Phantom Space

[Hug]

Update from Mars Society Convention and article
Have raised 4 mil in funding, stage testing towards end of next year for a flight in early 2023. "Now, Cantrell says his new firm has raised enough money to build four demonstration rockets that it will launch by 2023" https://qz.com/emails/space-business/2076849/
Target price of 4mil with payload capacity of 450kg should be competitive, just gotta see whether they can get there. See's Astra as main competitor. It would be surreal to see a company start the way they did get a rocket onto pad.

[brussell]

Chris Thompson formerly, from SpaceX, Virgin and Astra, has joined Phantom Space.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/spacex-virgin--astras-chris-thompson-continues-his-space-race-journey-joining--phantom-space-corporation-as-chief-technology-officer-a-game-changer-for-the-future-of-the-space-industry-301405047.html

TUCSON, Ariz., Oct. 21, 2021 /PRNewswire/ -- Phantom Space Corporation, the space transportation technology development and manufacturing company, today announced the hiring of Chris Thompson, one of the space industry's most sought after space engineers and executives. Chris will serve as Chief Technology Officer, where he is responsible for the company's direct development and oversight of launch vehicles and satellites including the Daytona rocket, which the company aims to start flying in 2023. Phantom currently has satellite programs underway and will be commencing stage level testing of its Daytona launch vehicle in early 2022.

[trimeta]

As mentioned over in this thread, NASA has created a new launch services program, Venture-Class Acquisition of Dedicated and Rideshare (VADR) missions, and awarded 12 companies the right to bid for future contracts that fall under this program. Notably, Phantom Space was one of those companies. For everyone else on that list, inclusion was to be expected, but what does it say about Phantom Space that NASA seems to be taking them more seriously than Aevum, SpinLaunch, Launcher, etc.?

[Craftyatom]

For everyone else on that list, inclusion was to be expected, but what does it say about Phantom Space that NASA seems to be taking them more seriously than Aevum, SpinLaunch, Launcher, etc.?

Well, either they know something we don't, or we know something they don't.  Time will tell.

[JEF_300]

For everyone else on that list, inclusion was to be expected, but what does it say about Phantom Space that NASA seems to be taking them more seriously than Aevum, SpinLaunch, Launcher, etc.?

Well, either they know something we don't, or we know something they don't.  Time will tell.

I'd tend to assume that NASA knows more than we do.

And perhaps we haven't been giving Phantom a fair shake. Ursa Major is doing (or really, has already done) all the engine development for them. That right there is 90+% of the difficulty of developing a smallsat launcher.

I wonder if their website has gotten any better since the last time I looked.

...

Oh my god. https://www.phantomspace.com/daytona-rocket

Dramatically better. It's night and day (in some ways literally; the old one was a blinding white, and this one is dark). I even have a ton of number to regurgitate onto here, although most of these numbers are also present in the video in Hug's post above.

Daytona (that's their rocket's name)
HEIGHT: 18.7 m / 61.4 ft
DIAMETER: 1.25 m / 4.1 ft
MASS: 13,436 kg / 29,559 lb
PAYLOAD:
        LEO: 450 kg / 992 lb
       GTO: 160 kg / 353 lb
    MOON: 50 kg / 110 lb
 VOLUME: 2.8 m x 1.25 m

First Stage:
HEIGHT: 12.1 m / 39.7 ft
DIAMETER: 1.25 m / 4.1 ft
ENGINE: 7 Hadley engines
PROPELLANT: RP1/LOX
THRUST: 155 kN / 35000 lbf
TYPICAL BURN: 160s - 190s

Second Stage:
HEIGHT: 6.6 m / 21.7 ft
DIAMETER: 1.25 m / 4.1 ft
ENGINE: 1 vacuum optimized Hadley engine
PROPELLANT: RP1/LOX
THRUST: 26.7 kN / 6000 lbf
TYPICAL BURN: 480s to 520s

Engine:
PROPELLANT: LOX / RP-1
SL THRUST: 22.2 kN / 5000 lbf
VACUUM THRUST: 26.7 kN / 6000 lbf
SPECIFIC IMPULSE: 302s

[JEF_300]

They also have plans for a follow-up semi-reusable vehicle called Laguna: https://www.phantomspace.com/laguna-rocket

Summary; 2 meter diameter, 3 Ursa Major Ripley's on the first stage, still just one vacuum Hadley on the upper stage, 1200 kg to LEO, and propulsive landing using the most ridiculous legs I've ever seen.

