Author Topic: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)  (Read 7959 times)

Offline Asteroza

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Hat tip to Christian Frhr. von der Ropp ,


Looks like somebody in China is gearing up for a Starlink competitor, along with taking some cues from OneWeb?


The new constellation is allegedly called GW with 12992 sats, operating under callsigns GW GW-1 and GW-S. First phase/shell is called GW-A59 (with 3 sub-constellations), second phase is GW-2 (with 4 sub-constellations). Recent ITU filings suggest GW is Ka/V/Q band, GW-1 is Ka/L, and GW-2 is a smorgasbord of C/X/Ka/Q/V+ADS-B & AIS.

If this is real, that's gonna make for another megaconstellation (4th?)
« Last Edit: 03/12/2021 02:54 am by Asteroza »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #1 on: 10/05/2020 08:33 am »
I presume GW stands for Great Wall.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #2 on: 10/16/2020 09:33 pm »
A (machine-aided) translated version, not that there was much to translate.

Offline su27k

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #3 on: 11/20/2020 04:33 am »
I assume this is the same constellation in the ITU filing: China launching state rival to Elon Musk’s SpaceX

Quote
China Newsweek, a publication run by the official China News Service, reported in October that China Telecom’s satellite communications arm had kickstarted an ambitious launch plan for 10,000 satellites in the next five to ten years.

The magazine cited Ministry of Industry and Information Technology sources as saying that a giant state enterprise would soon be formed in Shanghai to coalesce efforts, resources and assets under a sole operator of China’s future satellite communications network, tentatively to be named China StarNet.

Quote
At the same time, there is reportedly dissent among policy advisors about whether StarNet and its related launches are really needed now that 4G and 5G networks operated by China Telecom, China Mobile and China Unicom cover most big cities and even more sparsely populated regions like Tibet, Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia. 

Xinhua quoted experts who doubted the commercial viability of China’s proposed version of Starlink. They said SpaceX could be expected to recoup its hefty investments from its growing user base across America’s agrarian states, where cellular coverage is still lacking.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #4 on: 03/11/2021 11:09 pm »
I presume GW stands for Great Wall.

Hat tip to Christian again, the GW name source has been determined...

It appears to be Guowang/国网 (literal translation is state grid)

https://news.cnstock.com/news,bwkx-202103-4667755.htm

Quote
"Bao Weimin, member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference and director of the Science and Technology Committee of the Aerospace Science and Technology Group, said in an interview with a reporter from Shanghai Securities News on March 7: For satellites, the state will also set up a 'State Grid' ('Guowang') company, which will be responsible for the overall planning and operation of space Internet construction."

Offline CameronD

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #5 on: 03/21/2021 09:40 pm »
Quote
"Bao Weimin, member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference and director of the Science and Technology Committee of the Aerospace Science and Technology Group, said in an interview with a reporter from Shanghai Securities News on March 7: For satellites, the state will also set up a 'State Grid' ('Guowang') company, which will be responsible for the overall planning and operation of space Internet construction."

For a country that really does not like it's citizens browsing the Internet, this is certainly an interesting development and with thousands more sats in LEO to navigate through, launching anything much in future could be a challenge (isn't there enough space junk up there already?)

From my reading of this morning's fortune cookie: I predict conspiracy theories will abound in great numbers!
« Last Edit: 03/21/2021 09:42 pm by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline daedalus1

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #6 on: 03/21/2021 10:00 pm »
Quote
"Bao Weimin, member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference and director of the Science and Technology Committee of the Aerospace Science and Technology Group, said in an interview with a reporter from Shanghai Securities News on March 7: For satellites, the state will also set up a 'State Grid' ('Guowang') company, which will be responsible for the overall planning and operation of space Internet construction."

For a country that really does not like it's citizens browsing the Internet, this is certainly an interesting development and with thousands more sats in LEO to navigate through, launching anything much in future could be a challenge (isn't there enough space junk up there already?)

From my reading of this morning's fortune cookie: I predict conspiracy theories will abound in great numbers!

They don't have a problem with its citizens browsing the internet behind the great fire wall. Everything they don't want you to see is blocked.

Offline CameronD

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #7 on: 03/21/2021 11:02 pm »
Quote
"Bao Weimin, member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference and director of the Science and Technology Committee of the Aerospace Science and Technology Group, said in an interview with a reporter from Shanghai Securities News on March 7: For satellites, the state will also set up a 'State Grid' ('Guowang') company, which will be responsible for the overall planning and operation of space Internet construction."

For a country that really does not like it's citizens browsing the Internet, this is certainly an interesting development and with thousands more sats in LEO to navigate through, launching anything much in future could be a challenge (isn't there enough space junk up there already?)

From my reading of this morning's fortune cookie: I predict conspiracy theories will abound in great numbers!

They don't have a problem with its citizens browsing the internet behind the great fire wall. Everything they don't want you to see is blocked.

