Indonesia Invites SpaceX to Set Up Spaceport

[RedLineTrain]

Bloomberg is reporting that the President of Indonesia asked Musk to study setting up a spaceport in the country. The reporting doesn't mention anything concrete, such as location(s).

It appears that this was one of several topics in conversation between the President and Musk.  This is being swept in to the President's wooing of Musk to set up a battery factory in the country and a general effort to invite foreign investment.

This reporting is coming from the Indonesian side.

Indonesia invited SpaceX to assess the possibility of setting up a rocket launch site in the country, according to a ministry statement.

President Joko Widodo discussed the idea with SpaceX founder Elon Musk during a phone call on Friday, the Coordinating Ministry for Maritime and Investment Affairs said in the statement. Musk intends to send a team to Indonesia in January to study partnership opportunities, it said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-12/indonesia-asks-spacex-to-study-country-as-venue-for-launch-site

[xanmarus]

Private spaceport on the volcanic tropical island, owned by extravagant billionaire?

[hektor]

Er... ITAR ?

[spacenut]

If Indonesia builds the Spaceport to SpaceX's specifications, then equatorial launches could get more payload into orbit as well as geo orbits using Starships/Superheavies.  Also point to point for SE Asian markets. 

Maybe Japan would offer one of their islands south of Japan for the east Asian markets. 

This could get interesting. 

[Nomadd]

Private spaceport on the volcanic tropical island, owned by extravagant billionaire?

A tribute to the late, great Sean Connery?

[niwax]

I wish more space agencies looked at the diplomatic problems behind establishing international spaceports and bases instead of trying to aim for where SpaceX was five years ago. We're in for the same revolution as the jet age which resulted in only two remaining big aircraft manufacturers, but a flourishing industry backed by open skies agreements and common safety regulation. It is unreasonable to expect Europe to have a Starship in five years time, for example, but a good way to not be left behind is to operate them and establish technological exchange.

It's not impossible either. Remember when computing, networking and encryption were still considered military secrets? Imagine how the world would look if we had been forbidden from sharing technology for another ten or twenty years. The positive impact on world development was immense.

[RedLineTrain]

Er... ITAR ?

This can be solved, as did Rocket Lab in New Zealand.  As would Brazil with the launch site it was offering.  I think it takes a country-to-country operational agreement of some sort.

[Cherokee43v6]

Private spaceport on the volcanic tropical island, owned by extravagant billionaire?

*snerk*  Uh problem is that Elon is 'Iron Man' not 'Syndrome'...

[ncb1397]

Er... ITAR ?

Indonesia seems to be on the okay list currently for major arms exports. ITAR doesn't mean you can't export arms, it is ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations), not ITAB (International Traffic in Arms Ban).

Indonesia: Indonesia was cleared to spend an estimated $2 billion to buy eight MV-22 Block C Osprey aircraft. Also included are 24 AE 1107C Rolls-Royce engines; 20 each of the AN/AAQ-27 forward-Looking infrared radars, AN/AAR-47 missile warning systems and AN/APR-39 radar warning receivers; and 20 each of the M-240-D 7.64mm machine guns and GAU-21 machine guns, among other gear.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/the-americas/2020/07/06/us-approves-75-billion-in-foreign-weapon-sales-in-one-day/

So, things appear to have subsided after the issues with arms exports initiated due to the violence that occured during the East Timor independence movement. But the caveat being that this was done under Trump who tends to have lax arms export restraints and Ospreys aren't Intercontinental ballistic missile like objects. Those tend to be restricted to the closest allies such as SLBMs for the UK Royal Navy (being a NPT authorized nuclear weapon state will help). Anyways, I would imagine that for the time being, SpaceX or another U.S. corporation would maintain ownership and control over any large rockets that are operated out of Indonesia.

[baldusi]

The ITAR problem is solved by basically declaring the launch port a diplomatic premise. So they basically behave as in US soil. But that is also expensive. The question is if there's such demand for performance above Falcon 9's to equatorial orbits that justifies the investment and upkeep beyond making a bigger rocket. Give the bigger rocket that they are developing, I don't think this is something SpaceX would seriously think about.
Besides, there's a lot more to launching rocket than the latitude. SpaceX does has experience with equatorial remote location launch sites. And they certainly said that all the hassle and lack of infrastructure was not worth the hassle. KSC/CCAFS is probably the single best launch site in the world (not specifically for GTO nor Polar). You have everything. You want a contractor? You have them all at a few hours drive, or you can fly them from US soil on commercial flights all through the day. Any piece of equipment you need you can source in couple of days, and for general stuff like scaffolding, paint, cherry-pickers, hardware store stuff and such in hours. You simply can't do that anywhere else.

[steveleach]

The ITAR problem is solved by basically declaring the launch port a diplomatic premise. So they basically behave as in US soil. But that is also expensive. The question is if there's such demand for performance above Falcon 9's to equatorial orbits that justifies the investment and upkeep beyond making a bigger rocket. Give the bigger rocket that they are developing, I don't think this is something SpaceX would seriously think about.
Besides, there's a lot more to launching rocket than the latitude. SpaceX does has experience with equatorial remote location launch sites. And they certainly said that all the hassle and lack of infrastructure was not worth the hassle. KSC/CCAFS is probably the single best launch site in the world (not specifically for GTO nor Polar). You have everything. You want a contractor? You have them all at a few hours drive, or you can fly them from US soil on commercial flights all through the day. Any piece of equipment you need you can source in couple of days, and for general stuff like scaffolding, paint, cherry-pickers, hardware store stuff and such in hours. You simply can't do that anywhere else.

That's true, but with an equatorial site, cheap labour and a government bending over backwards to offer investment and subsidies they could in time create the world's best spaceport. One thing they would need is a high-profile, high-volume keystone customer which could be why they are courting SpaceX.

And it might be attractive to SpaceX if the US Government doesn't allow them to launch as often as they want from the sites they want. Or if congress slaps overbearing regulations on Starship to try to protect SLS.

Also, if KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world, why did SpaceX decide to do Starship in Boca Chica?

