Camden County Georgia USA FAA Launch Site Operator License, referendum rejection

[RonM]

Camden County, Georgia, USA received an LSOL from the FAA on December 20, 2021.

WOODBINE, Ga. – December 20, 2021 – Camden County, Georgia, a rocket testing location and alternate launch site for the Apollo program, has reclaimed its aerospace heritage with the issuance of a launch site operator license (LSOL) by the Federal Aviation Administration for Spaceport Camden. Spaceport Camden is a multiuser, vertical lift, commercial launch site on the Atlantic seaboard that will support up to
12 small vehicle launches per year.

“In the 20th century Camden County was declared the ‘Gateway to Space.’ With this license, we have retained that title again in the 21st century,” said Steve Howard, Camden County Administrator and Spaceport Camden executive project lead. “This once in a generation opportunity will provide a new frontier of economic prosperity for Camden, the region and the state of Georgia. Georgia is part of the new space race, and we will become one of the leaders,” added Howard.

“It has been long time coming, but Camden County is immensely proud of this accomplishment. With this license, Spaceport Camden offers coastal Georgia over 100 miles of opportunity,” said Board of County Commissioners Chairman, Gary Blount. “We are no longer a one-dimensional economy solely reliant on the brave sailors and contractors at Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay for economic prosperity,” added Blount.

Spaceport Camden becomes the thirteenth licensed spaceport in the United States, but just the third vertical lift facility on the East Coast. Vertical lift comprises the lion’s share of commercial space activity and low latitude east coast launch sites are preferred due to the extra velocity provided by the rotation of the Earth.

Located below 31 degrees of latitude, Spaceport Camden takes advantage of free boost velocity from the earth’s rotation to maximize payload and minimize fuel necessary to reach orbit. As a result, Spaceport Camden’s location offers similar launch characteristics to Cape Canaveral, the world’s busiest spaceport.

Camden County is the ideal location to meet growing launch demand from the commercial space industry - a $447 billion industry that Bank of America predicts will grow to $3 trillion by 2047. Not only does Camden County have a highly trained military workforce that can transition upon retirement to employment into the commercial space industry, the surrounding area has transportation infrastructure such as roads and rail that can provide support to the investment community.

https://spaceportcamden.us/

[zubenelgenubi: Threads merged; thread moved to Commercial Spaceflight General section.]

[rdale]

A Georgia county’s plan to build a rocket launch pad for sending satellites into space https://apnews.com/article/spacex-georgia-business-science-c3055985c2526fb7670e363fc64d71ad got rejected by voters Tuesday in a referendum forced by opponents who feared the project poses safety and environmental risks that outweigh any economic benefits.

https://apnews.com/article/space-launches-science-business-special-elections-referendums-f9de2d60cca21fe73248168fdee31243

[Robotbeat]

That majorly sucked. How many people actually voted on this, tho? Was it just a vocal few?

[rdale]

4,168 opposed to the land purchase and 1,611 in favor. That's a pretty big number

In addition - this point says a lot:  "more than half of licensed U.S. spaceports have never held a licensed launch"

In any event, here's the website of the spaceport itself - https://spaceportcamden.us/

[Robotbeat]

4,168 opposed to the land purchase and 1,611 in favor. That's a pretty big number

In addition - this point says a lot:  "more than half of licensed U.S. spaceports have never held a licensed launch"

In any event, here's the website of the spaceport itself - https://spaceportcamden.us/

How many people of voting age in Camden?

How is that an environmental objection, though? No launch, no launch environmental impact.

[rdale]

Well the environmental objection makes sense - that's a protected wildlife area underneath the launch path, plus actual resident homes...

While launching is relatively safe - I'm not sure we're at the point where it's safe to send a rocket directly over houses. I'm not sure how the county official said that it's no more dangerous than lightning. That seems... ridiculous...

[Elvis in Space]

I know a little about the area. I suspect very strongly it was a case of "We're happy and there's no need to mess with that." You can make all the logical arguments about safety and environment you want, the locals just plain don't want it. Or anything else.

[rdale]

Oh yeah - I'm sure it's the "we don't need anyone changing our lifestyle." This is a lowland county of 50,000 and probably is just how they want it to be! And I understand the passion for space (and tax money) of the government leaders, but suggesting that this launch site would be a big tourism draw MIGHT be stretching just a bit...

Or stretching it a LOT

[Robotbeat]

So maybe 15% of the of-age population voted?

