Author Topic: Investment in space companies  (Read 44637 times)

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #60 on: 05/28/2022 10:12 am »
Report covers 2021 which was great year for startups. .
2022 maybe lot different given sharemarket drops especially with space companies that went public with SPAC over last year. Money going to be lot hard to come by for new startups.

https://twitter.com/BryceSpaceTech/status/1529859663939915777?t=3zjVs0SgS1RBIOxiwvMjIw&s=19


« Last Edit: 05/28/2022 10:22 am by TrevorMonty »

Offline su27k

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Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #61 on: 05/28/2022 03:41 pm »
https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1530536030536749057

Quote
I read and listened to space companies' Q1 reports, so you don't have to!

Summaries of:
$AJRD
$ASTS
$ASTR
$BKSY
$IRDM
$MAXR
$MNTS
$MYNA
$RDW
$RKLB
$SATL
$SPIR
$TSAT
$LLAP
$VSAT
$SPCE
$VORB

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/28/space-company-q1-results-performance-during-supply-chain-disruptions.html


Offline su27k

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Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #62 on: 06/24/2022 01:15 am »
https://twitter.com/anton_brevde/status/1539658721412149250

Quote
🧵I believe 2023 will be the year that the New Space bubble pops. It will mark the end of New Space 1.0 and lead to a new generation of New Space startups that will emerge from the rubble — New Space 2.0.

1/n



The New Space era began in 2002 with the founding of SpaceX. Their ability to drive down launch costs has been the biggest enabler in the development of New Space: the ecosystem of hundreds of space startups founded over the past 20 years



I’m a big believer in the long-term New Space economy but, my view on the immediate opportunity set has evolved dramatically over the past 18 months as record-breaking levels of capital have flowed into New Space.



The glut of inbound capital has exacerbated the core systemic risk within New Space — the overfunding of startups with highly speculative business models at unsustainable valuations.



My thinking here is heavily influenced by a story I heard back in 2013 from the founder of Y-Combinator, @paulg, about how he foresaw the pending dot-com collapse while working at Yahoo.



“History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes,” and I think there are parallels to draw here about the systemic risk of a new sector driven by new entrants selling primarily to other new entrants



As it relates to New Space, not all companies are made equal from a customer perspective. The simple system we use internally buckets New Space startups into three categories based on the market they are pursuing: Space for Earth, Space for Space, and Beyond Earth.



Space for Space and Beyond Earth are most at risk as they are generally pursuing markets that don’t exist yet and their customers are primarily New Space companies. This creates a circular dependency between startups that makes them vulnerable to a chain reaction of failures.



The long fuse that will ultimately “pop this bubble” was lit by the departure of many growth-stage investors (Series B and larger) who are licking their wounds from massive valuation write-downs of their public positions and increasing interest rates.



A record $15.4 billion was invested in New Space startups in 2021. Most startups raise for at least 18 months of runway so I think it’ll take until next year before the first wave of early-stage New Space startups are forced to go out to market and fail to raise new capital.



The proceeding shutdowns and acquihires will represent the end of the first era of space startups — the end of New Space 1.0.



I believe this type of financial correction plays an important cleansing function in markets: the strongest businesses will survive and then thrive as a result of the decreased competition for capital and employees.



The future described here is not one of total destruction but one of bifurcated outcomes — the haves and the have-nots will diverge massively. And the winners that emerge will represent a new era — New Space 2.0.



These companies will be defined by scrappy founders, pursuing capital-efficient business models, and credible paths to revenue. Undoubtedly the next SpaceX and PlanetLabs will be built in this upcoming period and we are excited to be their first check!

🧵end


Full article: 2023 Will Be the Year That the New Space Bubble Pops

Offline Tywin

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Offline su27k

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Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #64 on: 07/13/2022 01:35 am »
Space industry warned to prepare for impact from lurking recession

Quote from: SpaceNews
Some companies in the space industry may not survive the coming headwinds in the U.S. and global economies, United Launch Alliance CEO Tory Bruno said July 11.

“I think we’re really looking at a sea state change,” Bruno said at the Space Innovation Summit, an online event

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #65 on: 07/13/2022 02:13 am »
Space industry warned to prepare for impact from lurking recession

Quote from: SpaceNews
Some companies in the space industry may not survive the coming headwinds in the U.S. and global economies, United Launch Alliance CEO Tory Bruno said July 11.

