The Competition of the Methalox engines

[Tywin]

Only post, to remember that BE-4 is complete operational, now...

[Robotbeat]

Only post, to remember that BE-4 is complete operational, now...

Not the upper stage version, though, nor has it done a relight!

[Lars-J]

Only post, to remember that BE-4 is complete operational, now...

Not the upper stage version, though, nor has it done a relight!

The upper stage version of the BE-4 was shelved years ago, so that seems like a silly benchmark set up.

But hopefully we’ll see a relight in the next 12 months.

[meekGee]

Only post, to remember that BE-4 is complete operational, now...

Eyeroll.

An old army joke:

An elephant and a mouse are running in the desert, and the mouse looks up at the elephant and says: "Hey look how much dust we're kicking up!".

Someone summed it up in one of these threads: "Raptor is amazing, and BE-4 also doesn't suck".

BE-4 is operational because it only had to launch an EELV. It's hardly a badge of honor that it's "operational first".

I wish y'all would have a happy day with BE-4 succeeding to launch Vulcan, and not take it into some "we're winning the war" BS. That false sense of superiority, that's how ULA lost it, and you don't want that.

BE-4 launching Vulcan is like Merlin launching F9.  So if you want to do comparisons, it is 10 years late.

[Robotbeat]

Only post, to remember that BE-4 is complete operational, now...

Not the upper stage version, though, nor has it done a relight!

The upper stage version of the BE-4 was shelved years ago, so that seems like a silly benchmark set up.

But hopefully we’ll see a relight in the next 12 months.

My point is merely if we limit ourselves to first stage, no relight uses of each engine, then Raptor performed very well before BE-4 flew on Vulcan… and in fact Aeon-1 had a flawless first stage flight as well even earlier. That both Raptor and Aeon had upper stages which didn’t work should count against them when comparing to BE-4 which only has been used for a first stage so far, and only two engines at that, compared to 33 and 9, respectively.

[chopsticks]

Then war has already been won by Zhuque last year. Boom.

[volker2020]

hat both Raptor and Aeon had upper stages which didn’t work should count against them when comparing to BE-4

If we believe Musk (and I have no reason not too), the upper stage Raptors did work flawlessly. Only when they dumped oxygen to simulate a payload, it came to the explosion.

[daedalus1]

Then war has already been won by Zhuque last year. Boom.

Read the original question of the thread.
Nothing to do with first to orbit.

[meekGee]

Which engines will be better in weight efficiency, ISP, reliability, power, etc....

In short, which will be the best Methalox engine in this decade?

JD-1

TQ-12

Raptor

BE-4

Aeon-R

Archimedes

Prometheus

Dhawan-1

RD-0169

So why bring up certification even?  Your original question is clearly answered already, both by spec sheets and by real life performance.

[Robotbeat]

There’s a new contender from Impulse Space: Deneb. 15klbf staged combustion methalox engine for their Helios kick stage.

[JayWee]

Is Deneb the smallest staged combustion engine?

[lightleviathan]

I'm pretty sure that Launcher's E1 engine is smaller

[briantipton]

I'm pretty sure that Launcher's E1 engine is smaller

Launcher E1 is definitely smaller, but I don't know that it is staged combustion - the E2 is staged combustion but larger than Deneb. The first Soviet SC engine, S1.5400, was 15klbs so about the same as Deneb.

[Tywin]

Only post, to remember that BE-4 is complete operational, now...

Eyeroll.

An old army joke:

An elephant and a mouse are running in the desert, and the mouse looks up at the elephant and says: "Hey look how much dust we're kicking up!".

Someone summed it up in one of these threads: "Raptor is amazing, and BE-4 also doesn't suck".

BE-4 is operational because it only had to launch an EELV. It's hardly a badge of honor that it's "operational first".

I wish y'all would have a happy day with BE-4 succeeding to launch Vulcan, and not take it into some "we're winning the war" BS. That false sense of superiority, that's how ULA lost it, and you don't want that.

BE-4 launching Vulcan is like Merlin launching F9.  So if you want to do comparisons, it is 10 years late.

Why you always are so hateful to Blue?

[Tywin]

There’s a new contender from Impulse Space: Deneb. 15klbf staged combustion methalox engine for their Helios kick stage.

Thanks, yes and some companies from China, are development new methalox engine too...

And we have the Typhoon from Nyx and Ariane...

And the new methalox engine, from ISRO for the NGLV...

[meekGee]

Only post, to remember that BE-4 is complete operational, now...

Eyeroll.

An old army joke:

An elephant and a mouse are running in the desert, and the mouse looks up at the elephant and says: "Hey look how much dust we're kicking up!".

Someone summed it up in one of these threads: "Raptor is amazing, and BE-4 also doesn't suck".

BE-4 is operational because it only had to launch an EELV. It's hardly a badge of honor that it's "operational first".

I wish y'all would have a happy day with BE-4 succeeding to launch Vulcan, and not take it into some "we're winning the war" BS. That false sense of superiority, that's how ULA lost it, and you don't want that.