[baldusi]

The ITAR problem is solved by basically declaring the launch port a diplomatic premise. So they basically behave as in US soil. But that is also expensive. The question is if there's such demand for performance above Falcon 9's to equatorial orbits that justifies the investment and upkeep beyond making a bigger rocket. Give the bigger rocket that they are developing, I don't think this is something SpaceX would seriously think about.
Besides, there's a lot more to launching rocket than the latitude. SpaceX does has experience with equatorial remote location launch sites. And they certainly said that all the hassle and lack of infrastructure was not worth the hassle. KSC/CCAFS is probably the single best launch site in the world (not specifically for GTO nor Polar). You have everything. You want a contractor? You have them all at a few hours drive, or you can fly them from US soil on commercial flights all through the day. Any piece of equipment you need you can source in couple of days, and for general stuff like scaffolding, paint, cherry-pickers, hardware store stuff and such in hours. You simply can't do that anywhere else.

That's true, but with an equatorial site, cheap labour and a government bending over backwards to offer investment and subsidies they could in time create the world's best spaceport. One thing they would need is a high-profile, high-volume keystone customer which could be why they are courting SpaceX.

And it might be attractive to SpaceX if the US Government doesn't allow them to launch as often as they want from the sites they want. Or if congress slaps overbearing regulations on Starship to try to protect SLS.

Also, if KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world, why did SpaceX decide to do Starship in Boca Chica?

KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world for the whole stack. Boca Chica is just a rocket development ground. They are their own range, among other things. So they are free to play. But if you actually have a satellite, and need suplies like storable propellants, sophisticated payload processing installations and equipment, having an expert on any possible subject available and being able to get repair parts and services a call away, there's very little other places that can compete.

[su27k]

I don't see this go anywhere. Well, maybe if E2E works, they can get an E2E spaceport, other than that, no.

Brazil sent similar invitation to US launch companies, and they're a lot closer than Indonesia, I think SpaceX basically ignored them.

[Robotbeat]

You could use it to launch propellant to orbit. That'd reduce any logistical headaches of getting payloads down there.

[freddo411]

Depending on the hypothetical launch location one could have a first stage return to land down range.  This would result in greater payload to orbit

[steveleach]

The ITAR problem is solved by basically declaring the launch port a diplomatic premise. So they basically behave as in US soil. But that is also expensive. The question is if there's such demand for performance above Falcon 9's to equatorial orbits that justifies the investment and upkeep beyond making a bigger rocket. Give the bigger rocket that they are developing, I don't think this is something SpaceX would seriously think about.
Besides, there's a lot more to launching rocket than the latitude. SpaceX does has experience with equatorial remote location launch sites. And they certainly said that all the hassle and lack of infrastructure was not worth the hassle. KSC/CCAFS is probably the single best launch site in the world (not specifically for GTO nor Polar). You have everything. You want a contractor? You have them all at a few hours drive, or you can fly them from US soil on commercial flights all through the day. Any piece of equipment you need you can source in couple of days, and for general stuff like scaffolding, paint, cherry-pickers, hardware store stuff and such in hours. You simply can't do that anywhere else.

That's true, but with an equatorial site, cheap labour and a government bending over backwards to offer investment and subsidies they could in time create the world's best spaceport. One thing they would need is a high-profile, high-volume keystone customer which could be why they are courting SpaceX.

And it might be attractive to SpaceX if the US Government doesn't allow them to launch as often as they want from the sites they want. Or if congress slaps overbearing regulations on Starship to try to protect SLS.

Also, if KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world, why did SpaceX decide to do Starship in Boca Chica?

KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world for the whole stack. Boca Chica is just a rocket development ground. They are their own range, among other things. So they are free to play. But if you actually have a satellite, and need suplies like storable propellants, sophisticated payload processing installations and equipment, having an expert on any possible subject available and being able to get repair parts and services a call away, there's very little other places that can compete.

I'm not at all convinced of that, tbh. SpaceX were looking to launch lots of F9s from BC before they refocussed on Starship. I think this was because KSC/CCAFS couldn't support the launch rate they wanted.

Regardless, the fact that a certain facility is currently the best for something doesn't mean it will remain so.  In any contest, incumbents have an advantage, but they can also be too slow to react to nimble new entrants into their field.

I wouldn't be surprised if, fifty years from now, almost all launches are from massive international spaceports in Brazil, Somalia (!!??) and Indonesia, each with facilities that make KSC/CCAFS look like a clearing in a swamp by comparison.

[Zed_Noir]

Er... ITAR ?

On a US flagged launch platform along with a US flagged payload processing platform operating in Indonesian waters?

[Zed_Noir]

I don't see this go anywhere. Well, maybe if E2E works, they can get an E2E spaceport, other than that, no.

Brazil sent similar invitation to US launch companies, and they're a lot closer than Indonesia, I think SpaceX basically ignored them.

Brazil don't have massive nickel deposits. IIRC Indonesia recently prohibits the export of nickel ore. Might be worth it put up some floating launch facility to get access to the nickel for SX CTO's side business of making batteries.

[docmordrid]

I don't see this go anywhere. Well, maybe if E2E works, they can get an E2E spaceport, other than that, no.

Brazil sent similar invitation to US launch companies, and they're a lot closer than Indonesia, I think SpaceX basically ignored them.

Brazil don't have massive nickel deposits. IIRC Indonesia recently prohibits the export of nickel ore. Might be worth it put up some floating launch facility to get access to the nickel for SX CTO's side business of making batteries.

IMO this whole thing is a deal-sweetener for the proposed Tesla-Indonesia deal for nickel sales

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-battery/tesla-teams-to-visit-indonesia-to-check-on-investment-in-ev-components-government-idUSKBN28M08H

DECEMBER 12, 2020

JAKARTA (Reuters) - Tesla, the U.S. automaker, will send delegations to Indonesia next month to discuss potential investment in a supply chain for its electric vehicles, the government said on Saturday in a statement.

President Joko Widodo has touted Indonesia’s nickel reserves on a number of occasions, telling Reuters last month that “it’s very important because we have a great plan to make Indonesia the biggest producer of lithium batteries and we have the biggest nickel (reserves).”

