SpaceX Falcon 9 / Dragon 2 : SpX-DM2 - EOM/Return: August, 2020 : DISCUSSION

[darkenfast]

I just watched Jim Bridenstine's comments at the end of the presser and at Ellington field.  I was impressed and I hope politicians will listen to his call.  In the totally unrelated performing-arts world, I have seen collaborators sometimes exhibit what I like to call the "2+2=6" effect.  I'm sure you have seen similar things in other fields.  It took a while to get there and both sides had to learn from each other, but I think (at this moment), SpaceX and NASA are having a 2+2=6 experience.  There will will be other companies that will rise to that, eventually.  A capsule flight to the ISS might seem to be "no big deal" to some, but I think it does represent a sea-change, and as Administrator Bridenstine said: "We need to keep up the momentum!".

[sdsds]

Two thumbs up for the "2+2=6" analogy!

Regarding Bridenstine's comments, he himself makes clear he doesn't set the nation's human spaceflight policy.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=44.0

[Bogeyman]

That's because there isn't a solution besides, "deploy the whole Coast Guard and board every boat that shows up." The CG has no authority to cordon off areas outside the 12 nm limit. All they can do is board a US-flagged vessel and inspect it.

There IS a solution, but they probably don't want to implement it, and it's the same one Apollo used (albeit for different reasons):

Splashdown so far away from shore that only serious vessels will be present.

If the splashdown site was 100 miles offshore instead of 20, the sightseers would not be present (well, mostly anyway).

Besides, the new has worn off now.  No more fanfare, no more "Launch America", no more celebrity to it.  Now, it will become mundane, repeatable, the new normal.  It's not good or bad, it just is what it is.  Bob and Doug re-blazed the trail.  No one will remember the names of Crew 1 (outside of this cadre).

I predict that future splashdowns will be farther offshore, with more Coast Guard presence, and way fewer unexpected visitors.

Don't all these boats have to have number plates or some official signature? All CG has to do is take pictures of all the boats and fine them a couple of thousand dollars and take the boat license for a year or so. Probably will never happen again once that word is out...

[AC in NC]

Don't all these boats have to have number plates or some official signature? All CG has to do is take pictures of all the boats and fine them a couple of thousand dollars and take the boat license for a year or so. Probably will never happen again once that word is out...

The CG explained the absence of authority for that.

[Bogeyman]

The CG explained the absence of authority for that.

This is preposterous. The Apollo missions were NASA missions and those capsules were all recovered by aircraft carriers or other navy vessels. Of course, also because those splashdowns were probably farther out in the sea. But still...
So GO Navigator is all by itself.
Just imagine one of these reckless boaters punches a hole in one of Dragon's window....

[clongton]

So long as the civilian spectators remain outside the exclusion zone from spacecraft recovery operations, I see nothing wrong with such spectators being in the area. This video is higher quality than any others that I have seen so far. But they do need to stay outside a clearly demarcated exclusion zone, one that is enforced by security operations.

[Ben the Space Brit]

"...And we've gotta get Starship flying" -- Bridenstine

:O

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I also think that this deserves more discussion. Was that Administrator Bridenstine's personal views here or was this a new NASA interest in the program being publicly articulated for the first time? Starship becoming Shuttle Mk2? Certainly, in its LEO mode, it could do most, if not all and more, of the things that the Shuttle could and likely far cheaper and faster!

[1]

IMO, both.

Mentioning "the tweet" from last year, and explicitly saying SpaceX has indeed delivered, I think Bridenstine is personally and publicly burying the hatchet. But I also believe that the success of the DM-2 has brought SpaceX to greater public attention than ever before.

Starship isn't designed for LEO; it's designed to go to Mars. I think more and more folks are starting to look at this company and think, 'well hell, they might actually pull this off'. And I think a lot of entities, NASA first and foremost, will want to be on board for that.

Exciting times.

[sdsds]

It was certainly a startling moment in Bridenstine's speech. The moment after it became clear: he was referencing vehicles he expects to fly soon and with which people present at the time are involved. (I'm assuming the Starliner test flight astronauts just happened to be in Houston....)

[codav]

Starship isn't designed for LEO; it's designed to go to Mars.

And that makes it even more capable for LEO operations. Moon landings are tough for Starship though due to its high dry mass, as the design relies highly on atmospheric drag to slow it down for landings and also skip the capture maneuver, both which are required for lunar landings. So for Artemis, having the proposed Moon<->Gateway-only Starship is a really good compromise, but it requires not only refueling at/near the gateway, but also swapping cargo with an Earth<->Gateway Starship. Still, if that works out as planned, it'd be a really cost effective way to deliver large amounts of cargo to the Moon as the system is fully reusable.

[kevinof]

So the CG doesn't have the authority to create an exclusion zone in international waters. However every U.S. boat has to comply with safe navigation rules and you could say that getting so close to and potentially interfering with the recovery was a breach of these regs.

All boats in the U.S. have an ID and can be given a ticket or even prosecuted but that's a lot of work. I think they need more resources out there - they could come down heavy on a few and so send a message to others, they could move it further offshore or pick a rainy day for landing etc.

This is a new problem for them - in the Apollo days it landed in the middle of the Pacific so nobody around. Being so close to so many boaters in summer is a new problem for them.

