Indonesia Invites SpaceX to Set Up Spaceport

[steveleach]

I don't see this go anywhere. Well, maybe if E2E works, they can get an E2E spaceport, other than that, no.

Brazil sent similar invitation to US launch companies, and they're a lot closer than Indonesia, I think SpaceX basically ignored them.

Brazil don't have massive nickel deposits. IIRC Indonesia recently prohibits the export of nickel ore. Might be worth it put up some floating launch facility to get access to the nickel for SX CTO's side business of making batteries.

IMO this whole thing is a deal-sweerener for the proposed Tesla-Indonesia deal for nickel sales

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-battery/tesla-teams-to-visit-indonesia-to-check-on-investment-in-ev-components-government-idUSKBN28M08H

JAKARTA (Reuters) - Tesla, the U.S. automaker, will send delegations to Indonesia next month to discuss potential investment in a supply chain for its electric vehicles, the government said on Saturday in a statement.

President Joko Widodo has touted Indonesia’s nickel reserves on a number of occasions, telling Reuters last month that “it’s very important because we have a great plan to make Indonesia the biggest producer of lithium batteries and we have the biggest nickel (reserves).”

Why would this sweeten the Tesla deal, and which side is sweetening it for which?

It seems more likely to me that Must has two things the Indonesian government wants: Tesla vehicle/component production and SpaceX launch business. Having got his attention with one of them, they are now talking to him about the other.

[docmordrid]

I don't see this go anywhere. Well, maybe if E2E works, they can get an E2E spaceport, other than that, no.

Brazil sent similar invitation to US launch companies, and they're a lot closer than Indonesia, I think SpaceX basically ignored them.

Brazil don't have massive nickel deposits. IIRC Indonesia recently prohibits the export of nickel ore. Might be worth it put up some floating launch facility to get access to the nickel for SX CTO's side business of making batteries.

IMO this whole thing is a deal-sweerener for the proposed Tesla-Indonesia deal for nickel sales

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-battery/tesla-teams-to-visit-indonesia-to-check-on-investment-in-ev-components-government-idUSKBN28M08H

JAKARTA (Reuters) - Tesla, the U.S. automaker, will send delegations to Indonesia next month to discuss potential investment in a supply chain for its electric vehicles, the government said on Saturday in a statement.

President Joko Widodo has touted Indonesia’s nickel reserves on a number of occasions, telling Reuters last month that “it’s very important because we have a great plan to make Indonesia the biggest producer of lithium batteries and we have the biggest nickel (reserves).”

Why would this sweeten the Tesla deal, and which side is sweetening it for which?

It seems more likely to me that Must has two things the Indonesian government wants: Tesla vehicle/component production and SpaceX launch business. Having got his attention with one of them, they are now talking to him about the other.

The sweetener for SpaceX is a willing partner to build the first Point to Point hub in Asia, and for Tesla cheaper labor & material sourcing for expanding nickel-chemistry 4680 battery cell production.

[DreamyPickle]

This seems to be a passing comment which receives far more attention than it deserves.

A ground-based spaceport is extremely unlikely because of ITAR and because Indonesia is not a close stable ally of the US. Sea-based launch platforms are likely to be placed all around the world, maybe even outside national waters.

The notion of an "E2E hub" would negate the critical "speed" advantage of the Starship architecture. It would make more sense to build an peer-to-peer network between major metropolitan areas, for example LA to Shanghai directly.

[RedLineTrain]

This seems to be a passing comment which receives far more attention than it deserves.

This was announced in an official press release by the Indonesians and reported in the English press by Indonesian reporters.  That's about as formal as these things go.

[philw1776]

It's a useful Musk bargaining point if OKs to fly the full stack from Boca don't proceed with necessary alacrity. Or if launch frequency is insufficient, particularly for tanker trips.
OTOH I see shallow sea offshore from Boca & the Cape launch & landing platforms as a better & quicker solution.
Along international lines, I wonder what Brazil has to offer Tesla?  Decent location for a SpaceX spaceport. More accessible from US.

