SpaceX is one of the RDOF Auction Winners

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

Even though I think we are getting a little to far afield for this thread.

Frequency reuse spot pattern:
- Each spot of a given frequency is not adjacent to another spot of the same frequency.
- It requires at least 4 separate frequencies to be able to reuse frequencies.
- Use of QAM or QPSK allows for multiple bits per Hz of frequency bandwidth used. Such that 256QAM using 125MHz of bandwidth per channel generates a bit rate per channel of 1Gbps. Thus you need 500MHz of frequency bandwidth to support 4 separate frequency channels each of 1Gbps data rates. Note is that there is a 500 MHz down and 500MHz up frquency allocation at the Ku band for Starlink.
Spot Patterns
F1 F2 F3 F4 F1 F2 F3 F4
F3 F4 F1 F2 F3 F4 F1 F2
F1 F2 F3 F4 F1 F2 F3 F4
F3 F4 F1 F2 F3 F4 F1 F2
F1 F2 F3 F4 F1 F2 F3 F4
F3 F4 F1 F2 F3 F4 F1 F2
F1 F2 F3 F4 F1 F2 F3 F4
F3 F4 F1 F2 F3 F4 F1 F2

4 frequencies but 64 spot beams. An 8X frequency reuse factor in this example.

[vsatman]

Better just explain how antenna on the satellite will understand between two signals on the same frequency of the Ku band (500 MHz in which 8 beams of 60 MHz are currently operating) coming from two different terminals. Now in satellite communication it is radio interference (jamming)

Because a phased array will only have all the antenna elements in phase if the signal is coming from only a certain area in the sky. All other areas will be out of phase and thus not highly amplified.

You persistently tell me about the receive at the user terminal, but above I spoke exclusively about the antenna on the satellite (it is works in the 500 MHz band). And according to your words,  Antenna will receive N signals at the same time at the same frequency from UT in N beams.

[vsatman]

Such that 256QAM using 125MHz of bandwidth per channel generates a bit rate per channel of 1Gbps.

You forgot to mention just one little thing - what signal-to-noise ratio is needed for 256QAM. (it seems to be around 36 dB) let me remind you that now the StarLink user terminal has 9 dB, since 3 dB is 2 times .
Ttat is, the size of the antenna on the user terminal needs to be increased by only 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2х2 = 512 times . And we will get the size 2 times larger than a football field.....

[Robotbeat]

Better just explain how antenna on the satellite will understand between two signals on the same frequency of the Ku band (500 MHz in which 8 beams of 60 MHz are currently operating) coming from two different terminals. Now in satellite communication it is radio interference (jamming)

Because a phased array will only have all the antenna elements in phase if the signal is coming from only a certain area in the sky. All other areas will be out of phase and thus not highly amplified.

You persistently tell me about the receive at the user terminal, but above I spoke exclusively about the antenna on the satellite (it is works in the 500 MHz band). And according to your words,  Antenna will receive N signals at the same time at the same frequency from UT in N beams.

It works basically the same on both ends as both ends have phased arrays and transmit and receive work the same way for a filled phased array.

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

Such that 256QAM using 125MHz of bandwidth per channel generates a bit rate per channel of 1Gbps.

You forgot to mention just one little thing - what signal-to-noise ratio is needed for 256QAM. (it seems to be around 36 dB) let me remind you that now the StarLink user terminal has 9 dB, since 3 dB is 2 times .
Ttat is, the size of the antenna on the user terminal needs to be increased by only 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2х2 = 512 times . And we will get the size 2 times larger than a football field.....

This is getting way to far down into detail designs. But a 256QAM is an 8 bits encoded into a single HZ. Such that you need 3DB every time you double the number of bits. 2X2X2 = 8 bits. Or 9DB. The other item is that Starlink already is using the multiple bits per Hz data stuffing technique with its current system. So what is being described other than reusing the frequencies by physically pointing separation of the beams is identical to the current system.