Hey, more for eastern Virginia!

[RonM]

Here's what some of the locals are concerned about.

Critics, including the National Park Service, say rockets exploding soon after launch could rain fiery debris onto Little Cumberland Island, which has about 40 private homes, and neighboring Cumberland Island, a federally protected wilderness visited by about 60,000 tourists each year.

The FAA did give Spaceport Camden a license last December. If the FAA had the same concerns I doubt they would have approved the license.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=55434.msg2323486#msg2323486

This is very close to the Navy's sub base at Kings Bay. That's the base for the Atlantic Fleet ballistic missile submarines.

[rdale]

Thanks for sharing Ron - I did a search for "Camden" and that didn't show up for some reason... Strange.

In any event, I see no reference to launching over homes in those links, but do see this:

"The FAA would conduct further safety, environmental, and other reviews and analyses before making a determination on any future application from a launch vehicle operator proposing to operate from Spaceport Camden"

Are you saying that since they approved the launch site (but only 100 degrees) that overflight wouldn't be an issue?

[RonM]

Thanks for sharing Ron - I did a search for "Camden" and that didn't show up for some reason... Strange.

In any event, I see no reference to launching over homes in those links, but do see this:

"The FAA would conduct further safety, environmental, and other reviews and analyses before making a determination on any future application from a launch vehicle operator proposing to operate from Spaceport Camden"

Are you saying that since they approved the launch site (but only 100 degrees) that overflight wouldn't be an issue?

No, overflight would still need to be looked at for each launch vehicle. But it doesn't seem to be an overall deal breaker.

[Robotbeat]

Not a deal breaker at all. But those who voted thought so.

[Tomness]

Not a deal breaker at all. But those who voted thought so.

They seen what happened in Boca Chica and said nope....

[Robotbeat]

Not a deal breaker at all. But those who voted thought so.

They seen what happened in Boca Chica and said nope....

Nah, they saw what the MEDIA reported about it.

[Sam Ho]

So maybe 15% of the of-age population voted?

Hey, more for eastern Virginia!

The election results are posted on the County website.

It was a single-issue election.  16.95% of registered voters voted.  72.12% of those voted to reject the spaceport lease.

https://www.camdencountyga.gov/DocumentCenter/View/13144/03-08-2022--Election-Summary-Report-Unofficial-and-Incomplete

[Robotbeat]

Right. So most people didn’t care, but a small minority were able to mobilize opposition to it.

Hey, it is what it is. You’re not going to have a successful spaceport if the local population (or a large enough vocal minority) is poisoned against it, even if the court had sided with the spaceport. It’s Camden’s loss.

[Robotbeat]

(Although I suspect it’s not necessarily the spaceport itself but the local government funding of it that is objected to.)

[rdale]

How is it Camden’s loss? As others have noted - this is what the residents chose. In the US - we have a say in these sort of things. It sounds like their win.

[Robotbeat]

Almost a third of those who voted disagree. As do I.

That’s fine. The good paying jobs and funding can go to areas with people who will actually appreciate it.

[rdale]

I’m not sure how familiar you are with the private launch industry - but there is no demand for more launch sites. Even if they did employ  a few dozen full time  - that’s not going to contribute much to the economy.

[Jim]

Almost a third of those who voted disagree. As do I.

Which means they lost by a landslide.

[RedLineTrain]

I’m not sure how familiar you are with the private launch industry - but there is no demand for more launch sites. Even if they did employ  a few dozen full time  - that’s not going to contribute much to the economy.

I am ambivalent about this spaceport.  I don't agree that there is no demand for more launch sites.  There is demand in fits and starts, but the demand will probably be offshore and in different weight classes than provided by this spaceport.

[rdale]

You have to agree it’s a loss. Regardless of what some politicians say - more no votes than yes votes means it lost.

[Robotbeat]

I’m not sure how familiar you are with the private launch industry - but there is no demand for more launch sites. Even if they did employ  a few dozen full time  - that’s not going to contribute much to the economy.

I am ambivalent about this spaceport.  I don't agree that there is no demand for more launch sites.  There is demand in fits and starts, but the demand will probably be offshore and in different weight classes than provided by this spaceport.

(mostly to rdale)

the only non-federal “east” coast launch site in the US is in Texas, and it has major restrictions in launch trajectory, launch frequency, and is only used by a single launch provider.