The CG explained the absence of authority for that.

This is preposterous. The Apollo missions were NASA missions and those capsules were all recovered by aircraft carriers or other navy vessels. Of course, also because those splashdowns were probably farther out in the sea. But still...
So GO Navigator is all by itself.
Just imagine one of these reckless boaters punches a hole in one of Dragon's window....

[CorvusCorax]

This would be completely off-topic if not for the Bridenstine comment, but...

One of the big issues of Starship - for manned spaceflight - is its reliance on propulsive landing with no plan B (no parachutes, no emergency glider landing).
But for the Moon this is the only option. Any lander lands propulsive.

If Starship manages to pass NASA approval to fly Astronauts to the moon - and does so - the "certification gap" - to be OK for landing and possibly even launch of Astronauts from earth becomes A LOT smaller.

And that would definitely have its advantages - we wouldn't have these boat-swarm issues if Dragon still were to land on land under its own power - on a dedicated landing pad

[Vettedrmr]

High quality video of the recovery operations and showing how close some of those boats got

This is crazy.  It'll be interesting to see how NASA/SpaceX try to safeguard Dragon in the future.  While some may just say "well, the new is off, so it won't be a problem in the future", what do you do about the lunatic making some "statement" that intends to ram the capsule?

One way would be for NASA may relax the "1 hour to hospital" rule.  I expect that number is arbitrary, but there's also a limit to how far out they can go and stay within helicopter range of the coastline.

But, other than that, what a great recovery!!

Way to go, team!

Have a good one,
Mike

[ace5]

Do we have any information about the splashdown mass of the capsule?

[jerwah]

This is crazy.  It'll be interesting to see how NASA/SpaceX try to safeguard Dragon in the future.

Speculation:
1. Publish a much larger target area and/or always list two candidate zones and only disclose the actual landing ellipse to the recovery teams. This should split any yahoo's into smaller groups, farther away, etc.

2. Add a couple of additional fast boats tasked with specifically keeping a perimiter/audio keep out warnings "danger toxic fumes etc" possibly with an LRAD for the persistent.

3. Inner boat with an armed security detail for the unthinkable. Maybe NASA can get the Navy to support this role?


I really hate that we have to think this way at all...

[John Alan]

The Coast Guard statement says...
We had one of these...
http://www.bollingershipyards.com/portfolio/uscg-87-marine-protector-class-patrol-boats-cpb
AND one of these...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_Boat_%E2%80%93_Medium
Assigned to this action today...

Really... well WHERE the heck are they in the 'home video' (and other sources I reviewed) up above???... 

IMHO... CG assets assigned SHOULD have had orders to converge on capsule location at splashdown and form a presence and say a 300-yard radius circling fleet presence around the action...
Not Go Home as it seems happened... 

On Edit...
The two assets in question circling around the situation with some crew on deck holding and appearing to use cameras with telephoto lenses would likely have been enough to keep the gawkers and stupids outside the circle... IMHO
That and the twin 50's on the 87-foot boat to remind folks they are the police force in charge here...

On further edit...
Need an excuse why... place a CG officer on board the GO boat and say they are inspecting a downed aircraft that it appears attempted to enter US airspace without proper paperwork and inspection... 

[Thorny]

Interesting point and valid for Dragon 1. But how come the DM-1 Dragon didn't have that treatment? Still has the scorch marks in this official SpaceX photo prior to its static fire attempt.

Because it wasn't going to re-enter again, just fly the In Flight Abort test, perhaps?

[DistantTemple]

surely the safety zones off of the cape are policed, and "authorities" must have the power to require boats to leave / not enter the safety zones!
Also In the UK there are exclusion zones around oil rigs etc, I know because I eventually got a tow out of one by a security patrol! And Oil rigs are commercial, not military!
A 1 mile, or even 1/4 mile exclusion zone around the Dragon and the SX recovery ship is needed, as well as the landing elipse....  If its OK for oil assets, why not spacecraft.
This will become more and more relevant! What about the interest when space film stars splash down, on a calm day! A fast tour or fishing boat etc could do excursions! There has to be a safety zone!

[Vettedrmr]

surely the safety zones off of the cape are policed, and "authorities" must have the power to require boats to leave / not enter the safety zones!

I think the launch safety zones are all within the 12 nm boundary.

[kevinof]

Safety zones at offshore platforms are created under a U.N. regulation - they are specific to these platforms and extend for 500m from a fixed point. 

There is no legislation that I know of for declaring a safety zone in international waters except in the case of an "act of war".  Now some would say flying a Trump flag on a vessel in any waters is an act of war but who am I to judge! 

The CG are in a difficult position here and I don't see an easy solution.

surely the safety zones off of the cape are policed, and "authorities" must have the power to require boats to leave / not enter the safety zones!
Also In the UK there are exclusion zones around oil rigs etc, I know because I eventually got a tow out of one by a security patrol! And Oil rigs are commercial, not military!
A 1 mile, or even 1/4 mile exclusion zone around the Dragon and the SX recovery ship is needed, as well as the landing elipse....  If its OK for oil assets, why not spacecraft.
This will become more and more relevant! What about the interest when space film stars splash down, on a calm day! A fast tour or fishing boat etc could do excursions! There has to be a safety zone!