[RedLineTrain]

Here is a Saturday article quoting the head of the Indonesia space agency that seems to indicate the proposed spaceport is on the island of Biak. I doubt SpaceX would be interested in that. Apparently, they have been shopping that site for a few years.

https://inet.detik.com/science/d-5292817/jokowi-lobi-elon-musk-roket-spacex-bisa-meluncur-di-biak

Basically, it's probably got to be a sea platform next to Jakarta for SpaceX to be interested.

[Wicky]

Biak's right on the 'ring of fire' and quite quake prone - could be tricky for wobbly rockets....


https://earthquaketrack.com/id-36-biak/recent

[Asteroza]

Er... ITAR ?

Brazil got over this with their Al Cantara spaceport via signing a Technology Safeguard Agreement with the US. It shouldn't be hard for Indonesia to do the same.

But the rationale is suspect, aside from sweetening a deal for Tesla. Reaching Brazil from Boca Cica as a hop from a manufacturing site to an operational equatorial spaceport facility is much easier and can avoid land overflight.

[smoliarm]

From BBC News, 12/14/2020:
"Indonesia courts SpaceX as new rocket launch site"

Well, this short article mostly talks about Indonesia's Ni-Cu-Sn deposits, Li-batteries, electric cars and gigafactory.
And a few words about launch site:

... apart from an investment partnership with Tesla, Mr Widodo also asked Mr Musk to look into the possibility of setting up a space launch station in Indonesia.

"President Joko Widodo invites [Musk] to look into Indonesia as a launching pad for SpaceX," the ministry said.

Indonesia's National Institute of Aeronautics and Space (LAPAN) has plans to construct its first spaceport. It will be located in Biak, on the island of Papua.

Quick search on Biak gives:
It's located ~ 1° south of equator, it's scarcely populated (although has an airport), has a lot of beaches, waterfalls and coral reefs...
It has all the Pacific to the East (some 10000 miles) to South America. Polar launch azimuth seems open as well - Japan is more than 2000 miles to the North.

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.
Also, it would be an interesting field trip for Nasaspaceflight launch coverage team

[jrhan48]

The ITAR problem is solved by basically declaring the launch port a diplomatic premise. So they basically behave as in US soil. But that is also expensive. The question is if there's such demand for performance above Falcon 9's to equatorial orbits that justifies the investment and upkeep beyond making a bigger rocket. Give the bigger rocket that they are developing, I don't think this is something SpaceX would seriously think about.
Besides, there's a lot more to launching rocket than the latitude. SpaceX does has experience with equatorial remote location launch sites. And they certainly said that all the hassle and lack of infrastructure was not worth the hassle. KSC/CCAFS is probably the single best launch site in the world (not specifically for GTO nor Polar). You have everything. You want a contractor? You have them all at a few hours drive, or you can fly them from US soil on commercial flights all through the day. Any piece of equipment you need you can source in couple of days, and for general stuff like scaffolding, paint, cherry-pickers, hardware store stuff and such in hours. You simply can't do that anywhere else.

That's true, but with an equatorial site, cheap labour and a government bending over backwards to offer investment and subsidies they could in time create the world's best spaceport. One thing they would need is a high-profile, high-volume keystone customer which could be why they are courting SpaceX.

And it might be attractive to SpaceX if the US Government doesn't allow them to launch as often as they want from the sites they want. Or if congress slaps overbearing regulations on Starship to try to protect SLS.

Also, if KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world, why did SpaceX decide to do Starship in Boca Chica?

KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world for the whole stack. Boca Chica is just a rocket development ground. They are their own range, among other things. So they are free to play. But if you actually have a satellite, and need suplies like storable propellants, sophisticated payload processing installations and equipment, having an expert on any possible subject available and being able to get repair parts and services a call away, there are very little other places that can compete.

The problem is congestion between SpaceX and other launch providers for the limited range opportunities, and the red tape involved with a new development test program with some Ruds, that could affect other launch pads, with a lot of added red tape.  It is quite likely, cheaper, and easier to develop Boca Chica than to attempt to do the same thing at the Cape.  At Boca, they can run their schedule with only minimal interference from the government and things change to the FAA in control rather than NASA, and that is a good thing for the long term in space.

