethal.
It's a terribly bad analogy, but get the numbers right.
It's probably safe to return to Earth, but it's not a triviality. If they only have 70 hours, that's not a minor leak...
Yup, your car that is slowly dripping oil will run out eventually, and it'll break down. OBvious doom and gloom though cause everyones gonna die! Starliner is fine, and I would bet anything you would NEVER had made this statement if it was dragon with the helium leaks....
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#1484
by
matthewkantar
on 21 Jun, 2024 14:36
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Is it unreasonable to not want my 4+ billion dollar vehicle dripping oil on the garage floor?
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#1485
by
aperh1988
on 21 Jun, 2024 14:43
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It was mentioned during Tuesday's presser that the Crew Module thrusters will be tested following Starliner's departure burn from the ISS.
I *assume* they were tested prior to docking, but I don't know.
If you look at post-docking photos it looks like the RCS covers on the CM are still in place.
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#1486
by
docmordrid
on 21 Jun, 2024 14:49
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For all the folks who are so terrified by the He leaks, have you never driven an old car with slow oil or transmission leak? That's what it's like, not like Brubaker's jet at the end of The Bridges of Toko Ri. Just because you see a bit of fluid on the driveway or garage floor doesn't mean that everyone in the car is going to die. Same thing here. NASA/Boeing have said that they have 10x the helium they need to return, even with the leak. So it's just like a car with a 4-quart/liter oil capacity that's losing a teaspoon of oil each drive. Everyone take a deep breath and lock up your copies of Marooned until after the end of the mission.
A better analogy would be if brake fluid is leaking in several locations. I don't care how many wheels and caliper sets you have, once the brake system is unable to maintain pressure things get dangerous.
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#1487
by
meekGee
on 21 Jun, 2024 15:08
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For all the folks who are so terrified by the He leaks, have you never driven an old car with slow oil or transmission leak? That's what it's like, not like Brubaker's jet at the end of The Bridges of Toko Ri. Just because you see a bit of fluid on the driveway or garage floor doesn't mean that everyone in the car is going to die. Same thing here. NASA/Boeing have said that they have 10x the helium they need to return, even with the leak. So it's just like a car with a 4-quart/liter oil capacity that's losing a teaspoon of oil each drive. Everyone take a deep breath and lock up your copies of Marooned until after the end of the mission.
More like it's leaking 0.4 liters over the coming drive, and if it runs out of oil, it's lethal.
It's a terribly bad analogy, but get the numbers right.
It's probably safe to return to Earth, but it's not a triviality. If they only have 70 hours, that's not a minor leak...
Yup, your car that is slowly dripping oil will run out eventually, and it'll break down. OBvious doom and gloom though cause everyones gonna die! Starliner is fine, and I would bet anything you would NEVER had made this statement if it was dragon with the helium leaks....
Oh come on, what statements? Are you trolling on purpose?
"It's probably safe to return to Earth, but it's not a triviality." - oh no, did I cross the line there? And what does Dragon have to do with it?
Engine oil in a parked car is a terrible analogy to the criticality of Helium pressurant in an orbiting spacecraft. And losing it all in 3 days of flight is not a slow drip.
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#1488
by
DanClemmensen
on 21 Jun, 2024 15:42
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For all the folks who are so terrified by the He leaks, have you never driven an old car with slow oil or transmission leak? That's what it's like, not like Brubaker's jet at the end of The Bridges of Toko Ri. Just because you see a bit of fluid on the driveway or garage floor doesn't mean that everyone in the car is going to die. Same thing here. NASA/Boeing have said that they have 10x the helium they need to return, even with the leak. So it's just like a car with a 4-quart/liter oil capacity that's losing a teaspoon of oil each drive. Everyone take a deep breath and lock up your copies of Marooned until after the end of the mission.
More like it's leaking 0.4 liters over the coming drive, and if it runs out of oil, it's lethal.
It's a terribly bad analogy, but get the numbers right.
It's probably safe to return to Earth, but it's not a triviality. If they only have 70 hours, that's not a minor leak...
Starliner has a limited free-flying time after it undocks due to other constraints even if there were no helium leak. I cannot find a recent description of the free-flying time, but a reference from 2011 (used in Wikipedia) says Starliner has a free-flying life of 60 hours.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130501135247/http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/defense-space/space/ccts/docs/Space_2011_Boeing.pdfNo, it should not leak, but it's not critical for CFT. However, until they figure out whatever is is that caused these leaks and how to fix it, they should not fly again.
