SpaceX Starship : First Flight : Starbase, TX : 20 April 2023 - DISCUSSION

[xvel]

You might want to take a look at the 19,000 or so comments submitted by the public on the PEA. A large number of them were form letters submitted by Sierra Club members opposing launch operations on environmental grounds.

Weren't they all the same? That's called spam in my dictionary, they proved back then that they are a joke, they have no real arguments so they can't stop it, but they can delay it using legal means.

[DanClemmensen]

You might want to take a look at the 19,000 or so comments submitted by the public on the PEA. A large number of them were form letters submitted by Sierra Club members opposing launch operations on environmental grounds.

Weren't they all the same? That's called spam in my dictionary, they proved back then that they are a joke, they have no real arguments so they can't stop it, but they can delay it using legal means.

This specific type of spam is usually called "astroturfing". Not all of the comments were these form letters: some were a lot more thoughtful. Not all of the comments were driven by Sierra Club, either. There was at least one other environmental group and probably quite a few unaffiliated environmentalists. However, none of those other folks are likely to be organized enough to file a lawsuit.  I hope that any judge that sees such a suit will use the results of the PEA as a basis to refuse to issue a preliminary injunction. There were legitimate environmental concerns, and they were carefully considered and addressed.

[RDMM2081]

Did anyone else think that this morning's lift/stack of S24 was one of their "sloppiest" in a long time?  It feels (no data) like they have been progressing towards faster and smoother stacking ops for months now.  I think the B7 lift was barely an hour, but today we are at 5+ hours for the S24 lift, they took it up, then down, removed some rope thing, then lifted again, stacked, lifted again, rotated, and finally it looks like they are about to detach, but only after multiple attempts.  I'm not suggesting doom or gloom, more likely just some bad luck, but even so if this is close to the "worst case" for stacking cadence of a ship at ~5 hours, I like where the test campaign is at.

[xvel]

Yeah, doesn't look promising :/

[Lee Jay]

There were legitimate environmental concerns, and they were carefully considered and addressed.

How do we know that they were addressed?  We know they were mentioned in the document, but I haven't seen anything on them being addressed.

[chopsticks]

There were legitimate environmental concerns, and they were carefully considered and addressed.

How do we know that they were addressed?  We know they were mentioned in the document, but I haven't seen anything on them being addressed.

The fact that a mitigated FONSI was issued would imply that they have been addressed but not all taken care of. A launch license would indicate that they have worked through any remaining issues as I understand it.

[Robotbeat]

Yeah in some ways the super painful PEA process helps prevent minor annoyances from blocking the launch as basically every conceivable objection was already considered, and these lawsuits to slow down a project primarily succeed just because something wasn’t studied yet.

(Then again, the long PEA process also helped spin up a whole bunch of people to be against the launch. A lower profile PEA would have posed less risk.)

[DanClemmensen]

There were legitimate environmental concerns, and they were carefully considered and addressed.

How do we know that they were addressed?  We know they were mentioned in the document, but I haven't seen anything on them being addressed.

The PEA was written by SpaceX. It laid out the mitigations that SpaceX proposed to do. I do not know that they have actually done them, but do not think they would propose things that they did not intend to carry out.

[joncz]

https://twitter.com/thePrimalSpace/status/1643656486667550738

[Robotbeat]

There were legitimate environmental concerns, and they were carefully considered and addressed.

How do we know that they were addressed?  We know they were mentioned in the document, but I haven't seen anything on them being addressed.

The fact that a mitigated FONSI was issued would imply that they have been addressed but not all taken care of. A launch license would indicate that they have worked through any remaining issues as I understand it.

Yup. And the funny thing about US environmental review is that you don’t actually have to eliminate negative environmental effects. You just have to STUDY them and have sufficient paperwork. (And likewise, it doesn’t matter if the environmental effects are zero or are otherwise mitigated if there isn’t enough studying/paperwork.) Really kind of messed up, a worship of process over actual results.

It’s why fossil fuel companies can extract as much fossil fuel as they want regardless of climate consequences as long as the paperwork is done, and yet renewable energy projects can be blocked by Koch funded groups who sue on the basis of not enough studying done…

[Herb Schaltegger]

Having done some (non-aerospace) regulatory legal work in the past, one thing that stands out to me as a possibility is a suit on the grounds that SpaceX has not actually performed some of the mitigations called for in the Mitigated FONSI, or not completed them satisfactorily. Assuming such a suit survives initial procedural challenges to filing, a properly-crafted suit might require an evidentiary hearing, in which case a judge might or might not grant a preliminary injunction.

[craiglv2]

Who would ever approve a rocket launch site at a wildlife refuge?  Oh, I almost forgot that Cape Canaveral has shared the Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge for 70 years.