[danneely]

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.
Also, it would be an interesting field trip for Nasaspaceflight launch coverage team

Sadly for them, and anyone else hoping for a junket to a tropical paradise, ITAR says nope.

[Robotbeat]

This thread is a duplicate.

[zubenelgenubi]

This thread is a duplicate.

Moderator: Threads merged.

[edzieba]

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.

Well, apart from the need to built them there or ship them there, and to operate them there.

e.g. How many hundreds (or more) miles away are the nearest bulk LOX and LCH4 suppliers? What's the lead-time for 304L Stainless rolls? Is there a local workforce to train, or do you need to ship your existing crew across an ocean? Do you really want to fly every McGregor produced item (Raptors, cold-gas and future hot-gas thrusters, avionics, etc) across for every order? And for items that cannot be air-freighted, do you want the added lead-times for sea-freight?

[DistantTemple]

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.

Well, apart from the need to built them there or ship them there, and to operate them there.

e.g. How many hundreds (or more) miles away are the nearest bulk LOX and LCH4 suppliers? What's the lead-time for 304L Stainless rolls? Is there a local workforce to train, or do you need to ship your existing crew across an ocean? Do you really want to fly every McGregor produced item (Raptors, cold-gas and future hot-gas thrusters, avionics, etc) across for every order? And for items that cannot be air-freighted, do you want the added lead-times for sea-freight?

Assuming SX says "yes" and "were going ahead" say in June 2021.... Even at warp Elon speed it is going to be a little while before rockets will be built and launched there!

In say 3 years SpaceX will be well on the way to having Starship and SuperHeavy established. The vision of dozens becoming a hundred or more will be coming true. The new facility will be a large installation.....
Assuming Starships will be assembled there, but engines will not.
 - the design of SS and SH will be sufficiently solidified that site, buildings and large machinery can be largely correctly specified, and so planning, clearing, foundations, buildings and installations, can proceed in a well organised way. (as we are seeing with Giga Berlin)
 - Assuming SX continues with its existing supplier of stainless steel rolls - (I don't know if SX's rolls are in some way specially produced for them) then its just an occasional large shipment.
 - Engines, and all high tec items including all electronics, hydraulics, motors, valves, LOX and CH4 pipe parts will all be shipped from the US.
 - Items like the thrust structures, and down-comers could be made in the new facility, or (with more inconvenience) shipped. Its a planning and scheduling problem that is solved by manufacturing industries, including Tesla.... the surface shipping delay is only a problem when something goes wrong!
It would make a lot of sense to have an initial (largely) dedicated ship load of machines, ss-rolls, and a stock of several starship's worth of engines, batteries, thrust structures etc. for factory set-up.
A core imported team would manage and train the workforce. Remember Elon likes his "the machine that builds the machine", and is now into spawning gigafactories! Also there ARE skilled welders in the far east! (and much of the welding is going robitic .... I think!) 
Air freight is no problem, especially with the likely value and size of the orders!
Bulk CH4 by sea is a totally solved problem. Even thousands of miles is not a problem. The infrastructure is in place for LNG, and will easily accommodate a new large customer for CH4, as it will be good business to do so! LOX will most likely be produced on site (or close by) by SX or a contractor.

(Starships could go orbital to get there, but Super Heavy couldn't I think, and so would HAVE to be built there (or shipped - which would I think be expensive)

[steveleach]

The ITAR problem is solved by basically declaring the launch port a diplomatic premise. So they basically behave as in US soil. But that is also expensive. The question is if there's such demand for performance above Falcon 9's to equatorial orbits that justifies the investment and upkeep beyond making a bigger rocket. Give the bigger rocket that they are developing, I don't think this is something SpaceX would seriously think about.
Besides, there's a lot more to launching rocket than the latitude. SpaceX does has experience with equatorial remote location launch sites. And they certainly said that all the hassle and lack of infrastructure was not worth the hassle. KSC/CCAFS is probably the single best launch site in the world (not specifically for GTO nor Polar). You have everything. You want a contractor? You have them all at a few hours drive, or you can fly them from US soil on commercial flights all through the day. Any piece of equipment you need you can source in couple of days, and for general stuff like scaffolding, paint, cherry-pickers, hardware store stuff and such in hours. You simply can't do that anywhere else.

