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#40
by
Star One
on 14 Sep, 2020 19:07
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#41
by
RonM
on 14 Sep, 2020 19:13
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I'm surprised there's not more interest in this. Skepticism is warranted, but this is probably the strongest signal for extraterrestrial life we've ever had. Granted, the bar there was quite low, but still...
I think people have been burnt once to often in the past. Looking at you Martian meteorite.
Not only that, but there's two possibilities; life or unknown abiotic chemistry. Since we know little about the atmosphere of Venus, unknown abiotic chemistry is the best bet.
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#42
by
Star One
on 14 Sep, 2020 19:16
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I'm surprised there's not more interest in this. Skepticism is warranted, but this is probably the strongest signal for extraterrestrial life we've ever had. Granted, the bar there was quite low, but still...
I think people have been burnt once to often in the past. Looking at you Martian meteorite.
Not only that, but there's two possibilities; life or unknown abiotic chemistry. Since we know little about the atmosphere of Venus, unknown abiotic chemistry is the best bet.
I think you’re over-stating a little our ignorance of the Venusian atmosphere.
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#43
by
Orbiter
on 14 Sep, 2020 19:17
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Reading the research paper, a thought has come to mind:
PH3 in our atmosphere only exists on the ppt range (parts per trillion), and that's with our incredibly vast biosphere. So how is it that Venus, a planet vastly more inhospitable for life, has PH3 in the ppb range (parts per billion)? If there's life, it must be a huge ecosystem to produce this.
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#44
by
TrevorMonty
on 14 Sep, 2020 19:21
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This research should give RL Venus mission something to target. Last I heard mission was still deciding on payload.
Would be irionic that cheapest interplanetary mission ever is first to detect live on Venus.
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#45
by
Owlon
on 14 Sep, 2020 19:41
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Reading the research paper, a thought has come to mind:
PH3 in our atmosphere only exists on the ppt range (parts per trillion), and that's with our incredibly vast biosphere. So how is it that Venus, a planet vastly more inhospitable for life, has PH3 in the ppb range (parts per billion)? If there's life, it must be a huge ecosystem to produce this.
Not necessarily. If the biochemistry that produces PH3 on Venus is fundamental to whatever life there might be there, it might be more apt to compare the concentration of PH3 on Venus to, say, Oxygen or CO2 on Earth. Pulling numbers out of thin air, maybe earth has only one in 100,000,000 organisms producing PH3 while on Venus it is close to 100%.
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#46
by
ncb1397
on 14 Sep, 2020 19:52
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Reading the research paper, a thought has come to mind:
PH3 in our atmosphere only exists on the ppt range (parts per trillion), and that's with our incredibly vast biosphere. So how is it that Venus, a planet vastly more inhospitable for life, has PH3 in the ppb range (parts per billion)? If there's life, it must be a huge ecosystem to produce this.
You can get ppb concentrations in certain scenarios.
Measurements of phosphine concentrations in the Earth's atmosphere. Study number shown in x-axis (references below) and y-axis showing the span of locally measured concentration of gaseous PH3 in units of ng/m 3 , with maximum values of 600.2 and 1259 ng/m 3 (corresponding to concentrations ranging between ppq to ppb). Green bars: marshlands and paddy fields. Black bars -industrial environments. Red bar -Namibia (rural environment). White bars -arctic and Antarctic environments. Yellow bars -Upper troposphere. Blue bars -oceanic samples (coastal and open ocean. References for studies shown: 1) (Han et al. 2011a) 2) (Han et al. 2000) 3) (Niu et al. 2013) 4) (Glindemann et al. 1996a) 5) (Zhang et al. 2010) 6) (Glindemann et al. 1996a) 7) (Zhu et al. 2007a; Zhu et al. 2007b) 
(Zhang et al. 2010) 9,10) (Glindemann et al. 2003) 11) (Li et al. 2009) 12) (Zhu et al. 2007a; Zhu et al. 2007b) 13) (Gassmann et al. 1996) 14) (Glindemann et al. 2003) 15) (Geng et al. 2005; Han et al. 2011b) 16) (Hong et al. 2010a). We do not include measurements of "Matrix-Bound Phosphine" (material that releases PH3 when
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Measurements-of-phosphine-concentrations-in-the-Earths-atmosphere-Study-number-shown-in_fig1_336510631It looks like the highest concentrations were found in industrial environments, closely followed by arctic environments. There doesn't seem to be much correlation between biological mass density and phosphine concentration (in fact, the opposite).
