Author Topic: SpaceX Starship : First Flight : Starbase, TX : 20 April 2023 - DISCUSSION (Read 532642 times)

sferrin · « **Reply #800 on:** 04/13/2023 01:22 pm »

https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1646484466481651715

envy887 · « **Reply #801 on:** 04/13/2023 01:31 pm »

Quote from: InterestedEngineer on 04/13/2023 04:45 am

Is there anything preventing a foreign ship from entering those waters?

No, but other than observing the EDL sequence (which they could just as easily do from outside the area) there's nothing useful to be gained from going there. They can't legally recover and keep a foreign spacecraft.

Bob Shaw · « **Reply #802 on:** 04/13/2023 02:29 pm »

Starship isn’t a nationally-owned vehicle, but is a private one. Do the rules re salvage apply as with ships it it falls in the sea? IIRC SpaceX claimed ownership of a fairing which washed ashore as debris in the English Channel a few years ago (pre recovery efforts).

eriblo · « **Reply #803 on:** 04/13/2023 02:39 pm »

Quote from: Bob Shaw on 04/13/2023 02:29 pm

Starship isn’t a nationally-owned vehicle, but is a private one. Do the rules re salvage apply as with ships it it falls in the sea? IIRC SpaceX claimed ownership of a fairing which washed ashore as debris in the English Channel a few years ago (pre recovery efforts).

Maritime salvage laws do not apply to space hardware. It remains the property and responsibility of whomever launched it.

launchwatcher · « **Reply #804 on:** 04/13/2023 02:44 pm »

Quote from: Bob Shaw on 04/13/2023 02:29 pm

Starship isn’t a nationally-owned vehicle, but is a private one. Do the rules re salvage apply as with ships it it falls in the sea? IIRC SpaceX claimed ownership of a fairing which washed ashore as debris in the English Channel a few years ago (pre recovery efforts).

See Articles VI and VIII of the outer space treaty, which doesn't make a distinction between nationally-owned and privately owned objects. As I read it, anything launched by an entity under US jurisdiction remains under US jurisdiction and if recovered by another party to the treaty must be returned to the US.

Quote

Article VI

States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty. The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty. ... (text about international missions trimmed) ...

Article VIII

A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched into outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over such object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on a celestial body. Ownership of objects launched into outer space, including objects landed or constructed on a celestial body, and of their component parts, is not affected by their presence in outer space or on a celestial body or by their return to the Earth. Such objects or component parts found beyond the limits of the State Party to the Treaty on whose registry they are carried shall be returned to that State Party, which shall, upon request, furnish identifying data prior to their return.

Vahe231991 · « **Reply #805 on:** 04/13/2023 05:05 pm »

Quote from: Bob Shaw on 04/13/2023 02:29 pm

Starship isn’t a nationally-owned vehicle, but is a private one. Do the rules re salvage apply as with ships it it falls in the sea? IIRC SpaceX claimed ownership of a fairing which washed ashore as debris in the English Channel a few years ago (pre recovery efforts).

Let's hope that if the Starship upper stage falls into the sea after completing one orbit and re-entering the earth's atmosphere the Chinese don't get their hands on the Starship stage and reverse-engineer it to create a huge Starship-like reusable spacecraft to be potentially used for military purposes.

philw1776 · « **Reply #806 on:** 04/13/2023 05:22 pm »

Quote from: Vahe231991 on 04/13/2023 05:05 pm

Quote from: Bob Shaw on 04/13/2023 02:29 pm
Starship isn’t a nationally-owned vehicle, but is a private one. Do the rules re salvage apply as with ships it it falls in the sea? IIRC SpaceX claimed ownership of a fairing which washed ashore as debris in the English Channel a few years ago (pre recovery efforts).
Let's hope that if the Starship upper stage falls into the sea after completing one orbit and re-entering the earth's atmosphere the Chinese don't get their hands on the Starship stage and reverse-engineer it to create a huge Starship-like reusable spacecraft to be potentially used for military purposes.