[RedLineTrain]

I don't see this go anywhere. Well, maybe if E2E works, they can get an E2E spaceport, other than that, no.

Brazil sent similar invitation to US launch companies, and they're a lot closer than Indonesia, I think SpaceX basically ignored them.

What do you mean by E2E?  Do you mean point-to-point? And, if so, why would there be much difference between an orbital spaceport and a point-to-point spaceport?

In any event, I do think that your view of this invitation rests on how viable you think the point-to-point service will be and how aggressively SpaceX will pursuit it. The GEO-sat market is basically nil right now.

[steveleach]

I don't see this go anywhere. Well, maybe if E2E works, they can get an E2E spaceport, other than that, no.

Brazil sent similar invitation to US launch companies, and they're a lot closer than Indonesia, I think SpaceX basically ignored them.

Brazil don't have massive nickel deposits. IIRC Indonesia recently prohibits the export of nickel ore. Might be worth it put up some floating launch facility to get access to the nickel for SX CTO's side business of making batteries.

IMO this whole thing is a deal-sweerener for the proposed Tesla-Indonesia deal for nickel sales

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-battery/tesla-teams-to-visit-indonesia-to-check-on-investment-in-ev-components-government-idUSKBN28M08H

JAKARTA (Reuters) - Tesla, the U.S. automaker, will send delegations to Indonesia next month to discuss potential investment in a supply chain for its electric vehicles, the government said on Saturday in a statement.

President Joko Widodo has touted Indonesia’s nickel reserves on a number of occasions, telling Reuters last month that “it’s very important because we have a great plan to make Indonesia the biggest producer of lithium batteries and we have the biggest nickel (reserves).”

Why would this sweeten the Tesla deal, and which side is sweetening it for which?

It seems more likely to me that Must has two things the Indonesian government wants: Tesla vehicle/component production and SpaceX launch business. Having got his attention with one of them, they are now talking to him about the other.

[docmordrid]

I don't see this go anywhere. Well, maybe if E2E works, they can get an E2E spaceport, other than that, no.

Brazil sent similar invitation to US launch companies, and they're a lot closer than Indonesia, I think SpaceX basically ignored them.

Brazil don't have massive nickel deposits. IIRC Indonesia recently prohibits the export of nickel ore. Might be worth it put up some floating launch facility to get access to the nickel for SX CTO's side business of making batteries.

IMO this whole thing is a deal-sweerener for the proposed Tesla-Indonesia deal for nickel sales

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-battery/tesla-teams-to-visit-indonesia-to-check-on-investment-in-ev-components-government-idUSKBN28M08H

JAKARTA (Reuters) - Tesla, the U.S. automaker, will send delegations to Indonesia next month to discuss potential investment in a supply chain for its electric vehicles, the government said on Saturday in a statement.

President Joko Widodo has touted Indonesia’s nickel reserves on a number of occasions, telling Reuters last month that “it’s very important because we have a great plan to make Indonesia the biggest producer of lithium batteries and we have the biggest nickel (reserves).”

Why would this sweeten the Tesla deal, and which side is sweetening it for which?

It seems more likely to me that Must has two things the Indonesian government wants: Tesla vehicle/component production and SpaceX launch business. Having got his attention with one of them, they are now talking to him about the other.

The sweetener for SpaceX is a willing partner to build the first Point to Point hub in Asia, and for Tesla cheaper labor & material sourcing for expanding nickel-chemistry 4680 battery cell production.

[DreamyPickle]

This seems to be a passing comment which receives far more attention than it deserves.

A ground-based spaceport is extremely unlikely because of ITAR and because Indonesia is not a close stable ally of the US. Sea-based launch platforms are likely to be placed all around the world, maybe even outside national waters.

The notion of an "E2E hub" would negate the critical "speed" advantage of the Starship architecture. It would make more sense to build an peer-to-peer network between major metropolitan areas, for example LA to Shanghai directly.

[RedLineTrain]

This seems to be a passing comment which receives far more attention than it deserves.

This was announced in an official press release by the Indonesians and reported in the English press by Indonesian reporters.  That's about as formal as these things go.

[philw1776]

It's a useful Musk bargaining point if OKs to fly the full stack from Boca don't proceed with necessary alacrity. Or if launch frequency is insufficient, particularly for tanker trips.
OTOH I see shallow sea offshore from Boca & the Cape launch & landing platforms as a better & quicker solution.
Along international lines, I wonder what Brazil has to offer Tesla?  Decent location for a SpaceX spaceport. More accessible from US.

[RedLineTrain]

Here is a Saturday article quoting the head of the Indonesia space agency that seems to indicate the proposed spaceport is on the island of Biak. I doubt SpaceX would be interested in that. Apparently, they have been shopping that site for a few years.

https://inet.detik.com/science/d-5292817/jokowi-lobi-elon-musk-roket-spacex-bisa-meluncur-di-biak

Basically, it's probably got to be a sea platform next to Jakarta for SpaceX to be interested.

[Wicky]

Biak's right on the 'ring of fire' and quite quake prone - could be tricky for wobbly rockets....


https://earthquaketrack.com/id-36-biak/recent

[Asteroza]

Er... ITAR ?

Brazil got over this with their Al Cantara spaceport via signing a Technology Safeguard Agreement with the US. It shouldn't be hard for Indonesia to do the same.

But the rationale is suspect, aside from sweetening a deal for Tesla. Reaching Brazil from Boca Cica as a hop from a manufacturing site to an operational equatorial spaceport facility is much easier and can avoid land overflight.

[smoliarm]

From BBC News, 12/14/2020:
"Indonesia courts SpaceX as new rocket launch site"

Well, this short article mostly talks about Indonesia's Ni-Cu-Sn deposits, Li-batteries, electric cars and gigafactory.
And a few words about launch site:

... apart from an investment partnership with Tesla, Mr Widodo also asked Mr Musk to look into the possibility of setting up a space launch station in Indonesia.