“I think we’re really looking at a sea state change,” Bruno said at the Space Innovation Summit, an online event
For private companies that were planning on going public I think they've missed boat. Share market is going to take long time to recover.

For companies that are likely to fail there is hope of being purchased or merge with established companies. Investors will take hit but company may live on in some form or another.
« Last Edit: 07/21/2022 01:48 am by zubenelgenubi »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #66 on: 07/13/2022 02:24 am »
On plus side its good time to invest, bargin prices on a lot of shares, even for companies that should survive and do well.

Just need to pick the winners.
« Last Edit: 07/21/2022 01:48 am by zubenelgenubi »

Offline su27k

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Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #67 on: 07/15/2022 03:28 am »
Private investment in space companies dropped during Q2 despite monster SpaceX round, report finds

Quote from: CNBC
* Private investment in space companies dwindled in the second quarter.

* The sector was weighed down by broader economic and market headwinds but was salvaged in part by a funding round at Elon Musk’s SpaceX.

* Space Capital tracks 1,727 companies which have raised $264 billion in cumulative global equity investments since 2012.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #68 on: 07/31/2022 02:48 am »
No kidding. The next year will be brutal for any startups that don’t have full funding for the next few years.

Offline Tywin

Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #69 on: 08/03/2022 03:23 am »
The stocks...

The knowledge is power...Everything is connected...
The Turtle continues at a steady pace ...

Offline Tywin

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The Turtle continues at a steady pace ...

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #71 on: 08/05/2022 08:07 am »
Summary of public space companies their future in these uncertain economic times.

https://caseclosed.substack.com/p/winter-is-herewhich-space-spacs-will
« Last Edit: 08/05/2022 09:20 am by zubenelgenubi »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #72 on: 08/12/2022 07:51 am »
Unearthly Invest has good summary of Redwire.


« Last Edit: 08/12/2022 08:20 am by zubenelgenubi »

Offline su27k

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Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #73 on: 08/14/2022 04:39 am »
Paywalled though:

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1558449435188858881

Quote
The SPAC boom hit a wall as risk appetite evaporated, and most space companies that went public are down 40% to 85% over the past year.

My deep dive for @CNBCPro on value, opportunity, and danger for investors:

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #74 on: 08/14/2022 07:29 pm »
The share price drops aren't unexpected with bear market. Its the high risk shares that will take biggest hit while investors will hold onto low risk shares like Amazon as their business is sound and price will bounce back eventully.
« Last Edit: 08/17/2022 08:32 am by zubenelgenubi »

Offline M.E.T.

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Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #75 on: 08/15/2022 04:19 am »
The question is simple:  For a new launch company, how many launches are required to recover the initial investment?

Thought experiment addressing the above:

If you invest $1B to get your first rocket to orbit, what is the expected profit per launch? In the new low cost launch market built by SpaceX, $10M profit per launch for any small to medium lift launcher seems highly ambitious, probably flat out unlikely.

But even at $10M, that means 100 launches just to recover the initial investment. If it’s just $5M, that means 200 launches.

How long is that likely to take from first making orbit? 10 years? And that’s without accounting for continued R&D to stay competitive with the still innovating market leader.

In this context, how does any new launch company make sense as a business case?

« Last Edit: 08/15/2022 04:26 am by M.E.T. »

Offline playadelmars

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Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #76 on: 08/15/2022 04:26 am »
Investors don’t think this way, though that sounds counterintuitive. They care about % ownership of a specific valuation, that they want to see go higher. Valuation initially is more made up on some combo of projected revenues and future profits, but with revenue and profits per launch normal industry multiples start to matter. For tech startup, it’s based on revenue growth usually, then profit later. This is how you get companies like Tesla and Rivian that have raised astronomical amount of capital vs anything in rocket land, but at the time they brought such capital in they had less maturity. Launch market size is still several billion per year, so future revenue and profits have potential to be high

Offline M.E.T.

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Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #77 on: 08/15/2022 04:40 am »
Investors don’t think this way, though that sounds counterintuitive. They care about % ownership of a specific valuation, that they want to see go higher. Valuation initially is more made up on some combo of projected revenues and future profits, but with revenue and profits per launch normal industry multiples start to matter. For tech startup, it’s based on revenue growth usually, then profit later. This is how you get companies like Tesla and Rivian that have raised astronomical amount of capital vs anything in rocket land, but at the time they brought such capital in they had less maturity. Launch market size is still several billion per year, so future revenue and profits have potential to be high

Disagree. Valuation is based on expected future profits - in the case of Tesla the valuation absolutely is based on an expectation of tremendous future profits to more than make up for cumulative historic investments (in fact, Tesla has already brought in more cumulative net cash than was ever invested in it - I think that milestone was reached this year, in fact).