[briantipton]

They also have plans for a follow-up semi-reusable vehicle called Laguna: https://www.phantomspace.com/laguna-rocket

Summary; 2 meter diameter, 3 Ursa Major Ripley's on the first stage, still just one vacuum Hadley on the upper stage, 1200 kg to LEO, and propulsive landing using the most ridiculous legs I've ever seen.

Interesting that Phantom Space thinks the Ripley thrust is 35k lbs but the Ursa Major lists it as 50k lbs. My first thought was just a typo on the Laguna page, but if 50k lbs was right, the Laguna would have an unusually high T/W. Daytona has an rather low T/W,  but it is expendable and Elon has taught us that higher reusable optimizes at higher T/W, so maybe 50k lbs is right and it's a typo on the Laguna page. The other possibility is that Ursa Major is resizing Ripley and hasn't updated their site yet, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that.

Either way, propulsive landing with a 3 engine first stage is going to be a neat trick. I am picturing a MAJOR hover slam & power slide...

[TrevorMonty]

They also have plans for a follow-up semi-reusable vehicle called Laguna: https://www.phantomspace.com/laguna-rocket

Summary; 2 meter diameter, 3 Ursa Major Ripley's on the first stage, still just one vacuum Hadley on the upper stage, 1200 kg to LEO, and propulsive landing using the most ridiculous legs I've ever seen.

Interesting that Phantom Space thinks the Ripley thrust is 35k lbs but the Ursa Major lists it as 50k lbs. My first thought was just a typo on the Laguna page, but if 50k lbs was right, the Laguna would have an unusually high T/W. Daytona has an rather low T/W,  but it is expendable and Elon has taught us that higher reusable optimizes at higherT/W, so maybe 50k lbs is right and it's a typo on the Laguna page. The other possibility is that Ursa Major is resizing Ripley and hasn't updated their site yet, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that.

Either way, propulsive landing with a 3 engine first stage is going to be a neat trick. I am picturing a MAJOR hover slam & power slide...

As comparsion Firefly Alpha is 1000kg expendable with 165klbs thrust.
The Laguna 1200kg is likely to be expendable and 3x50klbs engines.

What is recovery plan?. For this class RLV RTLS isn't realistic which means downrange landing on barge. Mid air recovery might be possible.



Sent from my SM-T733 using Tapatalk

[JEF_300]

They also have plans for a follow-up semi-reusable vehicle called Laguna: https://www.phantomspace.com/laguna-rocket

Summary; 2 meter diameter, 3 Ursa Major Ripley's on the first stage, still just one vacuum Hadley on the upper stage, 1200 kg to LEO, and propulsive landing using the most ridiculous legs I've ever seen.

Interesting that Phantom Space thinks the Ripley thrust is 35k lbs but the Ursa Major lists it as 50k lbs. My first thought was just a typo on the Laguna page, but if 50k lbs was right, the Laguna would have an unusually high T/W. Daytona has an rather low T/W,  but it is expendable and Elon has taught us that higher reusable optimizes at higherT/W, so maybe 50k lbs is right and it's a typo on the Laguna page. The other possibility is that Ursa Major is resizing Ripley and hasn't updated their site yet, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that.

Either way, propulsive landing with a 3 engine first stage is going to be a neat trick. I am picturing a MAJOR hover slam & power slide...

As comparsion Firefly Alpha is 1000kg expendable with 165klbs thrust.
The Laguna 1200kg is likely to be expendable and 3x50klbs engines.

What is recovery plan?. For this class RLV RTLS isn't realistic which means downrange landing on barge. Mid air recovery might be possible.