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#1489
by
Lee Jay
on 21 Jun, 2024 16:03
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I would be afraid to come back in a leaking capsule. I know they may have enough helium to pressurize the hypergolic fuels, but it could get worse before coming back through the atmosphere. I was concerned a few years ago when SpaceX blew up one of their capsules while testing. Space is hard. Must have robust systems for humans.
AIUI the leaks are part of the SM, jettisoned well before re-entry.
All of them?
This could make it way harder to determine root cause compared to them getting the system back.
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#1490
by
meekGee
on 21 Jun, 2024 16:46
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For all the folks who are so terrified by the He leaks, have you never driven an old car with slow oil or transmission leak? That's what it's like, not like Brubaker's jet at the end of The Bridges of Toko Ri. Just because you see a bit of fluid on the driveway or garage floor doesn't mean that everyone in the car is going to die. Same thing here. NASA/Boeing have said that they have 10x the helium they need to return, even with the leak. So it's just like a car with a 4-quart/liter oil capacity that's losing a teaspoon of oil each drive. Everyone take a deep breath and lock up your copies of Marooned until after the end of the mission.
More like it's leaking 0.4 liters over the coming drive, and if it runs out of oil, it's lethal.
It's a terribly bad analogy, but get the numbers right.
It's probably safe to return to Earth, but it's not a triviality. If they only have 70 hours, that's not a minor leak...
Starliner has a limited free-flying time after it undocks due to other constraints even if there were no helium leak. I cannot find a recent description of the free-flying time, but a reference from 2011 (used in Wikipedia) says Starliner has a free-flying life of 60 hours.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130501135247/http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/defense-space/space/ccts/docs/Space_2011_Boeing.pdf
No, it should not leak, but it's not critical for CFT. However, until they figure out whatever is is that caused these leaks and how to fix it, they should not fly again.
Yup of course they'll fix it before flying again it's not acceptable as a starting condition...
In fact the decision to launch with one leak proved misguided since a bunch more opened up at launch, and we're happy they were small, but nobody could have told in advance what size they'd be... This was not an unknown unknown. They gambled and got away with it, but not by much. In hindsight, maybe they should have investigated and fixed it before going.
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#1491
by
Vettedrmr
on 21 Jun, 2024 17:09
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I would be afraid to come back in a leaking capsule. I know they may have enough helium to pressurize the hypergolic fuels, but it could get worse before coming back through the atmosphere. I was concerned a few years ago when SpaceX blew up one of their capsules while testing. Space is hard. Must have robust systems for humans.
AIUI the leaks are part of the SM, jettisoned well before re-entry.
All of them?
This could make it way harder to determine root cause compared to them getting the system back.
I've not heard of any thruster issues (including He leaks) on the CM.
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#1492
by
freddo411
on 21 Jun, 2024 17:35
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I would be afraid to come back in a leaking capsule. I know they may have enough helium to pressurize the hypergolic fuels, but it could get worse before coming back through the atmosphere. I was concerned a few years ago when SpaceX blew up one of their capsules while testing. Space is hard. Must have robust systems for humans.
AIUI the leaks are part of the SM, jettisoned well before re-entry.
All of them?
This could make it way harder to determine root cause compared to them getting the system back.
It would be better if they could examine them.
Keep in mind, that the first leak began on the ground. Seems likely that they can examine the next service module and get the leaks to happen again if they in fact used the same valves and assembly procedures.
Spaceflight gets easier in some respects when reusable vehicles are the norm
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#1493
by
cpushack
on 21 Jun, 2024 17:38
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I would be afraid to come back in a leaking capsule. I know they may have enough helium to pressurize the hypergolic fuels, but it could get worse before coming back through the atmosphere. I was concerned a few years ago when SpaceX blew up one of their capsules while testing. Space is hard. Must have robust systems for humans.
AIUI the leaks are part of the SM, jettisoned well before re-entry.
All of them?
This could make it way harder to determine root cause compared to them getting the system back.
It would be better if they could examine them.
Keep in mind, that the first leak began on the ground. Seems likely that they can examine the next service module and get the leaks to happen again if they in fact used the same valves and assembly procedures.
Spaceflight gets easier in some respects when reusable vehicles are the norm
They could actually TEST the integrated thrusters on the ground instead of relying on unit tests and modeling. That would go along ways to understanding the systems.
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#1494
by
Coastal Ron
on 21 Jun, 2024 18:04
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For all the folks who are so terrified by the He leaks, have you never driven an old car with slow oil or transmission leak?
