They are going to have to lower the price to attract the military, $60m is on par with Falcon 9.
They are going to have to lower the price to attract the military, $60m is on par with Falcon 9.
Price has nothing to do with it.
The US Congress has prohibited the launching of US National Security flights (i.e. NRO as well as USSF) on Russian-engined rockets
They are going to have to lower the price to attract the military, $60m is on par with Falcon 9.
Price has nothing to do with it.
The US Congress has prohibited the launching of US National Security flights (i.e. NRO as well as USSF) on Russian-engined rockets
Even if Antares could launch DoD payloads it wouldn't be price competitive with F9R.
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07/19/2021
Negotiations on the supply of RD-181M to the USA will allow to continue cooperation in the field of engine building
Approval by the Government of the Russian Federation of the proposal of the State Corporation "Roscosmos" to negotiate a contract with an interested customer for the supply of Russian RD-181M engines produced by the Scientific and Production Association "Energomash" named after Academician V.P. Glushko (part of the Roscosmos State Corporation) for the American company Orbital Sciences LLC will allow, despite the existing sanctions, to continue mutually beneficial cooperation between the two countries in the field of rocket propulsion. The United States receives reliable and unsurpassed rocket engines for its launch vehicles.
It should be recalled that RD-181 engines have been supplied to the United States since 2015; this is already the second export engine produced by NPO Energomash, supplied for American launch vehicles. With the help of a Russian engine, the American Antares launch vehicle delivers cargo to the International Space Station. All launches in the USA using our RD-180 and RD-181 engines have been successful.
The new RD-181M engine, for which Roscosmos has received an export permit, represents the next stage in the development of the RD-181. Its analogue RD-191M, used for Russian launch vehicles, will be installed on a manned version of the Angara-A5P heavy space rocket.
NPO Energomash partners can be sure of the quality and reliability of Russian engines. Roscosmos State Corporation and NPO Energomash confirm their reputation as a reliable supplier of high-quality high-tech products.
https://www.roscosmos.ru/31916/
Any indication NG is planning reuse of Antares or its engines? That would seem to be the most reasonable explanation for this move. If this was motivated by improving performance, replacing Castor 30 with a liquid stage would be the more obvious path forward (not just for raw payload mass to orbit, but with a restartable engine increasing the range of orbit geometries they can reach).
Especially since RD-181 as-is is already overpowered for Antares. The original plan was an "Antares 300" with a stretched core stage to make better use of its higher thrust than NK-33, but they decided instead to just strengthen the core and keep it the same size (which reduced gravity losses, but still means the new core has an even worse mass fraction than the original. Not great). Further engine upgrades make no sense here, unless they can be justified through cost reduction (and if RD-181M is still expendable, any plausible marginal cost improvement is unlikely to cover the very high dev cost), or unless they take place after all other upgrade options have been exhausted. But if Antares goes reusable, that could make a new engine desireable (RD-181 is likely possible to refurbish as-is, but was never designed to make that process easy).
My guess is Northrop is finally starting to realize how uncompetitive their launch offerings are, and is looking for a way to fix that while taking advantage of what they have on hand. Minotaur and Pegasus are more expensive than an F9 for a tiny fraction the payload, with no plausible path to cost or performance improvements. Omega lost badly in NSSLP and never got any commercial or NASA demand to keep it afloat, probably because it was the most expensive, least capable, and riskiest bid. Antares has still never gotten a non-Cygnus contract, and its value proposition relative to the rest of the market gets worse every day.
An upgraded Antares core with a reusable (SMART-style) engine section should cut 20-30 million off the cost of a launch, and be pretty straightforward to develop compared to other reuse options. Coupling that with a new hydrolox second stage (since Omega's was already partially developed, might as well use that) would more than offset any performance reduction, allow more complex insertions, and likely would have no real impact to cost (Castor 30XL supposedly costs about as much as a Centaur III, and Omega's liquid stage probably would have cost less than that). And all of these changes would give them experience they can apply to a clean-sheet next-generation vehicle (which solids do not)
Any indication NG is planning reuse of Antares or its engines? That would seem to be the most reasonable explanation for this move. If this was motivated by improving performance, replacing Castor 30 with a liquid stage would be the more obvious path forward (not just for raw payload mass to orbit, but with a restartable engine increasing the range of orbit geometries they can reach).