BE-4 launching Vulcan is like Merlin launching F9.  So if you want to do comparisons, it is 10 years late.

Why you always are so hateful to Blue?

I quote from that very post:
"I wish y'all would have a happy day with BE-4 succeeding in launching Vulcan, and not take it into some "we're winning the war" BS. That false sense of superiority, that's how ULA lost it, and you don't want that."

See?  Nothing against BO.  They had a good day.  It is posts like yours that start the "engine wars" and try to prove that not only did BO have a good day, but now are somehow winning the war, the tortoise passes the hare, and all that other BS.

You start an argument, and then you're upset you get a response?

[Tywin]

Only post, to remember that BE-4 is complete operational, now...

Eyeroll.

An old army joke:

An elephant and a mouse are running in the desert, and the mouse looks up at the elephant and says: "Hey look how much dust we're kicking up!".

Someone summed it up in one of these threads: "Raptor is amazing, and BE-4 also doesn't suck".

BE-4 is operational because it only had to launch an EELV. It's hardly a badge of honor that it's "operational first".

I wish y'all would have a happy day with BE-4 succeeding to launch Vulcan, and not take it into some "we're winning the war" BS. That false sense of superiority, that's how ULA lost it, and you don't want that.

BE-4 launching Vulcan is like Merlin launching F9.  So if you want to do comparisons, it is 10 years late.

Why you always are so hateful to Blue?

I quote from that very post:
"I wish y'all would have a happy day with BE-4 succeeding in launching Vulcan, and not take it into some "we're winning the war" BS. That false sense of superiority, that's how ULA lost it, and you don't want that."

See?  Nothing against BO.  They had a good day.  It is posts like yours that start the "engine wars" and try to prove that not only did BO have a good day, but now are somehow winning the war, the tortoise passes the hare, and all that other BS.

You start an argument, and then you're upset you get a response?

In what moment, I said, "winning the war, the tortoise passes the hare,"?

I am only talking about at, one amazing a very powerful methalox engine, that is already operative...


I hope this thread continues for many years, it is supposed to be something, to talk about all the methalox engines that now, dominate the ERA rocket....

In a future, 10-15 years, we can make a podium of the best methalox engine in 3 different categories:

Heavy

Medium

Small

[meekGee]

In what moment, I said, "winning the war, the tortoise passes the hare,"?

Here?
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=47513.msg2417876#msg2417876

Here?
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=47513.msg2556116#msg2556116

And all through the thread, all the talk about how BE-4 "made a cis-lunar flight", and "operational"  -  all distinctions without importance since it's only operational in EELV-like booster operation, and you know very well it never gets to orbit, it never relights.

So you start these arguments with unfounded claims, and when you get push back, you whine that people just "hate Blue".  No sale.  What you're doing is ruining a perfectly impressive first-launch performance on Vulcan, and drowning it in a bunch of drivel so the actual achievement is lost.

[Tywin]

In what moment, I said, "winning the war, the tortoise passes the hare,"?

Here?
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=47513.msg2417876#msg2417876

Here?
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=47513.msg2556116#msg2556116

And all through the thread, all the talk about how BE-4 "made a cis-lunar flight", and "operational"  -  all distinctions without importance since it's only operational in EELV-like booster operation, and you know very well it never gets to orbit, it never relights.

So you start these arguments with unfounded claims, and when you get push back, you whine that people just "hate Blue".  No sale.  What you're doing is ruining a perfectly impressive first-launch performance on Vulcan, and drowning it in a bunch of drivel so the actual achievement is lost.

For fan like you was lost since the begining....NO sale either...

Let's stop this here, and continue talking about ALL the other methalox engines...

[spacenut]

Blue is slow and started about the same time as SpaceX.  Blue is developing many different engines like, BE-3, BE-3U, BE-4, BE-7, with both metholox and hydrolox.  They also have worked on a moon lander, New Shepard, as well as New Glenn.

SpaceX has developed only 3 engines, the Draco/Super Draco, Merlin, and now Raptor.  They developed vacuum engines from Merlin and Raptor. 

Blue hasn't launched one of their own rockets to orbit yet.  SpaceX hundreds of Falcon 9/Falcon Heavies.  SpaceX should make orbit and be successful with Starship/Superheavy by the time Blue gets New Glenn to orbit. 

SpaceX focuses on a problem and gets the solution done or quickly does away with an unproductive idea.  Blue has been working on a lot of things, but seems to drag on and not get anything for an orbital launcher completed.  They did get New Shepard operational, but has had some bugs. 

As far as the Metholox engines, both BE-4 and Raptor are operational and work.  SpaceX just has to work out Starship/superheavy problems.  Engines are not one of them, they work fine.  So it is basically a tie on the two engines working.  Getting to orbit is another thing.  ULA knows how to build an expendable rocket as shown with Vulcan.  SpaceX also knows how to build a reusable, at least the first stage rocket.  Starship will follow.  When is New Glenn going to launch?