Right.  So who are their customers?  Just Chinese citizens??  Starlink has an entire planet full of potential customers to fund their world-wide open/unrestricted Internet network (including Chinese citizens wanting out of the great firewall), whereas these guys plan to add a constellation of 10,000 satellites spanning the globe with restricted/monitored Internet access?   That doesn't pass the smell test.
« Last Edit: 03/21/2021 11:05 pm by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #8 on: 03/21/2021 11:43 pm »
Don’t think of it as a “normal” busines. Making a profit it not the point here. It would be nice but it is not the main objective, I suspect.

Offline daedalus1

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #9 on: 03/22/2021 06:17 am »
Quote
"Bao Weimin, member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference and director of the Science and Technology Committee of the Aerospace Science and Technology Group, said in an interview with a reporter from Shanghai Securities News on March 7: For satellites, the state will also set up a 'State Grid' ('Guowang') company, which will be responsible for the overall planning and operation of space Internet construction."

For a country that really does not like it's citizens browsing the Internet, this is certainly an interesting development and with thousands more sats in LEO to navigate through, launching anything much in future could be a challenge (isn't there enough space junk up there already?)

From my reading of this morning's fortune cookie: I predict conspiracy theories will abound in great numbers!

They don't have a problem with its citizens browsing the internet behind the great fire wall. Everything they don't want you to see is blocked.

Right.  So who are their customers?  Just Chinese citizens??  Starlink has an entire planet full of potential customers to fund their world-wide open/unrestricted Internet network (including Chinese citizens wanting out of the great firewall), whereas these guys plan to add a constellation of 10,000 satellites spanning the globe with restricted/monitored Internet access?   That doesn't pass the smell test.

The whole world can still be it's business, the fire wall is only used in China.

Offline LiamS

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #10 on: 03/22/2021 01:42 pm »
Right.  So who are their customers?  Just Chinese citizens??  Starlink has an entire planet full of potential customers to fund their world-wide open/unrestricted Internet network (including Chinese citizens wanting out of the great firewall), whereas these guys plan to add a constellation of 10,000 satellites spanning the globe with restricted/monitored Internet access?   That doesn't pass the smell test.

its likely a cost effective way to serve poor countries for free (or for a very nominal fee) to improve relations between countries in places like Africa with China. Of course then you also get the benefit of serving citizens in remote locations without connectivity in China, and the massive cherry on top is you get a worldwide internet service that the Chinese government can use for military operations, removing the possibility of adversaries cutting a few undersea cables and then effectively isolating the Chinese mainland and any deployed forces aside from a couple of shaky sat links.



Offline noogie

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #11 on: 03/22/2021 07:58 pm »
Right.  So who are their customers?  Just Chinese citizens??  Starlink has an entire planet full of potential customers to fund their world-wide open/unrestricted Internet network (including Chinese citizens wanting out of the great firewall), whereas these guys plan to add a constellation of 10,000 satellites spanning the globe with restricted/monitored Internet access?   That doesn't pass the smell test.

its likely a cost effective way to serve poor countries for free (or for a very nominal fee) to improve relations between countries in places like Africa with China. Of course then you also get the benefit of serving citizens in remote locations without connectivity in China, and the massive cherry on top is you get a worldwide internet service that the Chinese government can use for military operations, removing the possibility of adversaries cutting a few undersea cables and then effectively isolating the Chinese mainland and any deployed forces aside from a couple of shaky sat links.

The great firewall can be sold as a feature not as a bug to autocratic regimes in places like Iran, Myanmar etc who have underserved rural areas they want to develop internet links but also don't want pesky dissent or separatism, etc

Offline Asteroza

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #12 on: 03/22/2021 11:47 pm »
Right.  So who are their customers?  Just Chinese citizens??  Starlink has an entire planet full of potential customers to fund their world-wide open/unrestricted Internet network (including Chinese citizens wanting out of the great firewall), whereas these guys plan to add a constellation of 10,000 satellites spanning the globe with restricted/monitored Internet access?   That doesn't pass the smell test.

its likely a cost effective way to serve poor countries for free (or for a very nominal fee) to improve relations between countries in places like Africa with China. Of course then you also get the benefit of serving citizens in remote locations without connectivity in China, and the massive cherry on top is you get a worldwide internet service that the Chinese government can use for military operations, removing the possibility of adversaries cutting a few undersea cables and then effectively isolating the Chinese mainland and any deployed forces aside from a couple of shaky sat links.

The great firewall can be sold as a feature not as a bug to autocratic regimes in places like Iran, Myanmar etc who have underserved rural areas they want to develop internet links but also don't want pesky dissent or separatism, etc


While selling chinese information controls to other countries can be a money maker, the problem is the terminal sizes and the frequencies listed. If you were specifically targeting africa or third world countries, the main touchpoint of local citizens to the internet is low cost android smartphones. Which would imply you want systems that are accessible via conventional smartphones, which leads you to true cellular satellite constellation systems like Lynk.Global and AST&Science instead. GW is looking to be a more conventional satellite system like OneWeb, plus AIS/ADB surveillance and a substitute for GPS.