Your analogy misses the point in that the car you are talking about is in an urban environment, where you can either quickly grab some replacement oil from the nearby auto store or just grab an alternate ride if needed.
Starliner is in space, without the ability for anyone to "
stick in a new can of helium". The longer Starliner stays in space, the less likely it can complete its mission safely. There is no getting around that fact.
More importantly to me, is the fact that so many leaks exist. That to me sounds like a design flaw or a production flaw, neither of which were found during testing on the ground, so that also means they have flaws in their test program.
Even assuming a flawless return to Earth, it is hard to see how Starliner will be able to fly again soon, because NASA is going to want to understand the root cause of the helium leaks - and IIRC Boeing stated they don't understand why they have so many leaks. That merits a significant investigation...
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#1495
by
abaddon
on 21 Jun, 2024 18:37
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I would be afraid to come back in a leaking capsule. I know they may have enough helium to pressurize the hypergolic fuels, but it could get worse before coming back through the atmosphere. I was concerned a few years ago when SpaceX blew up one of their capsules while testing. Space is hard. Must have robust systems for humans.
AIUI the leaks are part of the SM, jettisoned well before re-entry.
All of them?
This could make it way harder to determine root cause compared to them getting the system back.
Indeed, which is why they are spending so much time trying to troubleshoot on orbit.
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#1496
by
meekGee
on 21 Jun, 2024 19:06
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I would be afraid to come back in a leaking capsule. I know they may have enough helium to pressurize the hypergolic fuels, but it could get worse before coming back through the atmosphere. I was concerned a few years ago when SpaceX blew up one of their capsules while testing. Space is hard. Must have robust systems for humans.
AIUI the leaks are part of the SM, jettisoned well before re-entry.
All of them?
This could make it way harder to determine root cause compared to them getting the system back.
Indeed, which is why they are spending so much time trying to troubleshoot on orbit.
They have a second unit on the ground, right? Given that the first leak was pre-launch, and that there were 4 more later, they should be getting something similar on the ground, statistically speaking.
I'm paying closer attention though to any word about propellant valves.
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#1497
by
DanClemmensen
on 21 Jun, 2024 19:34
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They have a second unit on the ground, right? Given that the first leak was pre-launch, and that there were 4 more later, they should be getting something similar on the ground, statistically speaking.
I'm paying closer attention though to any word about propellant valves.
This is the SM, which is expendable. They have a second capsule on the ground. I have no idea how many SMs they have on the ground. Anywhere from zero to six, depending on their production strategy.
Yep, the propellant valve issue is more interesting than the He leaks. are these the same valves as the ones that caused the August 2021 scrub and year-long delay of OFT-2, or are these different? Is the root cause this time the same as the last time, or different? On that scrub, they at least had the actual SM on the ground to analyze. The proximate cause was water causing corrosion. The root cause (source of the water) remains unknown AFIAK. The mitigation was to do stuff to keep the valves dry. I'm not knowledgeable enough to even speculate on how they can analyze the failure this time.
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#1498
by
abaddon
on 21 Jun, 2024 20:28
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I would be afraid to come back in a leaking capsule. I know they may have enough helium to pressurize the hypergolic fuels, but it could get worse before coming back through the atmosphere. I was concerned a few years ago when SpaceX blew up one of their capsules while testing. Space is hard. Must have robust systems for humans.
AIUI the leaks are part of the SM, jettisoned well before re-entry.
All of them?
This could make it way harder to determine root cause compared to them getting the system back.
Indeed, which is why they are spending so much time trying to troubleshoot on orbit.
They have a second unit on the ground, right? Given that the first leak was pre-launch, and that there were 4 more later, they should be getting something similar on the ground, statistically speaking.
I'm paying closer attention though to any word about propellant valves.
Pretty sure they talked about how on-the-ground testing isn't showing the issues they are seeing on orbit in the most recent presser. From what I recall, the pre-launch leak and the on-orbit leaks don't look the same. Of course, they chose not to go in and look at the pre-launch SM leak as that would have involved a destack and a lot of invasive work to get to the He manifold.
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#1499
by
zoey
on 21 Jun, 2024 20:38
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..... The proximate cause was water causing corrosion. The root cause (source of the water) remains unknown AFIAK. The mitigation was to do stuff to keep the valves dry. I'm not knowledgeable enough to even speculate on how they can analyze the failure this time.
could the sublimator be the cause of it? I know it used more water than expected during launch and IIRC was again refilled on station.