Especially since RD-181 as-is is already overpowered for Antares. The original plan was an "Antares 300" with a stretched core stage to make better use of its higher thrust than NK-33, but they decided instead to just strengthen the core and keep it the same size (which reduced gravity losses, but still means the new core has an even worse mass fraction than the original. Not great). Further engine upgrades make no sense here, unless they can be justified through cost reduction (and if RD-181M is still expendable, any plausible marginal cost improvement is unlikely to cover the very high dev cost), or unless they take place after all other upgrade options have been exhausted. But if Antares goes reusable, that could make a new engine desireable (RD-181 is likely possible to refurbish as-is, but was never designed to make that process easy).
My guess is Northrop is finally starting to realize how uncompetitive their launch offerings are, and is looking for a way to fix that while taking advantage of what they have on hand. Minotaur and Pegasus are more expensive than an F9 for a tiny fraction the payload, with no plausible path to cost or performance improvements. Omega lost badly in NSSLP and never got any commercial or NASA demand to keep it afloat, probably because it was the most expensive, least capable, and riskiest bid. Antares has still never gotten a non-Cygnus contract, and its value proposition relative to the rest of the market gets worse every day.
An upgraded Antares core with a reusable (SMART-style) engine section should cut 20-30 million off the cost of a launch, and be pretty straightforward to develop compared to other reuse options. Coupling that with a new hydrolox second stage (since Omega's was already partially developed, might as well use that) would more than offset any performance reduction, allow more complex insertions, and likely would have no real impact to cost (Castor 30XL supposedly costs about as much as a Centaur III, and Omega's liquid stage probably would have cost less than that). And all of these changes would give them experience they can apply to a clean-sheet next-generation vehicle (which solids do not)
Other way around. NPO Energomash is retiring all of the older Ukraine connected engine models to do this customers have to accept the new engine models being offered. Ketolox booster/core stage models being retired are RD-151, RD-170, RD-171, RD-171M, RD-180, RD-181, and RD-191. These are now succeeded by RD-151M, RD-171MV, RD-180M, RD-181M and RD-191M. Further successor versions in development or proposed for projects are RD-151MV, RD-180MV, RD-181MV, and RD-191MV.
Any indication NG is planning reuse of Antares or its engines? That would seem to be the most reasonable explanation for this move. If this was motivated by improving performance, replacing Castor 30 with a liquid stage would be the more obvious path forward (not just for raw payload mass to orbit, but with a restartable engine increasing the range of orbit geometries they can reach).
Especially since RD-181 as-is is already overpowered for Antares. The original plan was an "Antares 300" with a stretched core stage to make better use of its higher thrust than NK-33, but they decided instead to just strengthen the core and keep it the same size (which reduced gravity losses, but still means the new core has an even worse mass fraction than the original. Not great). Further engine upgrades make no sense here, unless they can be justified through cost reduction (and if RD-181M is still expendable, any plausible marginal cost improvement is unlikely to cover the very high dev cost), or unless they take place after all other upgrade options have been exhausted. But if Antares goes reusable, that could make a new engine desireable (RD-181 is likely possible to refurbish as-is, but was never designed to make that process easy).
My guess is Northrop is finally starting to realize how uncompetitive their launch offerings are, and is looking for a way to fix that while taking advantage of what they have on hand. Minotaur and Pegasus are more expensive than an F9 for a tiny fraction the payload, with no plausible path to cost or performance improvements. Omega lost badly in NSSLP and never got any commercial or NASA demand to keep it afloat, probably because it was the most expensive, least capable, and riskiest bid. Antares has still never gotten a non-Cygnus contract, and its value proposition relative to the rest of the market gets worse every day.