[Robotbeat]

Who would ever approve a rocket launch site at a wildlife refuge?  Oh, I almost forgot that Cape Canaveral has shared the Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge for 70 years.

fr, I hear that kind of objection to Boca Chica all the time and it’s abundantly clear that the vast majority of such people have virtually no background knowledge on spacelaunch and just jumped on this recently. (Unfortunately, you’ll also have some people who really ought to know better boost those takes.)

[wannamoonbase]

Who would ever approve a rocket launch site at a wildlife refuge?  Oh, I almost forgot that Cape Canaveral has shared the Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge for 70 years.

Keep in mind that CCSFB and KSC had several communities on them before they were taken over and rolled into the wildlife refuge.

It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the need for the large unpopulated areas.

I lived and worked there for 2.5 years, never should have left.  Despite the oppressive summers it's a magical place for the rockets and wildlife. 

Maybe Boca Chica could benefit from this in a similar way. 

[Herb Schaltegger]

Who would ever approve a rocket launch site at a wildlife refuge?  Oh, I almost forgot that Cape Canaveral has shared the Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge for 70 years.

That's why just claiming some kind of "environmental" basis for any putative legal action is specious. My suggestion above is the kind of specific and focused approach someone would have to take if they want to challenge a lawfully-granted license; they would have to argue with some degree of particularity that there was a flaw in the licensing process or - more likely - that one of the preconditions for grant of a license was not met. Failing to meet one of the environmental mitigations promised in the finding of Mitigated FONSI could be such a basis.

[mrhuggy]

Who would ever approve a rocket launch site at a wildlife refuge?  Oh, I almost forgot that Cape Canaveral has shared the Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge for 70 years.

Keep in mind that CCSFB and KSC had several communities on them before they were taken over and rolled into the wildlife refuge.

It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the need for the large unpopulated areas.

I lived and worked there for 2.5 years, never should have left.  Despite the oppressive summers it's a magical place for the rockets and wildlife. 

Maybe Boca Chica could benefit from this in a similar way.

I remember watching a small documentary about the wildlife refuge and about the people who lived there and had to leave. One of the person in it actually grew up there before his family was moved out, he later went into orbit with NASA and now runs NASA, Bill Nelson.

[wannamoonbase]

Who would ever approve a rocket launch site at a wildlife refuge?  Oh, I almost forgot that Cape Canaveral has shared the Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge for 70 years.

Keep in mind that CCSFB and KSC had several communities on them before they were taken over and rolled into the wildlife refuge.

It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the need for the large unpopulated areas.

I lived and worked there for 2.5 years, never should have left.  Despite the oppressive summers it's a magical place for the rockets and wildlife. 

Maybe Boca Chica could benefit from this in a similar way.

I remember watching a small documentary about the wildlife refuge and about the people who lived there and had to leave. One of the person in it actually grew up there before his family was moved out, he later went into orbit with NASA and now runs NASA, Bill Nelson.

Great story, I didn't know that one.

I use to roam around on my lunch hours and follow some of the old roads to where the trailers were located.  That was all Pre 9/11 and afterward it felt like less of a good idea to randomly wonder around a military installation.

Dodging the gators warming themselves on the road is a great memory, as is the 8 foot diamond back rattle snake crossing the road.  Epic place.

[sferrin]

Eric Berger says:

The real risk I have heard about is a last-minute civil lawsuit. In this scenario, the FAA issues the license and a civil suit is immediately filed for environmental reasons. It is possible a judge would issue a temporary injunction.

So who is behind this possible lawsuit?   I'd guess either Boca Chica locals, or one of SpX's competitors trying to harm their efforts.   Anyone know more?

Ross.

I would expect it's neither, but an outside environmental group. If it happens.

And if you follow the money. . . 

So? Have you? Followed the money, that is? What does your financial research and investigation reveal? Or is this some kind of conspiratorial shadow-chasing?

Bit of a knee-jerk don't you think?  How, exactly, would I follow the money of something that hasn't happened yet? 

[Lee Jay]

Who would ever approve a rocket launch site at a wildlife refuge?  Oh, I almost forgot that Cape Canaveral has shared the Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge for 70 years.

That's why just claiming some kind of "environmental" basis for any putative legal action is specious. My suggestion above is the kind of specific and focused approach someone would have to take if they want to challenge a lawfully-granted license; they would have to argue with some degree of particularity that there was a flaw in the licensing process or - more likely - that one of the preconditions for grant of a license was not met. Failing to meet one of the environmental mitigations promised in the finding of Mitigated FONSI could be such a basis.

That's what they would have to argue to win, not to file.  To file, they need nothing but the filing fee and paperwork.  To get an injunction, they need more but not as much as they'd need to win.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/cosmicalchief/status/1643712775221391365

Hoppy has got just about the best seat in the house for the upcoming launch. I think he will get to witness quite a bit of history on the making.
#Starbase #Starship #SpaceX
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Maybe some camera adjustment getting ready for launch?