Also nearly 20 years ago cell phones were doing direct RF conversion at 2.4GHz Analog to Digital signal conversion. No IF stage. Just an RF preamp then the signal is digitized and then all further signal detection and manipulation was done all in digital. I reiterate this was being done 20 years ago in cell phones.

Each element of the phased array has its own RF amp located next to the antenna element. Then for each beam direction to be resolved a separate signal line then wanders around to a central point where for that beam direction the signals from all the elements meet up and are added together by an multi input RF Op Amp. There is one of these for each beam. The signal lines are precisely measured for their lengths to provide the phase angle differences to create a synthetic aperture at the desired vector direction from the phased array surface. The only limit to how many different beam directions that can be setup is primarily limited by "real estate": the space for the signal lines and the microelectronics + handful of discrete components.

This is a description of a multi beam phased array with fixed non changing directional beams. There are other methods to make it possible to be able to electronically stear each of the beams separately. But this takes more hardware and more space which may not be available in the size of the array. At this time Starlink would not really need to perform the dynamic steering of the beams so the simple solution will work.

For further detailed design discussion of digital domain controlled microwave dynamic steared multi simultaneous beam forming phased arrays I suggest at least a different thread.

[Robotbeat]

Pretty sure Starlink uses some sort of intermediate frequency.

[vsatman]

But a 256QAM is an 8 bits encoded into a single HZ. Such that you need 3DB every time you double the number of bits. 2X2X2 = 8 bits. Or 9DB. The other item is that Starlink already is using the multiple bits per Hz data stuffing technique with its current system.

8 bit/Hz  is only in theory . Real  is about 6,3
https://www.cablefax.com/archives/spectral-efficiency

and again what  Signal /Noise ratio you need for   256QAM??
Now StarLink   terminal has 9 dB - this is only  8PSK... or 3 bit/Hz..

[su27k]

Parking lots and airports don’t count for rural broadband funding, FCC tells SpaceX

The Federal Communications Commission told SpaceX and other companies on Monday that the billions in rural broadband subsidies it doled out last year can’t be used in already connected areas like “parking lots and well-served urban areas,” citing complaints. The commission, in an effort to “clean up” its subsidy auction program, offered the companies a chance to rescind their funding requests from areas that already have service.

The companies that got the subsidies must do the work to determine they qualify for the money, wrote Michael Janson, director of the FCC’s Rural Broadband Task Force, in a letter addressed to SpaceX’s finance director David Finlay. Similar letters, first reported by Bloomberg, were sent to other recipients of the commission’s Rural Digital Opportunity Fund, a $9.2 billion auction to expand broadband into rural areas that lack or have no service.

[thirtyone]

Parking lots and airports don’t count for rural broadband funding, FCC tells SpaceX

The Federal Communications Commission told SpaceX and other companies on Monday that the billions in rural broadband subsidies it doled out last year can’t be used in already connected areas like “parking lots and well-served urban areas,” citing complaints. The commission, in an effort to “clean up” its subsidy auction program, offered the companies a chance to rescind their funding requests from areas that already have service.

The companies that got the subsidies must do the work to determine they qualify for the money, wrote Michael Janson, director of the FCC’s Rural Broadband Task Force, in a letter addressed to SpaceX’s finance director David Finlay. Similar letters, first reported by Bloomberg, were sent to other recipients of the commission’s Rural Digital Opportunity Fund, a $9.2 billion auction to expand broadband into rural areas that lack or have no service.

I'm actually a little concerned about this one. They better look at these areas very closely. Many people who are underserved are often in strange places no one thinks anyone's living in or seem like they're already covered. I know someone in one of the biggest cities in the US, which you'd think means everyone has Internet. But they happen to be living in a low income public housing area near a highway onramp, with a LOT of characteristics that sound like what this group is complaining about:

$111 million of SpaceX’s $886 million share, the report found, was going to well-served urban areas and random patches of land with no infrastructure, from thin highway medians and empty patches of grass to New York City parking lots and big-box stores.

