European nations want to build a 6 billion-euro ($7.3 billion) alternative to Elon Musk’s Starlink network so the region isn’t left behind in the race to develop satellite broadband.European Union officials signed off on a study for a low-earth orbit constellation similar to Starlink that would offer secure government communications and bring internet to isolated communities, French newspaper Les Echos reported, citing unnamed people in the bloc’s Commission.The EU could make an announcement about a satellite constellation on Thursday, a person familiar with the matter told Bloomberg, without giving further details.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-16/europe-wants-its-own-alternative-to-elon-musk-s-starlink-networkQuoteEuropean nations want to build a 6 billion-euro ($7.3 billion) alternative to Elon Musk’s Starlink network so the region isn’t left behind in the race to develop satellite broadband.European Union officials signed off on a study for a low-earth orbit constellation similar to Starlink that would offer secure government communications and bring internet to isolated communities, French newspaper Les Echos reported, citing unnamed people in the bloc’s Commission.The EU could make an announcement about a satellite constellation on Thursday, a person familiar with the matter told Bloomberg, without giving further details.
This is disappointing. Starlink is inherently global and could serve Europe extremely well.
It’s just a study.
Internet for isolated communities? In Europe?We are 3 times more densly populated than the USA.Please don't waste my money on that and better spend that money on rolling out Fibre optics faster
Quote from: NosFi on 12/17/2020 07:31 amInternet for isolated communities? In Europe?We are 3 times more densly populated than the USA.Please don't waste my money on that and better spend that money on rolling out Fibre optics fasterDon't assume average density = density everywhere. Europe has large, thinly populated areas in e.g. Sweden, Norway, Finland, Spain, France. Isolated communities on a large number of small islands.
Quote from: su27k on 12/17/2020 02:33 amhttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-16/europe-wants-its-own-alternative-to-elon-musk-s-starlink-networkQuoteEuropean nations want to build a 6 billion-euro ($7.3 billion) alternative to Elon Musk’s Starlink network so the region isn’t left behind in the race to develop satellite broadband.European Union officials signed off on a study for a low-earth orbit constellation similar to Starlink that would offer secure government communications and bring internet to isolated communities, French newspaper Les Echos reported, citing unnamed people in the bloc’s Commission.The EU could make an announcement about a satellite constellation on Thursday, a person familiar with the matter told Bloomberg, without giving further details.7 billion is low cost? There's no way that SpaceX will have invested anywhere near that amount, IMHO, before the system and its growth are self funding, and shortly thereafter, starts throwing off vast sums of cash while still growing. No government program can do that.
Quote from: freddo411 on 12/17/2020 02:50 amThis is disappointing. Starlink is inherently global and could serve Europe extremely well.Yes, but the euros would be heading to the US instead of Europe and it would be at the whim of US political interference. The EU can easily afford its own system (its GDP is only 9% less than the US) so that it too can provide a global system that would also serve the US extremely well. :-)
I think everyone will want what Musk has got. The problem there is that it is easier said than done.
Quote from: daedalus1 on 12/17/2020 09:54 amI think everyone will want what Musk has got. The problem there is that it is easier said than done.No that’s just you assuming everyone will want what he has.
Haven't really been paying attention to Starlink and other internet constellations, but what advantage do they have over a few dedicated satellites in GEO? If the intent is to only serve far outlying communities within a relatively small area, it seems like it's a better to invest in a few big satellites than dozens/hundreds of smaller ones. Especially given the costs of launching with an Ariane (assuming EU will want EU satellites to launch with ESA assets), economically, it seems cheaper to go the GEO route. They probably can take an existing satellite bus (Like a Eurostar?) instead of developing a brand new one designed to be deployed as a constellation (low volume, high density satellites)
Hopefully that does not mean they will outlaw Starlink to make their own offering competitive. I would not be surprised by such an action.