If you were designing the system to specifically support backhaul for cell towers, such that a very low power cell tower basestation can operate on solar/wind power alone and have backhaul serviced by GW, this would allow rural connectivity but then suffers from tower deployment costs. Still, a basestation container and another container containing a deployable prebuilt tower with solar and and wind turbines that is mass produced can be attractive for to to local telecomms carriers in third world countries if the cost is low enough, and particularly if it was a packaged deal with ZTE/Hauwei carrier equipment.

Offline edzieba

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #13 on: 03/23/2021 10:02 am »
Cellsite-in-a-box is already a common deployment method, so doing so bundled with satellite backhaul is an easy sell (easier than trying to make GSM-from-orbit work for all your other desired applications). If you aim for microcell rather than macrocell deployments, this can be as simple as a single weather sealed box supplied with power as a turnkey deployment.

Offline CameronD

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #14 on: 03/25/2021 12:08 am »
Cellsite-in-a-box is already a common deployment method, so doing so bundled with satellite backhaul is an easy sell (easier than trying to make GSM-from-orbit work for all your other desired applications). If you aim for microcell rather than macrocell deployments, this can be as simple as a single weather sealed box supplied with power as a turnkey deployment.

Since there are countries out there (like this one) unwilling to allow Chinese government-controlled entities to provide terrestrial 5G services within their borders, perhaps this allows them to provide a service from above instead.
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline edzieba

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #15 on: 03/26/2021 12:01 pm »
Cellsite-in-a-box is already a common deployment method, so doing so bundled with satellite backhaul is an easy sell (easier than trying to make GSM-from-orbit work for all your other desired applications). If you aim for microcell rather than macrocell deployments, this can be as simple as a single weather sealed box supplied with power as a turnkey deployment.

Since there are countries out there (like this one) unwilling to allow Chinese government-controlled entities to provide terrestrial 5G services within their borders, perhaps this allows them to provide a service from above instead.
Not really: the issues have nothing to do with Chinese-owned operators: instead, the prohibition is on use of Chinese sourced hardware as part of a domestically owned and operated networks (i.e. "no buying cheap Huawei routers, you've gotta use Cisco/Nokia/etc instead").
The reasoning is the supposed presence of as-yet-unproven backdoors. No evidence of the existence of these claimed backdoors has yet been presented to any US partners, and analysis by other security agencies (e.g. GCHQ) have found no evidence of backdoors (through they did find sloppy code management). The assumption has been this is an economic protectionism move rather than security.

This would still preclude operation of 5G networks on Chinese hardware in nations following the US' line, but regardless of who is operating the service. For Africa and other nations where Chinese investment is easier to come by the US (or European) investment, it's a nonissue, and a Chinese satellite backhaul cell-site-in-a-box is just as desirable as a Starlink-backhaul cellsite-in-a-box.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #16 on: 04/26/2021 11:10 pm »
Someone asked about the ITU filings for GW as they couldn't find them themselves, but I didn't initially find them myself, just saw a post commenting on the filings by Christian Frhr. von der Ropp on LinkedIn


https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6716442817100578817/

which has screenshots of an ITU query (reposted here)

perhaps ask him directly?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvdropp/


Offline Asteroza

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #17 on: 05/27/2021 12:57 am »
More info dropping,


https://spacenews.com/china-establishes-company-to-build-satellite-broadband-megaconstellation/


State-Owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission (SASAC) pushed out a press release

http://www.sasac.gov.cn/n2588030/n2588924/c18286531/content.html

The China Satellite Network Group Co. Ltd company will be created to manage the megaconstellation for the government.


In related news, the State Administration of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense (SASTIND) pushed out guidance on sat development.

http://www.sastind.gov.cn/n157/c6812015/content.html

Notable is comments on on-orbit safety, collision avoidance, and debris mitigation. I wonder if they'll start requiring putting things like the Altius Space Machines designed DogTags on all future sats as a mitigation measure?

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: GW (Guowang/国网) Constellation (China StarNet?)
« Reply #18 on: 07/31/2023 06:07 am »
https://twitter.com/cnsawatcher/status/1685888779981066240

Quote
CPPCC National Committee member & aerospace researcher Qu Wei reveals plans for GW (国网) constellation, aiming to launch nearly 13,000 satellites, known as “China's Starlink”. It’s expected to avoid collisions and reduce launch costs by over 80%. Source: buff.ly/3QlyH4c

Google translate:

Quote
Qu Wei, member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference and researcher at the 11th Academy of Aerospace Science and Technology Group: The State Grid (GW) constellation plan is expected to launch nearly 13,000 satellites, known as China Starlink.
China's Starlink may have a lower orbit than America's. This largely avoids overlaps and collisions, ensuring a safe distance. Lower orbit satellites have the advantages of strong invulnerability, flexible deployment, large transmission capacity, and unaffected by terrain.
If China wants to build its own Starlink, the key lies in overcoming reusable rocket technology. Rocket recovery and reuse technology may significantly reduce launch costs by more than 80%. The liquid oxygen methane engine is also a breakthrough point for reusable rockets. China has made important breakthroughs in related fields. China has the advantage of concentrating its efforts on major tasks, and the Chinese version of the low-orbit starlink is advancing in an orderly manner.
« Last Edit: 07/31/2023 06:08 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

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