You wouldn't know it existed unless you knew to physically come down and ask people. Due to infinite amounts of bureaucracy and really because everyone forgets the poor, there is virtually no good Internet of any sort there, even at $100/month (remember - that is still much, much cheaper than moving to non-low-income housing here...). On a map it's close enough to populated areas you probably couldn't imagine there wasn't Internet there.

They could not get Internet to help with their classes and had to study elsewhere to get work done. I actually checked - it is a strange plot of land which every mobile provider claims they have coverage - but we've checked with a few people with different providers and indeed the coverage is so poor (and/or there are so many people) that you would be lucky to get more than a few kbps there, no matter the provider. No one is pointing their antennas in that direction. Due to bureaucracy (the complex is owned by an underfunded department in the city) / no one being able to pay, they couldn't get cable, fiber or any other lines run into the public housing complex. They only have landline (so dialup) but most providers are dropping dialup support these days...and too far for reliable DSL to the point where the kbps mobile internet was more worthwhile (at least they were also getting fast Internet when they were elsewhere in the city). I honestly didn't realize how bad it was until I ran into this particular person, but RDOF should really also cover these areas. It is a very small investment to potentially help a lot of people get out of poverty.

Starlink would be worthwhile short-circuit through all the red tape to run a single stupid cable into the complex, and maybe help give some people who are really trying to get into a better place in life. I actually mentioned this a while ago, and it would definitely be great if they had coverage, especially with a reduced setup fee.

[su27k]

https://twitter.com/DiaMariesbeat/status/1471888782509199366

My latest: Of the top 10 RDOF bidders, only Windstream & some members of the Rural Electric Cooperative Consortium have had winning bids approved by the FCC in a “ready to authorize” notice. That means no LTD Broadband, Charter, Starlink yet. #broadband

https://twitter.com/RonEagleson/status/1472428260285771784

"According to Starlink Services, it does not expect the FCC to act on its pending long-form applications until the second quarter of 2022" from Order - 3023580-Law 10-28-21 Starlink's petition for reconsideration. https://puc.pa.gov/docket/P-2021-3023580

[Lar]

su27k, what do you (or anyone) think that means?

[su27k]

su27k, what do you (or anyone) think that means?

I read a few documents in the docket, it seems the delay is because SpaceX is still negotiating with 3rd party vendor for providing VoIP service. RDOF requires winner to provide a phone service along with broadband.

[vsatman]

su27k, what do you (or anyone) think that means?

I read a few documents in the docket, it seems the delay is because SpaceX is still negotiating with 3rd party vendor for providing VoIP service. RDOF requires winner to provide a phone service along with broadband.

just VoiP telephony is not a problem.
For an ETS license it is needed, when a subscriber calls 112, the call is routed to an 112` operator  in the nearest settlement.
In classic wired networks, this is simple, unlike VoIP

[Lar]

I am going to assume that "112" is the equivalent of "911" in the US?  ... an emergency contact point local to where you are that can dispatch assets (police/fire/ambulance/etc) to your location.

This is a solved problem for VOIP and cell, I thought.

[niwax]

I am going to assume that "112" is the equivalent of "911" in the US?  ... an emergency contact point local to where you are that can dispatch assets (police/fire/ambulance/etc) to your location.

This is a solved problem for VOIP and cell, I thought.

112 is the international standard number, if you happen to be in the US while dialing 112, the network will route it to the nearest 911 operator.

[DanClemmensen]

I am going to assume that "112" is the equivalent of "911" in the US?  ... an emergency contact point local to where you are that can dispatch assets (police/fire/ambulance/etc) to your location.

This is a solved problem for VOIP and cell, I thought.