"President Joko Widodo invites [Musk] to look into Indonesia as a launching pad for SpaceX," the ministry said.

Indonesia's National Institute of Aeronautics and Space (LAPAN) has plans to construct its first spaceport. It will be located in Biak, on the island of Papua.

Quick search on Biak gives:
It's located ~ 1° south of equator, it's scarcely populated (although has an airport), has a lot of beaches, waterfalls and coral reefs...
It has all the Pacific to the East (some 10000 miles) to South America. Polar launch azimuth seems open as well - Japan is more than 2000 miles to the North.

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.
Also, it would be an interesting field trip for Nasaspaceflight launch coverage team

[jrhan48]

The ITAR problem is solved by basically declaring the launch port a diplomatic premise. So they basically behave as in US soil. But that is also expensive. The question is if there's such demand for performance above Falcon 9's to equatorial orbits that justifies the investment and upkeep beyond making a bigger rocket. Give the bigger rocket that they are developing, I don't think this is something SpaceX would seriously think about.
Besides, there's a lot more to launching rocket than the latitude. SpaceX does has experience with equatorial remote location launch sites. And they certainly said that all the hassle and lack of infrastructure was not worth the hassle. KSC/CCAFS is probably the single best launch site in the world (not specifically for GTO nor Polar). You have everything. You want a contractor? You have them all at a few hours drive, or you can fly them from US soil on commercial flights all through the day. Any piece of equipment you need you can source in couple of days, and for general stuff like scaffolding, paint, cherry-pickers, hardware store stuff and such in hours. You simply can't do that anywhere else.

That's true, but with an equatorial site, cheap labour and a government bending over backwards to offer investment and subsidies they could in time create the world's best spaceport. One thing they would need is a high-profile, high-volume keystone customer which could be why they are courting SpaceX.

And it might be attractive to SpaceX if the US Government doesn't allow them to launch as often as they want from the sites they want. Or if congress slaps overbearing regulations on Starship to try to protect SLS.

Also, if KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world, why did SpaceX decide to do Starship in Boca Chica?

KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world for the whole stack. Boca Chica is just a rocket development ground. They are their own range, among other things. So they are free to play. But if you actually have a satellite, and need suplies like storable propellants, sophisticated payload processing installations and equipment, having an expert on any possible subject available and being able to get repair parts and services a call away, there are very little other places that can compete.

The problem is congestion between SpaceX and other launch providers for the limited range opportunities, and the red tape involved with a new development test program with some Ruds, that could affect other launch pads, with a lot of added red tape.  It is quite likely, cheaper, and easier to develop Boca Chica than to attempt to do the same thing at the Cape.  At Boca, they can run their schedule with only minimal interference from the government and things change to the FAA in control rather than NASA, and that is a good thing for the long term in space.

[danneely]

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.
Also, it would be an interesting field trip for Nasaspaceflight launch coverage team

Sadly for them, and anyone else hoping for a junket to a tropical paradise, ITAR says nope.

[Robotbeat]

This thread is a duplicate.

[zubenelgenubi]

This thread is a duplicate.

Moderator: Threads merged.

[edzieba]

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.

Well, apart from the need to built them there or ship them there, and to operate them there.

e.g. How many hundreds (or more) miles away are the nearest bulk LOX and LCH4 suppliers? What's the lead-time for 304L Stainless rolls? Is there a local workforce to train, or do you need to ship your existing crew across an ocean? Do you really want to fly every McGregor produced item (Raptors, cold-gas and future hot-gas thrusters, avionics, etc) across for every order? And for items that cannot be air-freighted, do you want the added lead-times for sea-freight?

[DistantTemple]

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.

Well, apart from the need to built them there or ship them there, and to operate them there.

e.g. How many hundreds (or more) miles away are the nearest bulk LOX and LCH4 suppliers? What's the lead-time for 304L Stainless rolls? Is there a local workforce to train, or do you need to ship your existing crew across an ocean? Do you really want to fly every McGregor produced item (Raptors, cold-gas and future hot-gas thrusters, avionics, etc) across for every order? And for items that cannot be air-freighted, do you want the added lead-times for sea-freight?

Assuming SX says "yes" and "were going ahead" say in June 2021.... Even at warp Elon speed it is going to be a little while before rockets will be built and launched there!

In say 3 years SpaceX will be well on the way to having Starship and SuperHeavy established. The vision of dozens becoming a hundred or more will be coming true. The new facility will be a large installation.....
Assuming Starships will be assembled there, but engines will not.
 - the design of SS and SH will be sufficiently solidified that site, buildings and large machinery can be largely correctly specified, and so planning, clearing, foundations, buildings and installations, can proceed in a well organised way. (as we are seeing with Giga Berlin)
 - Assuming SX continues with its existing supplier of stainless steel rolls - (I don't know if SX's rolls are in some way specially produced for them) then its just an occasional large shipment.
 - Engines, and all high tec items including all electronics, hydraulics, motors, valves, LOX and CH4 pipe parts will all be shipped from the US.
 - Items like the thrust structures, and down-comers could be made in the new facility, or (with more inconvenience) shipped. Its a planning and scheduling problem that is solved by manufacturing industries, including Tesla.... the surface shipping delay is only a problem when something goes wrong!
It would make a lot of sense to have an initial (largely) dedicated ship load of machines, ss-rolls, and a stock of several starship's worth of engines, batteries, thrust structures etc. for factory set-up.
A core imported team would manage and train the workforce. Remember Elon likes his "the machine that builds the machine", and is now into spawning gigafactories! Also there ARE skilled welders in the far east! (and much of the welding is going robitic .... I think!) 
Air freight is no problem, especially with the likely value and size of the orders!
Bulk CH4 by sea is a totally solved problem. Even thousands of miles is not a problem. The infrastructure is in place for LNG, and will easily accommodate a new large customer for CH4, as it will be good business to do so! LOX will most likely be produced on site (or close by) by SX or a contractor.