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#47
by
Star One
on 14 Sep, 2020 19:59
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Scott Manley:
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#48
by
sghill
on 14 Sep, 2020 20:10
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I'm surprised there's not more interest in this. Skepticism is warranted, but this is probably the strongest signal for extraterrestrial life we've ever had. Granted, the bar there was quite low, but still...
It's front page on CNN and The Atlantic right now, and it's the headline on Huffington Post.
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#49
by
Star One
on 14 Sep, 2020 20:45
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Cross-posting this.
https://twitter.com/JimBridenstine/status/1305598182571810822Life on Venus? The discovery of phosphine, a byproduct of anaerobic biology, is the most significant development yet in building the case for life off Earth. About 10 years ago NASA discovered microbial life at 120,000ft in Earth’s upper atmosphere. It’s time to prioritize Venus.
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#50
by
CuddlyRocket
on 14 Sep, 2020 20:47
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Reading the research paper, a thought has come to mind:
PH3 in our atmosphere only exists on the ppt range (parts per trillion), and that's with our incredibly vast biosphere. So how is it that Venus, a planet vastly more inhospitable for life, has PH3 in the ppb range (parts per billion)? If there's life, it must be a huge ecosystem to produce this.
Only anaerobic bacteria produce PH3, which are a small fraction of the Earth's biosphere. Who knows what fraction they might be of any potential Venusian biosphere?
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#51
by
tbellman
on 14 Sep, 2020 21:18
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#52
by
daedalus1
on 14 Sep, 2020 21:37
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Just because a lot of energy is needed to make these compounds. Doesn't mean life made them. You need a lot more data than that to get me to start believing it.
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#53
by
yg1968
on 14 Sep, 2020 21:39
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#54
by
Phil Stooke
on 14 Sep, 2020 21:47
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Quotes from the paper:
"PH3 could originate from unknown photochemistry or geochemistry, or, by analogy with biological production of PH3 on Earth, from the presence of life.
Even if confirmed, we emphasize that the detection of PH3 is not robust evidence for life, only for anomalous and unexplained chemistry."
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#55
by
Khadgars
on 14 Sep, 2020 22:36
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Fascinating discovery! Yes its true there could be an unknown source for the detection that doesn't involve life, but it certainly makes a compelling argument that it could be!
What I love about this discovery is that is started with how would you look for life signatures on distant planets. They then applied this methodology to Venus and got very unexpected results! Science in action, love it!
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#56
by
Alpha_Centauri
on 14 Sep, 2020 22:39
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Tbf I think the possibility of it indicating life was a bit oversold, I mean they spent half the conference talking about life when they said they weren't claiming it was proof of life. Of course Venus researchers obviously have an interest in making audacious claims to try (and apparently succeed in) getting attention.
That said, if we ever do find life elsewhere I strongly suspect it won't be from a clearcut "eureka" moment, as Chris Lintott alluded to on SaN, but something initially contentious such as this discovery. On balance it probably isn't life, there's just so many unknowns, but finding the real thing will likely look just the same so who knows.
Regardless, there is a big effort to understand potential biosignatures in preparation for studying the atmospheres of exoplanets. At some point we will have come across this issue of detecting a biosignature but not being quite sure what it means, in fact we did with methane on Mars. Whatever we learn about phosphine will be important going forward in the search for life elsewhere.
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#57
by
baldusi
on 14 Sep, 2020 22:49
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I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up in a discussion of "what is life".
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#58
by
whitelancer64
on 14 Sep, 2020 23:05
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Scientist: "We may have found traces of a weird chemical on Venus, but we need to do lots of follow-up observations to make sure we really saw what we think we saw. This chemical can formed by life here on Earth, but we know it also forms without life on Jupiter and Saturn."
Media: "ERMAGERD THERE'S EVIDENCE OF LIFE ON VENUS"
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#59
by
Orbiter
on 14 Sep, 2020 23:10
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Scientist: "We may have found traces of a weird chemical on Venus, but we need to do lots of follow-up observations to make sure we really saw what we think we saw. This chemical can formed by life here on Earth, but we know it also forms without life on Jupiter and Saturn."
Media: "ERMAGERD THERE'S EVIDENCE OF LIFE ON VENUS"
Not to defend the media here, but that's not really what the scientists were saying either. They really said it's either some unknown process that will require more research or follow-up, or it's life.
(Zhang et al. 2010) 9,10) (Glindemann et al. 2003) 11) (Li et al. 2009) 12) (Zhu et al. 2007a; Zhu et al. 2007b) 13) (Gassmann et al. 1996) 14) (Glindemann et al. 2003) 15) (Geng et al. 2005; Han et al. 2011b) 16) (Hong et al. 2010a). We do not include measurements of "Matrix-Bound Phosphine" (material that releases PH3 when