That's true, but with an equatorial site, cheap labour and a government bending over backwards to offer investment and subsidies they could in time create the world's best spaceport. One thing they would need is a high-profile, high-volume keystone customer which could be why they are courting SpaceX.

And it might be attractive to SpaceX if the US Government doesn't allow them to launch as often as they want from the sites they want. Or if congress slaps overbearing regulations on Starship to try to protect SLS.

Also, if KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world, why did SpaceX decide to do Starship in Boca Chica?

KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world for the whole stack. Boca Chica is just a rocket development ground. They are their own range, among other things. So they are free to play. But if you actually have a satellite, and need suplies like storable propellants, sophisticated payload processing installations and equipment, having an expert on any possible subject available and being able to get repair parts and services a call away, there are very little other places that can compete.

The problem is congestion between SpaceX and other launch providers for the limited range opportunities, and the red tape involved with a new development test program with some Ruds, that could affect other launch pads, with a lot of added red tape.  It is quite likely, cheaper, and easier to develop Boca Chica than to attempt to do the same thing at the Cape.  At Boca, they can run their schedule with only minimal interference from the government and things change to the FAA in control rather than NASA, and that is a good thing for the long term in space.

Exactly. But BC is small, and there is a good sized town pretty close, not to mention the Mexican border.

Now imagine the Indonesian government sets aside much of the island for you. They give you a massive launch site and a massive build site, and build a port and an airport. They construct hotels, apartment blocks and office buildings. They then build road, rail and canal links between them all.

They build a university and recruit a lot of aerospace engineers from around the world as faculty, then ship in the brightest local school kids to study there.

They give tax breaks and incentives, not just to you, but also lots of other aerospace startups from around the world, to relocate.

And they promise even less interference than you get at BC.

All of this at the equator, which means you can launch more mass, and pick whatever inclination you like.

Would this tempt you?

[Robotbeat]

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.

Well, apart from the need to built them there or ship them there, and to operate them there.

e.g. How many hundreds (or more) miles away are the nearest bulk LOX and LCH4 suppliers? ...

Indonesia is a major LNG producer, actually one of the world’s first major LNG exporters, and is close to where Australia’s massive off-shore gas liquefier “Prelude” sits. And Indonesia has lots of geothermal energy (it’s made of volcanoes) plus is just about right on the equator so has lots of solar energy as well, so would be one of the best places to set up synthesized non-fossil methane production as well (combining solar and geothermal allows you to minimize the high capital cost associated with battery storage or operating electrolysis below 100% duty cycle).


This thread just shows how little most of the world knows about Indonesia, the 4th largest country in the world...

[Robotbeat]

SpaceX doesn’t actually have to build a launch site there. SpaceX could just park a floating launch facility 1-22km off the shore and Indonesia could provide local services (including energy/propellant and housing and medical and recreation, etc). So the SpaceX facility could remain US-flagged and perhaps even in international waters. ITAR/EAR need never become involved (altho that may not be too much a problem to do it).

[Robotbeat]

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.

Well, apart from the need to built them there or ship them there, and to operate them there.

e.g. How many hundreds (or more) miles away are the nearest bulk LOX and LCH4 suppliers? What's the lead-time for 304L Stainless rolls? Is there a local workforce to train, or do you need to ship your existing crew across an ocean? Do you really want to fly every McGregor produced item (Raptors, cold-gas and future hot-gas thrusters, avionics, etc) across for every order? And for items that cannot be air-freighted, do you want the added lead-times for sea-freight?

Use Starship E2E for logistics!

[baldusi]

Space launch is about payloads, not rockets. Equatorial is basically required only for GSO, which is what? 10 commercial launches per year? For anything else, 28deg is more than fine. Specially if they can dogleg from there.
Again, you launch payloads, spacecraft want lots of services, things fail or get displaced when shipped, things are forgotten, final integration always has issues.
Boca Chica is excellent for developing.