(Starships could go orbital to get there, but Super Heavy couldn't I think, and so would HAVE to be built there (or shipped - which would I think be expensive)

[steveleach]

The ITAR problem is solved by basically declaring the launch port a diplomatic premise. So they basically behave as in US soil. But that is also expensive. The question is if there's such demand for performance above Falcon 9's to equatorial orbits that justifies the investment and upkeep beyond making a bigger rocket. Give the bigger rocket that they are developing, I don't think this is something SpaceX would seriously think about.
Besides, there's a lot more to launching rocket than the latitude. SpaceX does has experience with equatorial remote location launch sites. And they certainly said that all the hassle and lack of infrastructure was not worth the hassle. KSC/CCAFS is probably the single best launch site in the world (not specifically for GTO nor Polar). You have everything. You want a contractor? You have them all at a few hours drive, or you can fly them from US soil on commercial flights all through the day. Any piece of equipment you need you can source in couple of days, and for general stuff like scaffolding, paint, cherry-pickers, hardware store stuff and such in hours. You simply can't do that anywhere else.

That's true, but with an equatorial site, cheap labour and a government bending over backwards to offer investment and subsidies they could in time create the world's best spaceport. One thing they would need is a high-profile, high-volume keystone customer which could be why they are courting SpaceX.

And it might be attractive to SpaceX if the US Government doesn't allow them to launch as often as they want from the sites they want. Or if congress slaps overbearing regulations on Starship to try to protect SLS.

Also, if KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world, why did SpaceX decide to do Starship in Boca Chica?

KSC/CCAFS is the best launch site in the world for the whole stack. Boca Chica is just a rocket development ground. They are their own range, among other things. So they are free to play. But if you actually have a satellite, and need suplies like storable propellants, sophisticated payload processing installations and equipment, having an expert on any possible subject available and being able to get repair parts and services a call away, there are very little other places that can compete.

The problem is congestion between SpaceX and other launch providers for the limited range opportunities, and the red tape involved with a new development test program with some Ruds, that could affect other launch pads, with a lot of added red tape.  It is quite likely, cheaper, and easier to develop Boca Chica than to attempt to do the same thing at the Cape.  At Boca, they can run their schedule with only minimal interference from the government and things change to the FAA in control rather than NASA, and that is a good thing for the long term in space.

Exactly. But BC is small, and there is a good sized town pretty close, not to mention the Mexican border.

Now imagine the Indonesian government sets aside much of the island for you. They give you a massive launch site and a massive build site, and build a port and an airport. They construct hotels, apartment blocks and office buildings. They then build road, rail and canal links between them all.

They build a university and recruit a lot of aerospace engineers from around the world as faculty, then ship in the brightest local school kids to study there.

They give tax breaks and incentives, not just to you, but also lots of other aerospace startups from around the world, to relocate.

And they promise even less interference than you get at BC.

All of this at the equator, which means you can launch more mass, and pick whatever inclination you like.

Would this tempt you?

[Robotbeat]

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.

Well, apart from the need to built them there or ship them there, and to operate them there.

e.g. How many hundreds (or more) miles away are the nearest bulk LOX and LCH4 suppliers? ...

Indonesia is a major LNG producer, actually one of the world’s first major LNG exporters, and is close to where Australia’s massive off-shore gas liquefier “Prelude” sits. And Indonesia has lots of geothermal energy (it’s made of volcanoes) plus is just about right on the equator so has lots of solar energy as well, so would be one of the best places to set up synthesized non-fossil methane production as well (combining solar and geothermal allows you to minimize the high capital cost associated with battery storage or operating electrolysis below 100% duty cycle).


This thread just shows how little most of the world knows about Indonesia, the 4th largest country in the world...

[Robotbeat]

SpaceX doesn’t actually have to build a launch site there. SpaceX could just park a floating launch facility 1-22km off the shore and Indonesia could provide local services (including energy/propellant and housing and medical and recreation, etc). So the SpaceX facility could remain US-flagged and perhaps even in international waters. ITAR/EAR need never become involved (altho that may not be too much a problem to do it).

[Robotbeat]

Sounds like paradise for Starship & Super Heavy.

Well, apart from the need to built them there or ship them there, and to operate them there.

e.g. How many hundreds (or more) miles away are the nearest bulk LOX and LCH4 suppliers? What's the lead-time for 304L Stainless rolls? Is there a local workforce to train, or do you need to ship your existing crew across an ocean? Do you really want to fly every McGregor produced item (Raptors, cold-gas and future hot-gas thrusters, avionics, etc) across for every order? And for items that cannot be air-freighted, do you want the added lead-times for sea-freight?

Use Starship E2E for logistics!

[baldusi]

Space launch is about payloads, not rockets. Equatorial is basically required only for GSO, which is what? 10 commercial launches per year? For anything else, 28deg is more than fine. Specially if they can dogleg from there.
Again, you launch payloads, spacecraft want lots of services, things fail or get displaced when shipped, things are forgotten, final integration always has issues.
Boca Chica is excellent for developing.

[Robotbeat]

Indonesia would be a fantastic site for launching propellant to high orbit, which is useful for lunar and Martian missions and will, in fact, be the dominant payload once Moon and Mars missions get into high gear. Most launches will be propellant.

[Lars-J]

I don't see this going anywhere, other than wishful thinking.

While there is a payload benefit from launching near the equator, that cost benefit (slightly more to orbit per launch) is:
A) exaggerated, and
B) more than compensated by the extra cost of setting up massive infrastructure at the site, and getting people and payloads to and from the site.

Sure, if they start Point to point flights, sure... But that won't happen anytime soon.

[groundbound]

Sure, if they start Point to point flights, sure... But that won't happen anytime soon.

How else are they going to get all that nickel back to the CONUS to build all those batteries? 

Never mind, don't answer that.

[Zed_Noir]

Sure, if they start Point to point flights, sure... But that won't happen anytime soon.

How else are they going to get all that nickel back to the CONUS to build all those batteries? 
....

You are sadly mistaken. SpaceX will not be sending nickel ore back to CONUS. More likely battery cells by the container loads. One must take advantage of the cheap local labor, easy access to raw materials and welcoming local governments to build a Gigafactory for 4680 batteries cells.