Sent from my SM-T733 using Tapatalk

"The first stage also features aerodynamic control flaps and dynamic hydraulic landing legs, allowing the first stage to land even on rough terrain."

The fact that they think rough terrain could even maybe be a concern suggests that this will not be landing on a barge.

[niwax]

They also have plans for a follow-up semi-reusable vehicle called Laguna: https://www.phantomspace.com/laguna-rocket

Summary; 2 meter diameter, 3 Ursa Major Ripley's on the first stage, still just one vacuum Hadley on the upper stage, 1200 kg to LEO, and propulsive landing using the most ridiculous legs I've ever seen.

Interesting that Phantom Space thinks the Ripley thrust is 35k lbs but the Ursa Major lists it as 50k lbs. My first thought was just a typo on the Laguna page, but if 50k lbs was right, the Laguna would have an unusually high T/W. Daytona has an rather low T/W,  but it is expendable and Elon has taught us that higher reusable optimizes at higherT/W, so maybe 50k lbs is right and it's a typo on the Laguna page. The other possibility is that Ursa Major is resizing Ripley and hasn't updated their site yet, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that.

Either way, propulsive landing with a 3 engine first stage is going to be a neat trick. I am picturing a MAJOR hover slam & power slide...

As comparsion Firefly Alpha is 1000kg expendable with 165klbs thrust.
The Laguna 1200kg is likely to be expendable and 3x50klbs engines.

What is recovery plan?. For this class RLV RTLS isn't realistic which means downrange landing on barge. Mid air recovery might be possible.



Sent from my SM-T733 using Tapatalk

"The first stage also features aerodynamic control flaps and dynamic hydraulic landing legs, allowing the first stage to land even on rough terrain."

The fact that they think rough terrain could even maybe be a concern suggests that this will not be landing on a barge.

Makes it sound more like some random Cantrell marketing claim more like. There is no reason for an Earth-based first stage to ever land on rough terrain, but it sounds cool.

See also the inconsistent thrust numbers, the faked pictures and the fact that the first big action they took with their investment was to transfer most of it into Cantrells personal wealth by buying his consulting company.

[TrevorMonty]

They also have plans for a follow-up semi-reusable vehicle called Laguna: https://www.phantomspace.com/laguna-rocket

Summary; 2 meter diameter, 3 Ursa Major Ripley's on the first stage, still just one vacuum Hadley on the upper stage, 1200 kg to LEO, and propulsive landing using the most ridiculous legs I've ever seen.

Interesting that Phantom Space thinks the Ripley thrust is 35k lbs but the Ursa Major lists it as 50k lbs. My first thought was just a typo on the Laguna page, but if 50k lbs was right, the Laguna would have an unusually high T/W. Daytona has an rather low T/W,  but it is expendable and Elon has taught us that higher reusable optimizes at higherT/W, so maybe 50k lbs is right and it's a typo on the Laguna page. The other possibility is that Ursa Major is resizing Ripley and hasn't updated their site yet, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that.

Either way, propulsive landing with a 3 engine first stage is going to be a neat trick. I am picturing a MAJOR hover slam & power slide...

As comparsion Firefly Alpha is 1000kg expendable with 165klbs thrust.
The Laguna 1200kg is likely to be expendable and 3x50klbs engines.

What is recovery plan?. For this class RLV RTLS isn't realistic which means downrange landing on barge. Mid air recovery might be possible.



Sent from my SM-T733 using Tapatalk

"The first stage also features aerodynamic control flaps and dynamic hydraulic landing legs, allowing the first stage to land even on rough terrain."

The fact that they think rough terrain could even maybe be a concern suggests that this will not be landing on a barge.

Makes it sound more like some random Cantrell marketing claim more like. There is no reason for an Earth-based first stage to ever land on rough terrain, but it sounds cool.

See also the inconsistent thrust numbers, the faked pictures and the fact that the first big action they took with their investment was to transfer most of it into Cantrells personal wealth by buying his consulting company.

When comes to the investors and their money "buyer beware" especially where Cantrell is concerned.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk

[gmbnz]

Daytona (that's their rocket's name)
HEIGHT: 18.7 m / 61.4 ft
DIAMETER: 1.25 m / 4.1 ft
MASS: 13,436 kg / 29,559 lb
PAYLOAD:
        LEO: 450 kg / 992 lb

<snip>

Engine:
PROPELLANT: LOX / RP-1
SL THRUST: 22.2 kN / 5000 lbf
VACUUM THRUST: 26.7 kN / 6000 lbf
SPECIFIC IMPULSE: 302s

Snipping a few of the other specs out, but I couldn't help but notice that it is incredibly similar to the Electron, which is also 18m tall, is 1.2m diameter, has a liftoff mass of 13t, and very similar engine thrusts (although higher engine isp).
And yet the Electron can only lift 300kg to LEO, compared to the Daytona's 450kg. That's 50% more for essentially the same vehicle design. And yes, definitions of LEO can differ between companies, but 50% is a such huge difference in performance I can't see it being that.
Either Phantom are missing something, or Rocket Lab are missing something... perhaps time will tell which it is!

[TrevorMonty]

They also have plans for a follow-up semi-reusable vehicle called Laguna: https://www.phantomspace.com/laguna-rocket

Summary; 2 meter diameter, 3 Ursa Major Ripley's on the first stage, still just one vacuum Hadley on the upper stage, 1200 kg to LEO, and propulsive landing using the most ridiculous legs I've ever seen.

Interesting that Phantom Space thinks the Ripley thrust is 35k lbs but the Ursa Major lists it as 50k lbs. My first thought was just a typo on the Laguna page, but if 50k lbs was right, the Laguna would have an unusually high T/W. Daytona has an rather low T/W,  but it is expendable and Elon has taught us that higher reusable optimizes at higherT/W, so maybe 50k lbs is right and it's a typo on the Laguna page. The other possibility is that Ursa Major is resizing Ripley and hasn't updated their site yet, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that.

Either way, propulsive landing with a 3 engine first stage is going to be a neat trick. I am picturing a MAJOR hover slam & power slide...

As comparsion Firefly Alpha is 1000kg expendable with 165klbs thrust.
The Laguna 1200kg is likely to be expendable and 3x50klbs engines.

What is recovery plan?. For this class RLV RTLS isn't realistic which means downrange landing on barge. Mid air recovery might be possible.



Sent from my SM-T733 using Tapatalk

"The first stage also features aerodynamic control flaps and dynamic hydraulic landing legs, allowing the first stage to land even on rough terrain."

The fact that they think rough terrain could even maybe be a concern suggests that this will not be landing on a barge.

Makes it sound more like some random Cantrell marketing claim more like. There is no reason for an Earth-based first stage to ever land on rough terrain, but it sounds cool.

See also the inconsistent thrust numbers, the faked pictures and the fact that the first big action they took with their investment was to transfer most of it into Cantrells personal wealth by buying his consulting company.

When comes to the investors and their money "buyer beware" especially where Cantrell is concerned.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk

Strategic Space Development was consultancy, don't see any advantage in purchase except to line Cantrell's pockets.
If they built satellites or their components it might make some sense.

Hope Ursa are receiving upfront payments for anything they build for Phantom.


Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk

[ringsider]

In other news, summonses are being issued:-

https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/42938910/Hurwitz_v_Cantrell_et_al

[Bananas_on_Mars]

Daytona (that's their rocket's name)
HEIGHT: 18.7 m / 61.4 ft
DIAMETER: 1.25 m / 4.1 ft
MASS: 13,436 kg / 29,559 lb
PAYLOAD:
        LEO: 450 kg / 992 lb

&lt;snip&gt;

Engine:
PROPELLANT: LOX / RP-1
SL THRUST: 22.2 kN / 5000 lbf
VACUUM THRUST: 26.7 kN / 6000 lbf
SPECIFIC IMPULSE: 302s

Snipping a few of the other specs out, but I couldn't help but notice that it is incredibly similar to the Electron, which is also 18m tall, is 1.2m diameter, has a liftoff mass of 13t, and very similar engine thrusts (although higher engine isp).
And yet the Electron can only lift 300kg to LEO, compared to the Daytona's 450kg. That's 50% more for essentially the same vehicle design. And yes, definitions of LEO can differ between companies, but 50% is a such huge difference in performance I can't see it being that.
Either Phantom are missing something, or Rocket Lab are missing something... perhaps time will tell which it is!

IIRC Jim Cantrell was part of the diligence team for at least one of Rocketlabs financing rounds. I think shortly before the creation of Vector.

[Zed_Noir]

Daytona (that's their rocket's name)
HEIGHT: 18.7 m / 61.4 ft
DIAMETER: 1.25 m / 4.1 ft
MASS: 13,436 kg / 29,559 lb
PAYLOAD:
        LEO: 450 kg / 992 lb

&lt;snip&gt;

Engine:
PROPELLANT: LOX / RP-1
SL THRUST: 22.2 kN / 5000 lbf
VACUUM THRUST: 26.7 kN / 6000 lbf
SPECIFIC IMPULSE: 302s

Snipping a few of the other specs out, but I couldn't help but notice that it is incredibly similar to the Electron, which is also 18m tall, is 1.2m diameter, has a liftoff mass of 13t, and very similar engine thrusts (although higher engine isp).
And yet the Electron can only lift 300kg to LEO, compared to the Daytona's 450kg. That's 50% more for essentially the same vehicle design. And yes, definitions of LEO can differ between companies, but 50% is a such huge difference in performance I can't see it being that.
Either Phantom are missing something, or Rocket Lab are missing something... perhaps time will tell which it is!

Maybe the difference between the mass of the electrical drive train and batteries in the Electron as compare to propulsion system on the Daytona gives the latter better thrust to weight ratio.

[ParabolicSnark]

Release on PR News Wire

Under the terms of the agreement, Ursa Major will supply hundreds of its Hadley engines in different configurations including ground test and upper-stage vacuum variants, as well as numerous Ripley engines for planned upgrades to the Daytona vehicle.

Phantom will use the 5,000-lbf Hadley and the 50,000-lbf Ripley in launch configurations optimized for cost, performance, time-to-market, and reliability. The first iteration of Daytona will have nine Hadley engines for its first stage and a single Hadley for its upper stage. An upgraded Daytona will debut in 2024 using a single Ripley engine on the first stage with a Hadley engine for the upper stage. The larger Laguna rocket, set for 2025, will be powered by a combination of Ripley and Hadley engines to increase the mass performance of the vehicle.

Debuting in 2023...even with procured engines, I'm skeptical that they can hit that. With what's been released by them, I'd be skeptical of anything prior to 2025.

A larger rocket with different engines and an entirely different tank size and presumably launch infrastructure is also laughable to occur within 2 years from first launch.

[trimeta]

Cross-post from the "Countdown to new smallsat launchers" thread:

Good update on Phantom Aerospace.

http://parabolicarc.com/2022/08/25/having-it-all-come-together-but-not-in-house-phantom-spaces-approach-to-launch/

[niwax]

Cross-post from the "Countdown to new smallsat launchers" thread:

Good update on Phantom Aerospace.

http://parabolicarc.com/2022/08/25/having-it-all-come-together-but-not-in-house-phantom-spaces-approach-to-launch/

Isn't this just the last Cantrell scam, Mk II?

1. Show off already existing components made by someone else
2. Raise money
3. Run

[TrevorMonty]

Cross-post from the "Countdown to new smallsat launchers" thread:

Good update on Phantom Aerospace.

http://parabolicarc.com/2022/08/25/having-it-all-come-together-but-not-in-house-phantom-spaces-approach-to-launch/

Isn't this just the last Cantrell scam, Mk II?

1. Show off already existing components made by someone else
2. Raise money
3. Run

Not going argue that point, his record to date isn't good. On plus side plenty jobs out there for staff if this one goes belly up.