Astra claims federal launch sites are 3 times the operational/fee cost per launch. For micro launchers, that’s most of the cost of the launch (~$1 million?). In other words, smallsat launchers (especially on the small end) aren’t competitive UNLESS you have a Camden-like site, and Camden is currently the only one. How many US smallsat launchers are there that are actually operational at a significant launch rate? There’s RocketLab. Who launches entirely from a non-federal launch site in New Zealand (and probably will continue most smallsat launches there for exactly the reason I mentioned: federal launch site have higher fees).

But sure, fine. Water under the bridge, now.

[Lars-J]

Almost a third of those who voted disagree. As do I.

Which means they lost by a landslide.

I don’t deny it. That doesn’t mean I have to agree it’s not a loss. Come on, a little reading comprehension wouldn’t be too hard, would it?

Looking at this thread - Robotbeat - I am at a loss why you seem to be so upset by this vote. There are plenty of spaceports, and there is plenty of capacity. Nobody needed this. Camden residents don't want it, and I doubt there is a "silent majority" out there that felt otherwise and just didn't vote... So what is there to be so up in arms about?

If there is a smallsat launch company where its business case rests on being able to launch from Camden, it was not a good business case to begin with.

[Robotbeat]

Almost a third of those who voted disagree. As do I.

Which means they lost by a landslide.

I don’t deny it. That doesn’t mean I have to agree it’s not a loss. Come on, a little reading comprehension wouldn’t be too hard, would it?

Looking at this thread - Robotbeat - I am at a loss why you seem to be so upset by this vote. There are plenty of spaceports, and there is plenty of capacity. Nobody needed this. Camden residents doesn't want it, and I doubt there is a "silent majority" out there that felt otherwise and just didn't vote... So what is there to be so up in arms about?

Really? What other non-federal orbital-class launch sites that can launch east are there?

I’m allowed to think people made a poor decision with poor information, am I not?

[Jim]

Really? What other non-federal orbital-class launch sites that can launch east are there?

Mid Atlantic Regional
Cecil
Space Coast Regional Airport

Don't see an abundance of users

[Comga]

Really? What other non-federal orbital-class launch sites that can launch east are there?

Mid Atlantic Regional
Cecil
Space Coast Regional Airport

Don't see an abundance of users

Jim’s in-depth knowledge
Had to look up Cecil Spaceport
It’s for “horizontal launch” i.e. Virgin Orbit style.
Has one potential customer
Heading directly east goes right over Jacksonville

Space Coast Regional Airport is directly west of KSC/CCSFS. 


But the point remains valid
Look at Spaceport America in New Mexico.
It’s a failure for the taxpayers in New Mexico
And they have “customers” with real hardware and financial backing


I’m a rocket enthusiast and I would have voted against it.

[darkenfast]

In 2017, Vector and Cantrell conducted their test launch in this area with a rocket that wasn't guided, didn't have the real fuel tanks, and basically rose out of camera view, only to crash in the woods. I'm sure some of the local voters remembered that stunt.

[Robotbeat]

Really? What other non-federal orbital-class launch sites that can launch east are there?

Mid Atlantic Regional
Cecil
Space Coast Regional Airport

Don't see an abundance of users

Jim’s in-depth knowledge
Had to look up Cecil Spaceport
It’s for “horizontal launch” i.e. Virgin Orbit style.
Has one potential customer
Heading directly east goes right over Jacksonville

Space Coast Regional Airport is directly west of KSC/CCSFS. 


But the point remains valid
Look at Spaceport America in New Mexico.
It’s a failure for the taxpayers in New Mexico
And they have “customers” with real hardware and financial backing


I’m a rocket enthusiast and I would have voted against it.

Fair.

[gongora]

I live in Georgia (not near Camden) and have always thought that was an odd choice of location for a spaceport.  I'd have no problem with it being canned.

[rdale]

And it's back on the plan - maybe

https://www.gpb.org/news/2022/04/13/camden-county-courts-private-investors-for-spaceport

[TrevorMonty]

Still no mention of launch providers that plan to use site.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk

[rdale]

https://georgiarecorder.com/2022/07/06/georgia-supreme-courts-spaceport-case-pits-1st-amendment-vs-county-home-rule/

[Robotbeat]

Still no mention of launch providers that plan to use site.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk

Why would there be any if the status is up in the air like this from NIMBYs?

Usually places actually beg for companies to develop in their area for jobs. If powerful NIMBYs oppose it and all the benefits it brings to the area, why get involved?