[DistantTemple]

I don't see this going anywhere, other than wishful thinking.

While there is a payload benefit from launching near the equator, that cost benefit (slightly more to orbit per launch) is:
A) exaggerated, and
B) more than compensated by the extra cost of setting up massive infrastructure at the site, and getting people and payloads to and from the site.

Sure, if they start Point to point flights, sure... But that won't happen anytime soon.

Is there a site where SX could routinely BOTH launch towards the East, AND land from orbit from the West! It would need no/low density population in both tracks, not just for risk of a crash, but for sonic booms!
If this is possible it would be a deal breaker... and revolutionary. If further it also allowed higher inclination launches and landings that makes it even better. An isolated island would be good. or a man made island, or an isthmus....

Additionally being able to launch fuel from both BC and Indonesia, would share the preparation and scheduling, but also double (ISTM) the essential orbital refuelling opportunities, making it easier to plan a sequence of orbital rendezvous for refuelling.
Refuelling on an equatorial orbit would be easy, and make that orbit more effective, but inclined orbits would have two daily options for refuelling, one from BC and one from Indonesia.
If incredibly launch was ALSO possible towards the South West, then the same orbit could be reached 12 hours later, meaning Indonesia alone could theoretically launch TWO refuelling trips to an SS in an inclined orbit daily!!!!
Apologies if this has been said upthread... I have read some of it but not all.
Also I am not an expert at orbital mechanics and may have dropped some clangers here.... IST make sense to me!!! 

[Slarty1080]

I can't see anything much happening on this in the short term at least. Mind you I suspect that Musk has made all the right noises without promising anything. He might file it away and dust it off in a few years to see if it works.

[DistantTemple]

I can't see anything much happening on this in the short term at least. Mind you I suspect that Musk has made all the right noises without promising anything. He might file it away and dust it off in a few years to see if it works.

Normally such a plan would be expected to take many years. But this is the Gigafactory man.... who can turn green fields or forest into a working factory in just one year! therefore yes I agree we may not see anything for a coupe of years.
However this very speed and the hoped mars cadence, along with the size of the Starlink constellations, and the rate of production at BC, suggest great strides forward in the next three years. By 2026 SpaceX could seriously NEED a launch complex  that is UNRESTRICTED including launch pads, and landing pads. If they are restricted to BC and 39A, and they have a significant issue with one of them it could seriously disrupt Mars launches and fuelling etc....

Having a look at Indonesia's suitability from 1st principles: the sea is shallow. There are many small islands. there are large gaps in many directions around many islands. There are also undersea islands that could have artificial structures/land built on them. Indonesia has had trade and political relationships with the US for a long time. (not all good). Indonesia is on the equator. It is 1/2 way around the world from Boca Chica. One of the few downsides is the ring of fire and the risk of earthquake, volcano and tsunami.

For SpaceX the ideal would be something like a long thin island so manufacturing can be separated from launch and landing, so life and work can go on there without sheltering, apart from expected sonic booms. It would be able to launch and land from any direction. The sea would be shallow enough to build a harbour etc. and lay pipelines. An ex military base would be good with some of thee facilities.

Where else in the world would SpaceX get this. And they are being "invited", and they can build battery mega factories using local ores!  I bet things start to happen quickly. In a year or two there will be some evidence.... and it will be able to support Mars launches in 2026.

And of course be a regional centre for point-to-point for SE Asia, and Australasia.

[RedLineTrain]

Just to be clear for those who haven't taken a close look at a map, Indonesia is an enormous country.  The location that was mooted is very remote, so is not useful for Starship point-to-point.  And since SpaceX appears to be moving toward floating spaceports, the location probably would offer nothing special for a 18 meter or 24 meter BFR.

[DistantTemple]

Just to be clear for those who haven't taken a close look at a map, Indonesia is an enormous country.  The location that was mooted is very remote, so is not useful for Starship point-to-point.  And since SpaceX appears to be moving toward floating spaceports, the location probably would offer nothing special for a 18 meter or 24 meter BFR.

Thankyou RedLineTrain I had a long study of the map but your comment sent me back to read every post above... and I was pleased the discover the island of "Biak" was mooted. It is here: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Biak/@-0.9101555,135.3118375,9z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x6803de5d19a7a55d:0x7f55e76fa89c107c!8m2!3d-1.0381022!4d135.9800848
Just to be clear, Indonesia's very enormity, its shallow seas and remote islands, make it good for unlimited launch and landing to a wide range of orbits. This is fantastic for refuelling.
I admit it seems poor for building a local workforce. I agree it is probably not a good destination for point to point, also yes marine platforms are expected to be used for launch and landing, especially point to point.
The location of "Biak" is some 40 miles from Japen Island, and some 80 miles from Papu, which appears to be lightly populated, so very frequent rocket launch and landing to any orbit is likely possible (including overflying Papu) . If SpaceX were manufacturing there it could fly in workers for a two week shift. CH4 is available by ship, as are all other supplies. I expect Musk will operate with even more freedom from regulation than at BC, which he seems to like. I hear your opinion, but see it differently myself.

[RedLineTrain]

But why not just launch the refueling trips from a platform off the coast of Texas?  I think the sea and air space are fairly amenable for most inclinations.

And the logistics are great there.  Next to an airport, large seaport, methane liquification plants, and cheap land.  Next to an already-constructed factory with sufficient labor force. Supportive local politics (so far).

[AC in NC]

But why not just launch the refueling trips from a platform off the coast of Texas?  I think the sea and air space are fairly amenable for most inclinations.

And the logistics are great there.  Next to an airport, large seaport, methane liquification plants, and cheap land.  Next to an already-constructed factory. Supportive local politics (so far).

Why do you think such a location could support most inclinations.  Everything I've seen about GOM launches is that inclinations are fairly limited.

[RedLineTrain]

GOM?

[DistantTemple]

GOM?

Took me a few minutes ... Gulf Of Mexico!

[DistantTemple]

But why not just launch the refueling trips from a platform off the coast of Texas?  I think the sea and air space are fairly amenable for most inclinations.