It's fairly well solved for cell, because the cell tower has some idea of the cell phone's location. It is poorly solved for VOIP, because it generally requires the VOIP user to voluntarily enter the location of the VOIP phone. Starlink (and other non-GEO constellations) actually have an easier technical problem to solve, because the Starlink user equipment must have a precise location for the terminal to operate at all, even closer than a cell tower knows the location of a cell phone. So, if someone just plugs a VOIP unit into a Starlink user terminal as just another IP device, you get the same problems as any other VOIP unit on any IP network. However, If SpaceX provides a more customized solution, then it can find the proper emergency call center associated with the latitude and longitude of the user station. This will remain true even if in the future the Starlink user terminal is mounted on a vehicle.

[vsatman]

I am going to assume that "112" is the equivalent of "911" in the US?  ... an emergency contact point local to where you are that can dispatch assets (police/fire/ambulance/etc) to your location.

This is a solved problem for VOIP and cell, I thought.

Starlink (and other non-GEO constellations) actually have an easier technical problem to solve, because the Starlink user equipment must have a precise location for the terminal to operate at all, even closer than a cell tower knows the location of a cell phone. So, if someone just plugs a VOIP unit into a Starlink user terminal as just another IP device, you get the same problems as any other VOIP unit on any IP network. However, If SpaceX provides a more customized solution, then it can find the proper emergency call center associated with the latitude and longitude of the user station. This will remain true even if in the future the Starlink user terminal is mounted on a vehicle.

Yes, you wrote everything correctly, but even if SpaceS has a mark where the subscriber is located, it must transfer this call to the local PSTN (Public Switched Telephone Network) provider who will transfer the call to the appropriate 911 police / fire department office. And here the question is on what conditions this local provider will agree to receive calls from SpaceX and for how many dollars to upgrade its network for this it want...

[DanClemmensen]

I am going to assume that "112" is the equivalent of "911" in the US?  ... an emergency contact point local to where you are that can dispatch assets (police/fire/ambulance/etc) to your location.

This is a solved problem for VOIP and cell, I thought.

Starlink (and other non-GEO constellations) actually have an easier technical problem to solve, because the Starlink user equipment must have a precise location for the terminal to operate at all, even closer than a cell tower knows the location of a cell phone. So, if someone just plugs a VOIP unit into a Starlink user terminal as just another IP device, you get the same problems as any other VOIP unit on any IP network. However, If SpaceX provides a more customized solution, then it can find the proper emergency call center associated with the latitude and longitude of the user station. This will remain true even if in the future the Starlink user terminal is mounted on a vehicle.

Yes, you wrote everything correctly, but even if SpaceS has a mark where the subscriber is located, it must transfer this call to the local PSTN (Public Switched Telephone Network) provider who will transfer the call to the appropriate 911 police / fire department office. And here the question is on what conditions this local provider will agree to receive calls from SpaceX and for how many dollars to upgrade its network for this it want...

Sure, but at the technical level all of those interfaces are well specified, well understood, and already in use for VOIP. This means that problems will be primarily administrative and contractual, not technical, except perhaps for cumbersome lethargic responses within the IT departments of the PSTN providers, where simply updating the interface database can take months.

[su27k]

SpaceX loses $900 million in rural broadband subsidies

paceX has lost its bid for nearly $900 million in rural broadband subsidies for its Starlink broadband service.

The Federal Communications Commission said Aug. 10 that SpaceX had failed to show it could meet requirements for unlocking the funds, which aim to incentivize expanding broadband services to unserved areas across the United States.

“We must put scarce universal service dollars to their best possible use as we move into a digital future that demands ever more powerful and faster networks,” FCC chair Jessica Rosenworcel said in a statement.

“We cannot afford to subsidize ventures that are not delivering the promised speeds or are not likely to meet program requirements.”

[su27k]

https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1562433655578193921

The FCC’s abrupt decision to reverse an $885 million infrastructure award to Elon Musk’s Starlink is concerning.

For one, the decision is without legal justification.

For another, it will leave rural Americans waiting on the wrong side of the digital divide.

My statement: