Author Topic: Phantom Space  (Read 13158 times)

Phantom Space
« on: 03/31/2021 06:10 pm »
This just came up in the Ursa Major Tech. thread because they plan to use Ursa Major engines, and I couldn't find a dedicated thread no matter what I searched. So yes, this is another smallsat launch vehicle. I've tried to pick out the relevant information.

They say they'll be using the Ursa Major Hadley engine. One on the upper stage, seven on the first stage. They'll apparently also be using, "...qualified NASA AVA avionics and software housed on traditional aluminum monocoque construction." An image also says they'll be using common bulkheads. 450 kg into a "low inclination orbit" and 370 kg to a polar orbit.

Oh, and here's a fun claim:
Quote
The Daytona is designed to be our workhorse launch system and is the only launcher designed from the ground-up to be mass produced.

There's also a whole paragraph on this page that is written twice.

Here's that page, with everything I've said about this vehicle: https://www.phantomspace.com/launch-services

I find the super late 90s awful night launch render really funny when compared with the much more modern looking and useful exploded view. Honestly, half the reason I bother to make this thread is cause I wanted to see if anyone could come up with an explanation for the golden interstage besides, "it's just a render", which obviously is probably the real answer.



« Last Edit: 10/22/2021 03:37 pm by gongora »
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #1 on: 03/31/2021 06:31 pm »
They are starting with flight ready engine and avionics which should reduced capital and time needed for development.


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Offline Davidthefat

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #2 on: 03/31/2021 06:33 pm »
They are starting with flight ready engine and avionics which should reduced capital and time needed for development.


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They have to consider how many customers Ursa has and how fast they can get the engines. The per engine cost of the Ursa engines can't compete with an in-house engine if they really are going for mass production.

Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #3 on: 03/31/2021 06:48 pm »
One does not simply take COTS avionics and say they are qualified for RCC-319 and 324 to operate on the government ranges.
 
I am curious to see how much faster it would be for them to not develop their own engines though. Also will be interesting if they try to build their GSE on site or ship it in containers like Astra and ABL.

They are starting with flight ready engine and avionics which should reduced capital and time needed for development.


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Offline trimeta

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #4 on: 03/31/2021 07:45 pm »
I find the super late 90s awful night launch render really funny...

Hey, at least they admitted it was a render, rather than lying about it. Although, since they uploaded the white-with-gold-interstage render before the render they lied about, that doesn't suggest a great trajectory.

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1351203481076555781

That said, the render they lied about shows a black first stage, so who knows what's going on with this vehicle.

Edit: Directly adding in Eric's screencap of their original tweet with the misleading render.

« Last Edit: 03/31/2021 07:47 pm by trimeta »

Offline Davidthefat

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #5 on: 03/31/2021 08:18 pm »
I find the super late 90s awful night launch render really funny...




Looking at it again, it doesn't even look like the booster will fit inside of the trailer. It looks too long to fit. What did Jim bring to the table engineering wise at Vector or even SpaceX in the beginning? AFAIK, most of Vector's HW was Garvey's and he's at Virgin now.

Offline trimeta

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #6 on: 03/31/2021 08:38 pm »
Looking at it again, it doesn't even look like the booster will fit inside of the trailer. It looks too long to fit.

They didn't photoshop the trailer to be bigger when replacing the Orion LAS solid motor with their much larger first stage, so yeah, it wouldn't fit.

Offline rubicondsrv

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #7 on: 04/01/2021 01:28 am »
The choice of 5083 aluminum has some interesting implications for construction.  this is likely what they are meaning by the claim "only launcher designed from the ground-up to be mass produced" 

5083 is readily weldable with electric arc welding methods unlike 2024 and 7075.   it is quite a bit weaker than those alloys and even a bit lower yield than 6061-t6, but produces stronger welds than 6061 if no post welding heat treatment is used. 




Offline HMXHMX

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #8 on: 04/01/2021 04:45 am »
The choice of 5083 aluminum has some interesting implications for construction.  this is likely what they are meaning by the claim "only launcher designed from the ground-up to be mass produced" 

5083 is readily weldable with electric arc welding methods unlike 2024 and 7075.   it is quite a bit weaker than those alloys and even a bit lower yield than 6061-t6, but produces stronger welds than 6061 if no post welding heat treatment is used. 





I've used 5000 series alloys in propellant tanks with great success.  It's strong enough, ductile, corrosion-resistant and very weldable plus the welds work-harden as you acceptance test the tank.  I pretty much baselined it for every tank I have built in the past thirty-plus years.

Offline trimeta

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #9 on: 04/14/2021 03:48 pm »
Phantom Space claims they've raised $5 million in seed investment funding. That press release contains some "interesting" claims, such as a planned first launch in Q1 2023, and that relying on other companies (they use Ursa Major Technologies engines) will somehow enable them to ramp up to "hundreds" of launches per year better than companies doing everything in-house.

They also seem to have updated the renderings on their website: to address the questions people had in this thread previously, they've switched entirely to the black-with-silver-trim model first seen in their misleading photoshop job, entirely abandoning the white-with-gold-interstage version they used to have.