And the logistics are great there.  Next to an airport, large seaport, methane liquification plants, and cheap land.  Next to an already-constructed factory. Supportive local politics (so far).

Why do you think such a location could support most inclinations.  Everything I've seen about GOM launches is that inclinations are fairly limited.

I've not looked carefully offshore, but I understand there are plenty of oil installations. (and associated ship movements). The coast to the East, curving towards Houston, and in the South and SE Mexico all constrict launches. I don't know if the Yucatan peninsular can be overflown, I assume so if SS is approaching orbit? Then there is airspace and nearby Brownsville.
So a couple of launches a month, or one a week might seem OK in terms of local disruption, but if SX wanted to launch daily for 2 weeks, to launch and fuel two Mars bound ships, that would likely stretch the patience and good wishes of the area! And of course there is landing, with all returning SS tankers etc booming over Brownsville ... even if the landing pad is 20 miles offshore!
All of these will need official licences, road, and airspace closures...
Conversely I'm just guessing that on Biak, Indonesia may be able to offer SX more comprehensive blanket airspace closure/control, and freedom to launch (not quite) with abandon, and in any case such launches would not be inconveniencing many!
Say if SX launched the said two Mars bound SS's  a few days apart from BC, then Biak could launch and land maybe 4 TIMES A DAY to refuel them both in just a few days. If not in 2024, then 2026.

[Danderman]

I vaguely recall that launching to Mars has no benefit from equatorial launch sites.

[RedLineTrain]

But why not just launch the refueling trips from a platform off the coast of Texas?  I think the sea and air space are fairly amenable for most inclinations.

And the logistics are great there.  Next to an airport, large seaport, methane liquification plants, and cheap land.  Next to an already-constructed factory. Supportive local politics (so far).

Why do you think such a location could support most inclinations.  Everything I've seen about GOM launches is that inclinations are fairly limited.

I've not looked carefully offshore, but I understand there are plenty of oil installations. (and associated ship movements). The coast to the East, curving towards Houston, and in the South and SE Mexico all constrict launches. I don't know if the Yucatan peninsular can be overflown, I assume so if SS is approaching orbit? Then there is airspace and nearby Brownsville.
So a couple of launches a month, or one a week might seem OK in terms of local disruption, but if SX wanted to launch daily for 2 weeks, to launch and fuel two Mars bound ships, that would likely stretch the patience and good wishes of the area! And of course there is landing, with all returning SS tankers etc booming over Brownsville ... even if the landing pad is 20 miles offshore!
All of these will need official licences, road, and airspace closures...
Conversely I'm just guessing that on Biak, Indonesia may be able to offer SX more comprehensive blanket airspace closure/control, and freedom to launch (not quite) with abandon, and in any case such launches would not be inconveniencing many!
Say if SX launched the said two Mars bound SS's  a few days apart from BC, then Biak could launch and land maybe 4 TIMES A DAY to refuel them both in just a few days. If not in 2024, then 2026.

What we are looking at is more or less a permanent airspace and naval area prohibition off the coast of Boca Chica.  It is probably doable after Starship has built a track record.  The aspect that I am least sure of is the naval vessels in the Gulf of Mexico, including oil platforms.  I am guessing that Starship will not dwell too long over any Instantaneous Impact Point of concern, but an analysis is needed and I doubt a back-of-the-envelope calculation would do.  I think that Super Heavy stages earlier than Falcon, which will help some.

I doubt the Boca Chica trajectory analysis of that third party. But we can get into that in the Starship threads.

In any event, yes Biak would be better in some respects. But the logistical negatives are pretty enormous and are worth strenuously avoiding. I am confident that SpaceX would do it only if absolutely necessary.  And even then I would bet that a platform or two off the coast of Vieques or something would be better.

[Barley]

I vaguely recall that launching to Mars has no benefit from equatorial launch sites.

Considerations for a direct trajectory and a refueled trajectory are likely to be different.

If nothing else an equatorial launch site means you don't have to worry about once a day instantaneous launch windows for rendezvous.  That may or may not matter depending on a lot of operational details.

[Lar]

Disclaimer: I have a vested interest. My wife is from Indonesia, most years I spend 2-4 weeks there and I love the place. I haven't been to PNG yet but it's on the list[1]. So of course I'd like it to happen.

I see an equatorial launch site in Asia as a very strong possibility by the time we get to where SpaceX has 5-10 launch sites[2] . Others have outlined a lot of advantages. And disadvantages.  But the next site after Boca Chica? Probably not.  (strong ability to supply LNG short term and good solar longer term are compelling, though, which is why it's not next but on the shortlist)

This might be sweetener one way or the other (for some deal or other) now but something real later. There will need to be regulatory changes on both sides. I expect Musk will want waivers for local content requirements before he'll site a Tesla plant, he'd surely want some changes to site a launch facility. Even a US flagged one in international waters with a logistics base in PNG 25km away. 

1 - I have 8 islands visited so far and 600+ to go but PNG is well up there
2 - It's coming, just not right away... but the diaspora / space industrialization phase of our civilization is coming. and sooner than many of us think.

[Vanspace]

This proposal solves a lot of major headaches for all sides. Tesla, SpaceX, Indonesia and the US.

Tesla needs that nickle now. It does not need another battery or car plant with two of each already being built. They can likely spin out a sub assembly factory like the entertainment system, or utility megapack enclosures but they just don't need a gigafactory in that area for a while.

SpaceX is going to Mars (by 2024) and will need several offshore launch sites with 30 mile exclusion zones, most of which will just launch fuel tankers. Buying, outfitting, permitting and placement of the rigs in less than 3 years is much more likely with strong government support.

Indonesia's economy is strongly dependant on resource extraction. In addition to the vast amounts of nickle, it is a major oil exporter. They are smart enough to see that if Elon gets the nickle, he will severely hurt the oil industry. They also can't be seen as allowing foreigners to exploit resources without getting something major in exchange. From a pure jobs point of view the number of jobs mining and refining nickle will never come close to the oil jobs Tesla will kill. A battery plant with a couple hundred jobs would be just a figleaf over otherwise "obscene" exploitation. On the other hand, trading nickle for a space age industry and a path to the stars while also gaining national pride.... Yeah that will guarantee an election or two.