The point being, the insane space Spac valuations were based on the same expectations - hence the ridiculous projections of hundreds of launches per year by small launchers like Astra, Virgin Galactic etc which were eagerly swallowed by the apparently ignorant (if we are being charitable) investment advisors, but have since proven to be utterly unrealistic. Hence the massive drop in valuations since then.

Future market share means nothing if it does not have realistic prospects of translating into cash returns that warrant the valuation, and in the case of sky high valuations, the future net cash flow needs to be equally sky high.

Remove that basic reality from the equation, and all you are left with are psychological reasons for continued investment - such as the allure of investing in “space”, because of what SpaceX has achieved. And that is irrational, because it is SpaceX’s very success which is killing the cash flow potential of their would be Spac competitors.

SpaceX launching 60 rockets this year is not an indicator that Relativity or Rocketlab will be able to launch 30 per year. No, it simply means that SpaceX can now spread their fixed costs over even more launches and thus bring down their launch cost even more, making it HARDER for Relativity or Rocketlab to break even, let alone generate net profits.
« Last Edit: 08/15/2022 04:44 am by M.E.T. »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #78 on: 08/15/2022 04:58 am »
Biggest boost to commercial launch market 2020s has been Kuiper. It remains to be seen if other constellations of similar size launch. Suspect some are waiting on more lower cost RLVs to bring launch cost down before starting deployment.

There are potential markets that hopefully will open up, inorbit manufacturing and commercial space stations. We are just starting to see dedicated missions for in orbit manufacturing Varda and Redwire are two examples. These are low cost pilot missions to test market and refine their technology, again need low cost RLVs to expand market.

It's a gamble buying into launch company at present as these markets may not eventuate, its happen before with Teladesic and the like in 90s. Satellites, launch and groundstations are lot cheaper now and likely to keep falling in price so out come is lot more optimistic but it only take Kessler syndrome on large scale to kill market.


Offline heavylift

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Re: Investment in space companies
« Reply #79 on: 08/15/2022 05:04 am »
The question is simple:  For a new launch company, how many launches are required to recover the initial investment?

Thought experiment addressing the above:

If you invest $1B to get your first rocket to orbit, what is the expected profit per launch? In the new low cost launch market built by SpaceX, $10M profit per launch for any small to medium lift launcher seems highly ambitious, probably flat out unlikely.

But even at $10M, that means 100 launches just to recover the initial investment. If it’s just $5M, that means 200 launches.

How long is that likely to take from first making orbit? 10 years? And that’s without accounting for continued R&D to stay competitive with the still innovating market leader.

In this context, how does any new launch company make sense as a business case?

Agree with what you're saying, but I disagree with your numbers, and the numbers make all the difference.

$1B to get your first rocket to orbit is a lot, and way more than I would say anyone has put into doing so. I forget the numbers but SpaceX spent at most ~200 million to put F1 into orbit, and other medium-lift companies are doing around the same. That changes your math to needing only 20 launches. I think the $10M figure is on the high end of what's possible, but I don't think it's unreasonable. Probably $6-10M is the right range on margin.

But covering the investment isn't the goal. It actually isn't too relevant. For any company that's honest and has some dignity, the goal is to produce more than you take. Profit more than you spend. At that point, what matters is just what the yearly overhead is. That's where we really see things take shape -- the companies succeeding with the fewest people, the fewest facilities, the fewest locations, and the fewest exotic R&D development, are the ones that'll come out on top in this respect. Relativity, with a dozen locations, a hyper-exotic capital sinkhole of 3D printing, 1000 people on payroll, and hundreds of thousand of square feet of real estate, is an example of being in a bad position. There are others in a pretty favorable position.

If you assume a company has 500 people that make an average of $70,000 that's $35M. Assume that for the rest of the year, all other expenses (leases, facilities, operations, etc) are another $65M. That's $100M/yr. At that rate, with a $10M margin, it just takes 10 launches to go red. At that point, you've taken the mantle of being the most successful company in the entire industry - look at Astra and VG sweating ~$60-70M/qtr while launching nothing. It's a shockingly low bar that few are meeting, but is a reasonable bar.

It's like playing a game of Limbo where the stick is at the highest rung and you just gotta bend back a bit, but you choose to walk into it fully standing up.

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