Europe, most particularly France, is in the throes of a populist "sovereignty" psychodrama. <snip>
Quote from: Hobbes-22 on 12/17/2020 07:40 amQuote from: NosFi on 12/17/2020 07:31 amInternet for isolated communities? In Europe?We are 3 times more densly populated than the USA.Please don't waste my money on that and better spend that money on rolling out Fibre optics fasterDon't assume average density = density everywhere. Europe has large, thinly populated areas in e.g. Sweden, Norway, Finland, Spain, France. Isolated communities on a large number of small islands. Spain for example has put in place very strong, pluripartisan fiber-tending programs, including through rural or non-profitable areas, that make its data ground infrastructure the most developed in Europe (more FTTH than France, Italy, Germany and UK combined, at 80.4% of connected homes, the perspective to reach >90% in one year's time, and 100% including rural communities in 2025), one of the best in the world - in spite of the large swaths of territory that are sparsely populated and the off-mainland archipielagos. It would be against its interests and investments to strongly support maintenance-intenstive, non-resilient megaconstellations instead of the more robust ground technology it has become a forefront player on. 'Of course, if Spain can do this, most mid-sized countries with a reasonably large economy can too.A good review (in Spanish): https://www.xataka.com/otros/estado-conexion-fibra-espana-2020-cobertura-actual-planes-operadoras-para-proximos-anos
And you just can't have too many mega-constellations.
Is wanting something because the neighbors have it the way things are now? Maybe be motivated by what your populace needs and not by the need to prove something.
Quote from: Nomadd on 12/17/2020 03:36 pm Is wanting something because the neighbors have it the way things are now? Maybe be motivated by what your populace needs and not by the need to prove something. That's a funny thing to say on a spaceflight forum.Looking forward to ESA astronomers complaining about European megaconstellations corrupting their data, and bad communication when satellites are on a collision course
I was referring to strong anti-megaconstellation feelings that are apparently quite widespread among ESA-astronomers according to a friend of a friend there, and ESA's very public calling out of SpaceX not being responsive when ESA had to move one of their satellites to avoid a collision with a SpaceX satellite.
Quote from: high road on 12/18/2020 09:55 amI was referring to strong anti-megaconstellation feelings that are apparently quite widespread among ESA-astronomers according to a friend of a friend there, and ESA's very public calling out of SpaceX not being responsive when ESA had to move one of their satellites to avoid a collision with a SpaceX satellite. To be fair, it is not just European and ESA astronomers who have strong anti-megaconstellation feelings. Some of the most vocal opponents are among USA astronomers.
and ESA's very public calling out of SpaceX not being responsive when ESA had to move one of their satellites to avoid a collision with a SpaceX satellite.
Contact with Starlink early in the process allowed ESA to take conflict-free action later, knowing the second spacecraft would remain where models expected it to be. [...] “No one was at fault here, but this example does show the urgent need for proper space traffic management, with clear communication protocols and more automation,”
Brussels, 23 December 2020 - The European Commission has selected a consortium of European satellite manufacturers, operators and service providers, telco operators and launch service providers to study the design, development and launch of a European-owned space-based communication system.The study will assess the feasibility of a new initiative aiming to strengthen European digital sovereignty and provide secure connectivity for citizens, commercial enterprises and public institutions as well as providing global coverage for rural and ‘not-spot’ areas. Complementing Copernicus and Galileo, this new EU flagship programme, once given the green light, would fully exploit the synergies of the technological potential akin to the Digital and Space industries. The contract value of the year-long feasibility study amounts to € 7.1 million.The European space-based connectivity system, advocated by Commissioner Breton, is set to provide secure communication services to the EU and its Member States as well as broadband connectivity for European citizens, companies and mobility sectors, strengthening EU digital sovereignty. It will build upon the European Union’s GOVSATCOM programme of pooling and sharing satellite services, and will ensure a high level of reliability, resilience and security not currently available in the market; it will also leverage the EuroQCI initiative that promotes innovative quantum scamgraphy technology.More specifically, the study phase awarded by the European Commission will consolidate the user and mission requirements and provide a preliminary architectural design and service provision concept, as well as associated budgetary estimates. A Public-Private Partnership (PPP) scheme will be considered and assessed during this phase.The study will look at how the space-based system could enhance and connect to current and future critical infrastructures, including terrestrial networks, strengthening EU capability to access the cloud and providing digital services in an independent and secure way, which is essential for building confidence in the digital economy and ensuring European strategic autonomy and resilience.It will leverage and strengthen the role of satellites in the 5G ecosystem, assessing interoperability whilst also taking into account the evolution towards upcoming 6G technologies.This European sovereign infrastructure is set to benefit a large range of sectors, including road and maritime transport, air traffic and control, autonomous vehicle development as well as many Internet of Things (IoT) applications. It is intended to offer enhanced security in the transmission and storage of information and data supporting the needs of various users such as governmental agencies, finance & banking companies, science networks, critical infrastructures and data centres.The consortium members are: Airbus, Arianespace, Eutelsat, Hispasat, OHB, Orange, SES, Telespazio and Thales Alenia Space.@AirbusSpace @Arianespace @EU_Commission @Eutelsat_SA @Hispasat @OHB_SE @orange @SES_satellites @telespazio @Thales_Alenia_S
It would be against its interests and investments to strongly support maintenance-intenstive, non-resilient megaconstellations instead of the more robust ground technology it has become a forefront player on. Of course, if Spain can do this, most mid-sized countries with a reasonably large economy can too.