Day 0 of the Cetian space program as whales steal raptor tech to jump start their effort

JamesH65 · « **Reply #807 on:** 04/13/2023 05:54 pm »

Quote from: Vahe231991 on 04/13/2023 05:05 pm

Quote from: Bob Shaw on 04/13/2023 02:29 pm
Starship isn’t a nationally-owned vehicle, but is a private one. Do the rules re salvage apply as with ships it it falls in the sea? IIRC SpaceX claimed ownership of a fairing which washed ashore as debris in the English Channel a few years ago (pre recovery efforts).
Let's hope that if the Starship upper stage falls into the sea after completing one orbit and re-entering the earth's atmosphere the Chinese don't get their hands on the Starship stage and reverse-engineer it to create a huge Starship-like reusable spacecraft to be potentially used for military purposes.

The Chinese are quite capable of doing all this off their own back. No need to reverse engineer, although that might make things faster. Which would only be the engines anyway, and the secret sauce in there is, I suspect, a lot in software (timing etc).

sebk · « **Reply #808 on:** 04/13/2023 05:59 pm »

Quote from: RcTeller on 04/13/2023 05:52 pm

Could this be poopy news?

$SPCE news FAA shoots down launch of SpaceX Starship, IBD reports

https://www.investors.com/news/technology/spacex-faa-blows-out-candle-on-company-starship/

The article contains some utter nonsense, confusing PEA which concluded last year (in May, indeed) with launch license. The author clearly has no clue what he's talking about.

2megs · « **Reply #809 on:** 04/13/2023 06:04 pm »

From updates thread:

Quote from: RcTeller on 04/13/2023 05:52 pm

Could this be poopy news?

$SPCE news FAA shoots down launch of SpaceX Starship, IBD reports

https://www.investors.com/news/technology/spacex-faa-blows-out-candle-on-company-starship/

Has Investors Business Daily, in the past, been a good source of inside scoops about SpaceX or the FAA, before other sources had covered it?

If not (and I'm pretty sure they haven't been), I wouldn't give that much importance unless you start hearing the same elsewhere.

In the next week we can expect a lot of low-quality "journalists" trying to turn the rising interest in Starship into clickbait. Please let's not treat it as an UPDATE! every time their content mills churn out some more pulp.

TheRadicalModerate · « **Reply #810 on:** 04/13/2023 07:09 pm »

Quote from: sebk on 04/13/2023 05:59 pm

Quote from: RcTeller on 04/13/2023 05:52 pm
Could this be poopy news?

$SPCE news FAA shoots down launch of SpaceX Starship, IBD reports

https://www.investors.com/news/technology/spacex-faa-blows-out-candle-on-company-starship/

The article contains some utter nonsense, confusing PEA which concluded last year (in May, indeed) with launch license. The author clearly has no clue what he's talking about.

Sounds a lot like GPT-3 might have written this and failed to notice that the FAA environmental review delays were all from 2022.

Alberto-Girardi · « **Reply #811 on:** 04/13/2023 07:38 pm »

Can someone offer an opinion regarding the launch time? Is it usual to launch exactly at the start of the window?
IIRC Falcon Heavy test flight was late into the window because they had problems with weather, can we extrapolate something from there on how spacex handles this kind of things?

Anyway even if they launch exaclty at the start I wouldn't miss it (in Italy it will be 2 pm at 1200Z), but I would miss the fueling due to school.

alugobi · « **Reply #812 on:** 04/13/2023 07:51 pm »

With a mature rocket like the F9, with no other constraints, it will almost always launch on the minute. With a prototype, not so likely. Expect scrubs and holds while they tune the system.