Like him or not, Biden will be receptive to any international proposal that demonstrates the US is not moving towards isolationist policies. He will also be looking to counteract the anti-Muslim rhetoric. Finally, from a foreign policy perspective, the US is in strong need of "Good Samaritan" economic projects to act as a counterpart to China's Belt and Road initiative. "Leading all of Humanity to the Stars" is a very good fit. Promoting spaceports as technological wealth sharing while building up alliances is pretty solid old school politics.

For all 4 parties, reaching an agreement would help several major current problems.

There are two superficial roadblocks.

Its ITAR not ITAB really is the correct way to look at it. Application of the regulations is fundamentally political and only secondarily about proliferation. Even more so as nothing on Starship is particularly useful as military technology. Cryogenic Booster class engines are simply not useful as military weapons. Which is why the US relied on Russian engines for ten years. The software for flight and control is airgapped and closely guarded by SpaceX but would have very little use except to competitors or saboteurs. Military rockets don't need to land, belly flop, aerobrake. boost back burn or any of the other things Starship software does. ITAR will apply but in this case I don't think any general is going to object if the politicians want to do this.

Local Space Infrastructure in Indonesia is lacking compared to Florida or California but is reasonably comparable to Brownsville Texas a couple years ago. Perfectly capable of oil projects and building water towers but no way they can do space. More of a medium term problem is building infrastructure near the launch site. This is a two edged sword, note that local infrastructure being too close is why SpaceX can't launch three times a day from Boca or the Cape. For tanker operations, there only needs to be the launch platform and a 15,000 ton per day propellant facility. Payload processing and eventually Starship manufacturing could readily be added in later phases.

All in all, this proposal makes a lot of sense and I hope they get it done.

[chopsticks]

Disclaimer: I have a vested interest. My wife is from Indonesia, most years I spend 2-4 weeks there and I love the place. I haven't been to PNG yet but it's on the list[1]. So of course I'd like it to happen.

That's awesome. I think more people should think more internationally about this subject. If this works out, I don't expect it to happen overnight, but I think this would be great. I imagine the weather is pretty nice there year round as well? I haven't looked into this location, but rockets do need nice weather.

All in all, this proposal makes a lot of sense and I hope they get it done.

What you said. I think this would be a great thing as well for international cooperation, and would love for there to be more spaceports in the world. Indonesia had never crossed my mind, but it makes a lot of sense. I don't know if this will work out, but I think it would be really neat if it did.

[Lar]

Disclaimer: I have a vested interest. My wife is from Indonesia, most years I spend 2-4 weeks there and I love the place. I haven't been to PNG yet but it's on the list[1]. So of course I'd like it to happen.

That's awesome. I think more people should think more internationally about this subject. If this works out, I don't expect it to happen overnight, but I think this would be great. I imagine the weather is pretty nice there year round as well? I haven't looked into this location, but rockets do need nice weather.

It's tropical. Sometimes it can be sweltering hot but close to sea level you'll NEVER have to worry about being too cold to launch. There are monsoons sometimes, and there might be tropical cyclones. PNG is at the east end of the archipelago so there's open ocean for typhoons to build up and head west. ... That's a bad weather day, but rare...  other than that the weather should not be TOO bad. Earthquakes are a concern everywhere in Indonesia though.

[SciNews]

The New York Times - Will Indonesia Edge Its Way into the Space Race?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/16/business/indonesia-spaceport-elon-musk.html
"Leaders of the Biak tribe say building a spaceport on the site would mean cutting trees in a protected forest, disturbing the habitat of endangered birds and evicting the Abrauw."
"The Indonesian officials who support the project say Biak, just 70 miles south of the Equator and facing the Pacific, would be ideal for launching rockets."

[mrhuggy]

Indonesia would make a great place for rocket launching and manufacturing. They have a skilled workforce they have a aviation manufacturing business building their own planes and parts for other companies. They are in a good location for launching both northwards and to the east.

However they places that are usable are remote away form the major manufacturing areas and are in places that are having trouble with islamic extremists. The Philippines have the same benefits and problems as Indonesia.

Now if you wanted to do something like SpaceX there is 3 countries that would be viable in position, skilled workforce and  stableness and those would be India, Brazil and Oman/UAE.

[HoratioNelson]

I don't think Indonesia is safe enough for foreign investment for projects on the scale of a Starbase.

See https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-investment-climate-statements/indonesia/:

In 2012, Indonesia banned the export of raw minerals, dramatically increased the divestment requirements for foreign mining companies, and required major mining companies to renegotiate their contracts of work with the government.

However, foreign investors bringing aircraft to Indonesia to serve the aviation sector have faced difficulty in utilizing Cape Town Convention provisions to recover aircraft leased to Indonesian companies.  Foreign owners of leased aircraft that have become the subject of contractual lease disputes with Indonesian lessees have been unable to recover their aircraft in certain circumstances.

Corruption also continues to plague Indonesia’s judiciary, with graft investigations involving senior judges and court staffs.  Many businesses note that the judiciary is susceptible to influence from outside parties.  Certain companies have claimed that the court system often does not provide the necessary recourse for resolving property and contractual disputes and that cases that would be adjudicated in civil courts in other jurisdictions sometimes result in criminal charges in Indonesia.

In addition, companies find Indonesia to have a poor track record on the legal enforcement of contracts, and civil disputes are sometimes criminalized.  Government Regulation No. 79/2010 opened the door for the government to remove recoverable costs from production sharing contracts.  Indonesia has also required mining companies to renegotiate their contracts of work to include higher royalties, more divestment to local partners, more local content, and domestic processing of mineral ore.

So 9 years ago, after international corporations spent billions investing in mines in Indonesia, they were told they couldn't export their ore and had to sell 51% of their shares to Indonesia... I doubt Mr. Musk is interested in owning 49% of a spaceport where it's only legal to launch Indonesian rockets...