Quote from: Hauerg on 12/18/2020 02:27 pmEasy to say living from moeny from the western EU.The money (printed paper) flows from the metrpolis to periphery. While the resources to sustain the metropolis come from the periphery. So please don't feel so smug. EU is not a charity project.
Easy to say living from moeny from the western EU.
Quote from: eeergo on 12/17/2020 08:15 amIt would be against its interests and investments to strongly support maintenance-intenstive, non-resilient megaconstellations instead of the more robust ground technology it has become a forefront player on. Of course, if Spain can do this, most mid-sized countries with a reasonably large economy can too.Satellites (launched from one place, and self deorbiting when not working properly) and isolated (but essentially single design and made in mass quantities) ground stations are maintenance intensive, and fixed fiber running in a myriad different directions is *not* maintenance intensive? That seems counterintuitive, so please justify that if you would.
The UK and the EU could do a deal made in heaven. The UK gives the EU a stake and access to OneWeb while the EU gives the UK a stake and access to Galileo.
Quote from: Steven Pietrobon on 12/28/2020 05:53 amThe UK and the EU could do a deal made in heaven. The UK gives the EU a stake and access to OneWeb while the EU gives the UK a stake and access to Galileo.That’s too logical for either side I expect.
It seems that SpaceX and OneWeb chose orbital height & inclination, that were optimal for their LEO megaconstellations. What if in the future other countries or companies wanted to place their megaconstellations at exact same orbital height & inclination.
SpaceX have only 5 years before it will need to start replacing first launched Starlinks. What articles of international law can other countries and companies use in the future, to force them limit number of ST at exact orbital height & inclination and share it with their constellations.
They better get started yesterday on a fully reusable system then, if they want even a small hope of succeeding. Ariane 6 won't cut it if SpaceX can launch more tonnage to orbit per year for a couple hundred million than the entire European launch industry has over its total existence to date.
Quote from: ZachF on 01/09/2021 10:09 pmThey better get started yesterday on a fully reusable system then, if they want even a small hope of succeeding. Ariane 6 won't cut it if SpaceX can launch more tonnage to orbit per year for a couple hundred million than the entire European launch industry has over its total existence to date.Not necessarily, for the same reason Ariane or Proton didn't kill off Atlas or Delta: the requirements for maintaining domestic competence ('do we have the knowledge and infrastructure to build and launch a carrier rocket?') and capability ('can we launch satellites without being beholden to any other nation who may suddenly decide not to launch our satellites?') can outweigh pure launch cost.
"From the first idea about Galileo through to the first operational service in Europe, it has taken 20 years; we don't have 20 years [for this new project]," observed Jean-Marc Nasr, the head of Airbus Space Systems, which leads the feasibility consortium."Speed is of the essence here. The idea of the European space infrastructure has been on the table since early 2020. We cannot have the first service in 2040. If we do that, we are dead."We have to have the service operational at the end of this decade at the latest. And this requires all of us to work as a team to deliver the best competitive service and technical background to Europe."
The industry consortium devising a satellite network to keep the European Union from falling too far behind the megaconstellation goldrush is weeks away from nailing down key criteria.The group has already made initial proposals on elements including frequency and orbital characteristics, according to Dominic Hayes, frequency manager for the EU space program at the European Commission’s Defence Industry and Space (DEFIS) department.“They’re presenting those as firm deliverables in the course of the next few weeks,” Hayes told SATELLITE 2021’s EMEA + Asia Digital Forum May 18.