An upgraded Antares core with a reusable (SMART-style) engine section should cut 20-30 million off the cost of a launch, and be pretty straightforward to develop compared to other reuse options. Coupling that with a new hydrolox second stage (since Omega's was already partially developed, might as well use that) would more than offset any performance reduction, allow more complex insertions, and likely would have no real impact to cost (Castor 30XL supposedly costs about as much as a Centaur III, and Omega's liquid stage probably would have cost less than that). And all of these changes would give them experience they can apply to a clean-sheet next-generation vehicle (which solids do not)
They are still up against F9R, tough LV to be price competitive with. RD181 means no competiting for DoD missions.
With SMART and RL10 US they might be able to pickup constellation launch contracts for likes of Amazon's Kuiper.
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They are going to have to lower the price to attract the military, $60m is on par with Falcon 9.
Price has nothing to do with it.
The US Congress has prohibited the launching of US National Security flights (i.e. NRO as well as USSF) on Russian-engined rockets
Should be banned for ALL flights originating from North America. North America needs to get the Russian hardware out of its spaceflight.
They are going to have to lower the price to attract the military, $60m is on par with Falcon 9.
Price has nothing to do with it.
The US Congress has prohibited the launching of US National Security flights (i.e. NRO as well as USSF) on Russian-engined rockets
Should be banned for ALL flights originating from North America. North America needs to get the Russian hardware out of its spaceflight.
The policy section is a great section to find a thread to voice this. Let's not turn this into one.
RD-180
Does this mean that Atlas V will need to change engines as well? Or only if more are ordered?
Any indication NG is planning reuse of Antares or its engines? That would seem to be the most reasonable explanation for this move. If this was motivated by improving performance, replacing Castor 30 with a liquid stage would be the more obvious path forward (not just for raw payload mass to orbit, but with a restartable engine increasing the range of orbit geometries they can reach).
Why would they change the 2nd stage? It is the only part actually built by NG... If reuse is being considered, changing the 2nd stage is way down on the list of priorities.
RD-180
Does this mean that Atlas V will need to change engines as well? Or only if more are ordered?
Can still use Atlas for civil (NASA) and commercial but not DOD missions. They are replacing RD180 with BE4 and calling LV Vulcan.
Current Atlas will fly in parallel to Vulcan but eventually be retired.
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RD-180
Does this mean that Atlas V will need to change engines as well? Or only if more are ordered?
Can still use Atlas for civil (NASA) and commercial but not DOD missions. They are replacing RD180 with BE4 and calling LV Vulcan.
Current Atlas will fly in parallel to Vulcan but eventually be retired.
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Right, my question is if Atlas V will need to switch to RD-180M engines if more are ordered for commercial missions (in case of further Vulcan delays, etc.)
RD-180
Does this mean that Atlas V will need to change engines as well? Or only if more are ordered?
ULA have currently ordered and received their final contracted batch of RD-180's though an option remains for more. Any new ones after expiration of the contractual agreement via RD-AMROSS would be the new version purchased by ULA directly from NPO Energomash as the assembly line has been updated during development of the new engine.
RD-180
Does this mean that Atlas V will need to change engines as well? Or only if more are ordered?
Can still use Atlas for civil (NASA) and commercial but not DOD missions. They are replacing RD180 with BE4 and calling LV Vulcan.
Current Atlas will fly in parallel to Vulcan but eventually be retired.
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Right, my question is if Atlas V will need to switch to RD-180M engines if more are ordered for commercial missions (in case of further Vulcan delays, etc.)
ULA can keep buying engines and flying Atlas indefinitely. Have about 30 engines on hand with 9 allocated to Kuiper missions. Wouldn't be surprised if Amazon order more to help meet their 2026 deadline for deploying half constellation.
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