[rdale]

Part of the reason for NIMBYs in this case seems to be the way it was presented. From the getgo there never was word of users for the space port. Just hand waving with “space is the way of the future.”

[Robotbeat]

Part of the reason for NIMBYs in this case seems to be the way it was presented. From the getgo there never was word of users for the space port. Just hand waving with “space is the way of the future.”

The New Mexico spaceport did this project no favors either.

[rdale]

But that's where being one of the first is different... Being the 13th when the #6-12 aren't being used doesn't offer much advantage.

[spacenut]

Spaceports that Musk envisions for Starship are probably going to be offshore due to noise, but may be offshore from large cities. 

[Phil Stooke]

A lot of talk of NIMBYs here.  It's a big mistake to think that all opposition to a development proposal is NIMBYism.  Some people are not taken in by monorail-style hype and they have every right to be suspicious of it.  Spaceport Lust is a dangerous condition and the vaccine for it is still in development.

[dfp21]

From local media reports this looks like standard government corruption, county officials trying to give taxpayer-money to private company (Union Carbide) for worthless (contaminated industrial) property. Good deal for Union Carbide. People are awake to government corruption.

The Federal Aviation Administration granted Camden County a license Dec. 20 to build and operate what would be the nation’s 13th commercial spaceport. The FAA noted in a letter that further reviews and a separate license would be needed before the spaceport could launch rockets — and said there’s no guarantee that launches would be approved.

Weinkle said Camden County commissioners failed to convince voters that spending millions on the spaceport was a good use of taxpayer dollars. And voters were motivated to turn out to the polls as a result of the legal action commissioners took to block the special election.

“We were entitled to the referendum based on the Constitution,” he said. “The elected officials forgot they work for us. They are our servants and they need to listen to what the people want.”

[etudiant]

That seems unusually creative, dispose of a superfund site to the local government under the cover of: 'We're developing a spaceport'.
I have been puzzled as to why some people were so persistent in pushing this project despite the obvious community opposition, but perhaps the history of chemical work in the area would be enlightening.

[rdale]

It's dead.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/georgia-spaceport-land-deal-is-off-site-owner-says

[Comga]

It's dead.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/georgia-spaceport-land-deal-is-off-site-owner-says

“He’s dead, Jim!”
(How could you pass up that opportunity?)

[su27k]

Not entirely dead yet: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/georgia-county-files-suit-force-land-sale-spaceport-87562801

[rubicondsrv]

Not entirely dead yet: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/georgia-county-files-suit-force-land-sale-spaceport-87562801

This is very strange, why does the county want a spaceport with no apparent customers so badly? 
this particular spaceport project has been weird for quite some time, but this takes it to a new level of bizzare. 

[su27k]

Failure to launch: How a Georgia county spent seven years and millions of dollars to join the space race

[DeimosDream]

https://georgiarecorder.com/2022/07/06/georgia-supreme-courts-spaceport-case-pits-1st-amendment-vs-county-home-rule/

Follow up:

The Georgia Supreme Court unanimously rejected a legal challenge by Camden County commissioners who sought to have the referendum last March declared invalid.

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/vote-block-georgia-spaceport-upheld-by-states-high-court/LIHJYZTL4FGM7JDODBTG43S6QQ/

Camden spaceport seems to now be not just dead, but dead and buried.

[rdale]

Buried and confirmed dead.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/georgia-law-signed-by-gov-kemp-scraps-plans-spaceport-camden/3MHRMJKESBCBTMQZEGVGFUBE6U/

[TrevorMonty]

Good on local taxpayers for not wanting to own a White Elephant. Unfortunately for New Mexico they are stuck with theirs. Given money spent on it should be Gold Elephant.

[Mondagun]

https://georgiarecorder.com/2022/07/06/georgia-supreme-courts-spaceport-case-pits-1st-amendment-vs-county-home-rule/

Follow up:

The Georgia Supreme Court unanimously rejected a legal challenge by Camden County commissioners who sought to have the referendum last March declared invalid.

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/vote-block-georgia-spaceport-upheld-by-states-high-court/LIHJYZTL4FGM7JDODBTG43S6QQ/

Camden spaceport seems to now be not just dead, but dead and buried.

I'm not always a fan of referendums myself, but trying to nullify the outcome of a referendum after the fact (no matter how low the turnout) seems like an excellent way to eventually turn your entire constituency against you.