Eutelsat has jeopardised its involvement in a new EU space-based internet service by investing alongside the UK government in the satellite broadband company, OneWeb, the EU’s internal market commissioner has warned.“We took good note of their decision to participate in a project that is in direct competition with the European initiative. I do not see how, structurally, an entity can have stakes in two competing projects,” said Thierry Breton, who also oversees the European Commission’s tech policy, at the launch of the European Union Agency for the Space Programme (EUSPA).The new EU constellation was “absolutely critical for our autonomy, for our sovereignty, for our future. So, we will not compromise,” he added.
And some food fights: EU questions Eutelsat for taking stake in OneWeb
[Thierry Breton, EU commissioner] suggested he was unhappy with the industry group’s progress on the satellite communications study. “To tell you the truth, it was very interesting, it was important, but not too innovative,” he said of the first results from that effort. He said the EU will commission a second study involving smaller businesses and startups, rather that the larger companies involved in the first one. They will provide a report within two months.
The head of France’s Space Command appeared to endorse the European Commission’s proposal for a mega-constellation of satellites in low Earth orbit to preserve spectrum and orbital-slot rights in the face of U.S. and Chinese advances.Gen. Michel Friedling acknowledged that the business models of broadband constellations has yet to be proven. But given the strategic implications, he said, their ultimate profitability, while important, “is not the subject here. It’s sovereignty.”
Not that kind of sovereignty. If megaconstellation satcom becomes essential for governments and business in Europe, the EC doesn't want to be reliant on foreign entities to provide it (and take it away at their whim, as happened with Symphonie).
Quote from: high road on 12/18/2020 09:55 amand ESA's very public calling out of SpaceX not being responsive when ESA had to move one of their satellites to avoid a collision with a SpaceX satellite. You mean the ESA thanking SpaceX for their response*, while simultaneously using it as a point to emphasise the need for a global platform for communicating conjunctions and collaborating on avoidance (rather than the current non-mechanism of 'erm, send them an email, or maybe a fax?')? The ESA only pointed the finger of blame within the minds of tabloid headline writers, not in reality.*QuoteContact with Starlink early in the process allowed ESA to take conflict-free action later, knowing the second spacecraft would remain where models expected it to be. [...] “No one was at fault here, but this example does show the urgent need for proper space traffic management, with clear communication protocols and more automation,”
this is the German part of ESA. They are generally quite positive toward SpaceX. The British were extremely vocal on twitter and had initiated "tabloids" wave.
Europe has good infrastructure as it is
EU Commission @defis_eu issues RFP to NewSpace co's for ideas on future secure comms/QKD/brdbnd constellation. Sept 10 bid deadline; 2 winners to get EUR 1.4M ($1.65M) each for 6-month study, to include satellite, launch cost estimates. @DigitalEU @esa https://bit.ly/3BwKpPA
https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/1417442539137867790QuoteEU Commission @defis_eu issues RFP to NewSpace co's for ideas on future secure comms/QKD/brdbnd constellation. Sept 10 bid deadline; 2 winners to get EUR 1.4M ($1.65M) each for 6-month study, to include satellite, launch cost estimates. @DigitalEU @esa https://bit.ly/3BwKpPA
There could be another thorn in the Commission’s plan. While Breton has disowned Eutelsat and its investment in OneWeb, the UK firm has been eyeing Europe’s plans.The operator’s biggest backer, Indian billionaire Sunil Mittal of Bharti Global, is understood to have written to the European Commission expressing an interest in collaborating on the EU constellation.Project sources believe the EU wants a “sovereign” capability and any involvement from OneWeb is likely to be “difficult”.
Without reusable F9 rockets and future reusable Starships, building an alternative network will be quite expensive. Launch costs from other launch providers would have to come down.