Edit: Oh, I hadn't noticed, their updated website includes mention of a partially-reusable slightly-larger Laguna rocket. I'd make comparisons with Rocket Lab's Neutron (and honestly, they probably intend the reader to make such comparisons), but the Laguna is still in the one-ton class (think Firefly/ABL/Relativity/Isar/RFA), so not really. Perhaps the most interesting thing about the Laguna is it's supposed to use Ripley engines on its first stage. This is the first I've heard of an actual planned rocket with the Ripley; other than this, everyone just wants to use the Hadley.
« Last Edit: 04/14/2021 04:02 pm by trimeta »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #10 on: 04/14/2021 04:45 pm »
Phantom Space claims they've raised $5 million in seed investment funding. That press release contains some "interesting" claims, such as a planned first launch in Q1 2023, and that relying on other companies (they use Ursa Major Technologies engines) will somehow enable them to ramp up to "hundreds" of launches per year better than companies doing everything in-house.

They also seem to have updated the renderings on their website: to address the questions people had in this thread previously, they've switched entirely to the black-with-silver-trim model first seen in their misleading photoshop job, entirely abandoning the white-with-gold-interstage version they used to have.

Edit: Oh, I hadn't noticed, their updated website includes mention of a partially-reusable slightly-larger Laguna rocket. I'd make comparisons with Rocket Lab's Neutron (and honestly, they probably intend the reader to make such comparisons), but the Laguna is still in the one-ton class (think Firefly/ABL/Relativity/Isar/RFA), so not really. Perhaps the most interesting thing about the Laguna is it's supposed to use Ripley engines on its first stage. This is the first I've heard of an actual planned rocket with the Ripley; other than this, everyone just wants to use the Hadley.
Laguna uses 3xRipley and has landing legs which implies propulsive landing instead of MAR. Ripley will need deep throttling or they've a couple of Hadley's for landing. Payload is 1200kg with mission price of $8M.

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Offline Pueo

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #11 on: 04/14/2021 05:47 pm »
I find the super late 90s awful night launch render really funny when compared with the much more modern looking and useful exploded view. Honestly, half the reason I bother to make this thread is cause I wanted to see if anyone could come up with an explanation for the golden interstage besides, "it's just a render", which obviously is probably the real answer.
If I was inclined to be charitable, I would say that the interstages are also made of aluminium and they intend to anodize the structure for corrosion resistance, with the tanks being covered with white insulation so we don't see the anodized aluminum surface.  You can certainly get that gold color with anodized aluminum, though if we ever see a mockup of the vehicle (my charitability has limits) it will probably look more bronze like the Atlas V tank.

Or it's just a render and they really liked the white with gold accents look of the Orion LAS in the photo they doctored.
Could I interest you in some clean burning sub-cooled propalox and propalox accessories?
Forget drinking ethanol meant for rocket fuel, prop∆ne is the eutectic fuel mixture you can huff!

Offline ringsider

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #12 on: 06/19/2021 08:02 pm »
Phantom has acquired StratSpace:

https://techcrunch.com/2021/05/25/phantom-space-acquires-stratspace-in-pursuit-of-becoming-a-turnkey-space-service/

Wasn't StratSpace Jimmy Cantrell's own space strategy company?
« Last Edit: 06/19/2021 08:22 pm by ringsider »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #13 on: 09/11/2021 08:19 pm »
https://twitter.com/phantomspaceinc/status/1436785399729319939

Quote
Mechanical qualification unit of a customer satellite being built at Phantom. We currently have 3 satellite contracts underway.

Offline Jrcraft

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #14 on: 09/13/2021 04:37 pm »
https://twitter.com/phantomspaceinc/status/1436785399729319939

Quote
Mechanical qualification unit of a customer satellite being built at Phantom. We currently have 3 satellite contracts underway.

It's being supported by two reams of Boise x9 copy paper.

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #15 on: 09/13/2021 07:21 pm »
It's being supported by two reams of Boise x9 copy paper.

Iím guessing in the contract they are referred to as  encapsulated multilayer all-purpose isolation legs? EMAIL for those who prefer the acronym.

Online edzieba

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #16 on: 09/17/2021 05:52 pm »
It's being supported by two reams of Boise x9 copy paper.

Iím guessing in the contract they are referred to as  encapsulated multilayer all-purpose isolation legs? EMAIL for those who prefer the acronym.
Fibre-composite shim-stock, used in many industries for precision levelling (no joke, disassemble an older camera and you may well find small slivers of paper used to align the face of the lens mount into precise parallel with the film plane).

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #17 on: 09/29/2021 08:41 pm »
John Deere subsidiary Ingenu signs deal with Phantom Space to launch 72 satellite constellation supporting Industrial Internet of Things.

"The majority of the satellites are expected to launch on Phantom's Daytona launch vehicle in late 2023."

 https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/phantom-space-john-deere-ingenu-72-satellite-constellation
« Last Edit: 09/30/2021 03:52 am by gongora »

Offline su27k

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #18 on: 09/30/2021 02:52 am »

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Phantom Space
« Reply #19 on: 09/30/2021 03:16 am »
Maybe break out Ingenu as a constellation company in the Commercial Space section? Apparently the article above was edited to indicate that Ingenu isn't a subsidiary...

https://www.ingenu.com/


Gonna be real curious about this. Vehicle telematics is a big thing. So is John Deere famously locking down their tractor firmware.

For something similar, Kubota has been gathering vehicle telematics for construction vehicles via cellular modem for a long time now.
« Last Edit: 09/30/2021 03:21 am by Asteroza »

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