ChrisC · « **Reply #813 on:** 04/13/2023 08:12 pm »

Quote from: StevenOBrien on 04/13/2023 07:21 pm

(road closure notice from Cameron County)
https://www.cameroncountytx.gov/order-closing-boca-chica-beach-and-state-hwy-4-april-17-2023-with-alternative-date-of-april-18-2023-or-april-19-2023-2/

The notice quotes "C.S.T." times, not "Central" or "CT". It's one thing to hear average yahoos make this mistake, but official sources? Sad trombone

(See my sig below. And get off my lawn!)

peregrinus · « **Reply #814 on:** 04/13/2023 08:30 pm »

Quote from: uhuznaa on 04/12/2023 06:50 pm

Quote from: StevenOBrien on 04/12/2023 05:38 pm
"For the first flight test, the team will not attempt a vertical landing of Starship"

https://www.spacex.com/launches/mission/?missionId=starship-flight-test

Also the graphic on this page shows the booster basically doing the boost back burn in the wrong direction.

I might be wrong, but just curious. How is the boost back burn illustrated in the wrong direction? Isn't the burn pointing in the correct direction to remove horizontal velocity? https://sxcontent9668.azureedge.us/cms-assets/assets/SPACEX_STARSHIP_INFOGRAPHIC_041223_web_096b650bff.png

whitelancer64 · « **Reply #815 on:** 04/13/2023 09:07 pm »

Quote from: peregrinus on 04/13/2023 08:30 pm

Quote from: uhuznaa on 04/12/2023 06:50 pm
Quote from: StevenOBrien on 04/12/2023 05:38 pm
"For the first flight test, the team will not attempt a vertical landing of Starship"

https://www.spacex.com/launches/mission/?missionId=starship-flight-test

Also the graphic on this page shows the booster basically doing the boost back burn in the wrong direction.

I might be wrong, but just curious. How is the boost back burn illustrated in the wrong direction? Isn't the burn pointing in the correct direction to remove horizontal velocity? https://sxcontent9668.azureedge.us/cms-assets/assets/SPACEX_STARSHIP_INFOGRAPHIC_041223_web_096b650bff.png

The image has been corrected. The original had the flamey end on the wrong side of the booster.

MoodyBlues · « **Reply #816 on:** 04/13/2023 09:57 pm »

Quote from: ChrisC on 04/13/2023 08:12 pm

Quote from: StevenOBrien on 04/13/2023 07:21 pm
(road closure notice from Cameron County)
https://www.cameroncountytx.gov/order-closing-boca-chica-beach-and-state-hwy-4-april-17-2023-with-alternative-date-of-april-18-2023-or-april-19-2023-2/

The notice quotes "C.S.T." times, not "Central" or "CT". It's one thing to hear average yahoos make this mistake, but official sources? Sad trombone (See my sig below. And get off my lawn!)

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zones/cst

maybe you're on the wrong lawn...

sdsds · « **Reply #817 on:** 04/13/2023 10:05 pm »

Quote from: whitelancer64 on 04/13/2023 09:07 pm

Quote from: peregrinus on 04/13/2023 08:30 pm
[...]. How is the boost back burn illustrated in the wrong direction? Isn't the burn pointing in the correct direction to remove horizontal velocity? https://sxcontent9668.azureedge.us/cms-assets/assets/SPACEX_STARSHIP_INFOGRAPHIC_041223_web_096b650bff.png

The image has been corrected. The original had the flamey end on the wrong side of the booster.

Roger that: flamey end now looks good!

Is there information/discussion about how many engines will/would be used for the boost back burn?

kessdawg · « **Reply #818 on:** 04/13/2023 10:06 pm »

Please don't put discussion in the updates thread...

pedz · « **Reply #819 on:** 04/13/2023 10:37 pm »

I just booked a place in Port Isabel for two nights in an area Google Maps calls "Long Island". It borders the ship channel so I should be able to just walk out and watch the launch.

I plan to have two cameras. I sure wish I could get closer than the 6+ miles. The rocket is more than half the view finder with a 500mm lens but the haze is going to produce less than spectacular images and footage. We'll see how it goes.

One question: The FAA advisory is for 1200Z. That is Zulu -- right? or GMT / UTC? Which translates into 7 a.m. local time. Am I doing all that right?

I assume there will not be any real published launch time by SpaceX. ?