Quote from: spacenut on 08/08/2021 01:32 pmWithout reusable F9 rockets and future reusable Starships, building an alternative network will be quite expensive. Launch costs from other launch providers would have to come down.It does solve the chicken-and-egg issue for developing a re-usable Ariane: a reusable Ariane that launches a handful of times per year cannot support the development costs and ongoing support (e.g. you can't employ a standing army to manufacture more vehicles when they only need to make one every few years, but if you fire them and close the facility then you have no fallback on loss of a vehicle) without ballooning launch costs to match expendable vehicles, but you can't launch tens to hundreds of times per year to bring the costs down if there is no demand, and there is no demand if the costs are not brought down. A constellation manufactures your own demand for a high flight rate, which justifies a re-usable launcher.
Musk is creating his own "reusability flight rate killer app" with Starlink. 42 000 satellites to launch - plenty enough to keep F9 and Starship busy for a very long time.
Without reusable F9 rockets and future reusable Starships, building an alternative network will be quite expensive. Launch costs from other launch providers would have to come down. ....
The best the EU can do is give the UK unrestricted access to Galileo in exchange for unrestricted access to Oneweb. That way the whole of Europe wins.
Quote from: daedalus1 on 08/10/2021 06:28 amThe best the EU can do is give the UK unrestricted access to Galileo in exchange for unrestricted access to Oneweb. That way the whole of Europe wins.Like with launch vehicles, that's a sovereignty rather than a technical issue (same reason why Galileo exists in the first place rather than 'just use GPS', why EDRS exists rather than 'just use TDRS', why CRS exists rather than 'just use Soyuz', etc).
The reason the UK has been excluded from the PRS segment is a sovereignty issue, not a technical one. Likewise, the reason the EU wants a domestically owned and operated communications network is a sovereignty requirement, not a technical one.
The European Commission, heading off the possibility that it will have neither the funds nor the expertise to manage a constellation of broadband/quantum communications satellites, has asked industry to assess less-costly alternatives.Options the Commission will assess include purchasing a minority stake in a non-EU constellation already being built. This capacity would later be supplemented by EU infrastructure.
EU Commission, facing budget, schedule issues, willing to consider buying stake in non-EU broadband constellation
A consortium of more than 20 European space companies said Dec. 8 it won a six-month contract to study disruptive ideas for Europe’s planned satellite broadband constellation.The contract from the European Commission is worth 1.4 million euros ($1.6 million) and was awarded to New Symphonie, a consortium led by market intelligence firm Euroconsult and French satellite surveillance startup Unseenlabs.New Symphonie aims to investigate and recommend the most optimal infrastructure for Europe’s sovereign multi-orbit connectivity vision, drawing on new business models and capabilities in the emerging space ecosystem.
Explore Future European Satellite ConstellationBy Rachel Jewett | December 13, 2021EuropeEuropean Union EU FlagThe European Commission has selected two consortiums of European space companies for initial study on a future European satellite constellation. A consortium called New Symphonie, led by Unseenlabs and Euroconsult, was announced Dec. 8. A second consortium, UN:IO, led by Mynaric, Isar Aerospace, and Reflex Aerospace was announced Monday.
IMO this horse has well and truly left the stable, no point in locking the door now.If the EU wants to get into the LEO Internet business, they have at best two realistic choices: * Buy a major chunk of OneWeb through some EU organisation - this is a good bet, but would seriously annoy the "England must pay for Brexit" faction; or * Buy into Kuiper - this is risky as Kuiper may never be a viable product being late to market and lacking obvious ways to launch enough satellites to satisfy their ITU "50% in orbit" commitment.
Quote from: Kiwi53 on 12/17/2021 10:25 pmIMO this horse has well and truly left the stable, no point in locking the door now.If the EU wants to get into the LEO Internet business, they have at best two realistic choices: * Buy a major chunk of OneWeb through some EU organisation - this is a good bet, but would seriously annoy the "England must pay for Brexit" faction; or * Buy into Kuiper - this is risky as Kuiper may never be a viable product being late to market and lacking obvious ways to launch enough satellites to satisfy their ITU "50% in orbit" commitment.Amazon will be happy to sign EU as customer but with $85B of cash reserves they don't need them as investor, . For Amazon Kuiper is strategic invest, more about AWS data security than making money off subscribers in remote locals. That doesn't mean they don't want those subscribers to help pay bills.Sent from my SM-T733 using Tapatalk
