SpaceX Dragon XL

[ChrML]

Starship is considered as a manned lunar lander. But might be considered not safe enough to fly DragonXL?

Different systems, different mission profile. For example, Super Heavy is not a part of the lunar lander.

Not saying that Starship will be less safe than FH + Dragon XL. What I'm saying is that there's more to it than simply switching the launch vehicle. NASA needs to do a lot of work of certifying a new vehicle, learning new procedures, new demo missions etc... That's why I don't think it will happen under this contract.

[clongton]

If Dragon is critical to upcoming lunar mission then can't see NASA approving use of less reliable LV.

With respect Trevor, that's not the point. As pointed out in yg1968's posts immediately following yours, the use of a F9H is not contractually required. What IS required is that the launch vehicle must be a Commercial Launch Vehicle (CLV) and must have at least 1 successful launch in an identical configuration prior to 1st use for the DXL mission to Gateway.

[the_other_Doug]

If Dragon is critical to upcoming lunar mission then can't see NASA approving use of less reliable LV.

With respect Trevor, that's not the point. As pointed out in yg1968's posts immediately following yours, the use of a F9H is not contractually required. What IS required is that the launch vehicle must be a Commercial Launch Vehicle (CLV) and must have at least 1 successful launch in an identical configuration prior to 1st use for the DXL mission to Gateway.

This reminds me of the (possibly apocryphal) discussion between von Braun and his senior staff, describing Mueller's All-Up mandate as it impacted the Saturn V:

Staff:  "And how many flights before we put a man on it?"

von Braun:  "One successful."

Staff:  "He has to be out of his mind!"

[sdsds]

Not certain this is an okay place for this graphic. Seems like a good summary though. From the Space Studies Board and Aeronautics and Space Engineering Board Joint Spring Meeting 2020 presentation by Ken Bowersox.

GATEWAY LOGISTICS SERVICES (GLS)
SpaceX selected as the first U.S.
commercial provider under the Gateway
Logistics Services contract to deliver cargo,
experiments and other supplies to the
agency’s Gateway in lunar orbit
Multiple supply missions planned in which
the cargo spacecraft will stay at the
Gateway for six to 12 months at a time
• 5 MT delivered cargo capability
• Power to internal and external
payloads
• Trash removal
• Automated RPOD
(docking/undocking)

When Bowersox mentions external payloads does he mean unpressurized payloads (but still inside something like a trunk)?

[NaN]

When Bowersox mentions external payloads does he mean unpressurized payloads (but still inside something like a trunk)?

Yes to unpressurized payloads, though I suspect that they are not inside a trunk but are exposed on the vehicle (on the front during launch), protected during ascent by the PLF. In fact, NASA has stated that they intend to use Dragon XL as a sort of DragonLab for both pressurized and unpressurized payloads, even while enroute to the Gateway.


https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/03/nasa-officials-outline-plans-for-building-a-lunar-gateway-in-the-mid-2020s/

Hartman: We're going to put payloads on the inside, and we've got quite a bit of power allocated from the Dragon XL for that. We've got upmass allocated for payloads inside and then we can also fly payloads on the outside with power and tied into their communication systems so we can get some research back down, real time on the way to the Moon, and while attached at the Moon. And then quite honestly, we don't need the logistics mission up there for six months or a year just to support a lunar mission. But we wanted to take advantage of the extra volume, the extra research accommodations, where we could keep it attached, and we could run science. Dragon also has got the automated rendezvous and docking system that they will be using on their CRS-2 vehicles, very similar to their Crew Dragon. And so, the docking system, you can come and go. We were planning to do that remotely without crew in there. And so, we think we're set up for a really good platform to conduct research for the long haul.

[whitelancer64]

Not certain this is an okay place for this graphic. Seems like a good summary though. From the Space Studies Board and Aeronautics and Space Engineering Board Joint Spring Meeting 2020 presentation by Ken Bowersox.

GATEWAY LOGISTICS SERVICES (GLS)
SpaceX selected as the first U.S.
commercial provider under the Gateway
Logistics Services contract to deliver cargo,
experiments and other supplies to the
agency’s Gateway in lunar orbit
Multiple supply missions planned in which
the cargo spacecraft will stay at the
Gateway for six to 12 months at a time
• 5 MT delivered cargo capability
• Power to internal and external
payloads
• Trash removal
• Automated RPOD
(docking/undocking)

When Bowersox mentions external payloads does he mean unpressurized payloads (but still inside something like a trunk)?

On the side of the Dragon XL with the solar panels there are mount points for external cargo / payloads like there are in the trunk, but with no surrounding wall.

[sdsds]

Has there been any public mention of the Dragon XL systems requirements review that is the first milestone on the project timeline after the award of the contract?

[the_other_Doug]

Granted that Dragon XL is specifically being contracted for Artemis support, if it does get built, does anyone think it will also end up providing logistics support for ISS?

[klod]

It was proposed for testing make 1 resupply mission to ISS. But further exploitation only for Gateway. Dragon 2 has heatshield and is reusable, but Dragon XL for single use.

[ChrisWilson68]

Granted that Dragon XL is specifically being contracted for Artemis support, if it does get built, does anyone think it will also end up providing logistics support for ISS?

I'm not sure any of the Dragon line have that much of a future.  If Starship succeeds, I think SpaceX wants to use it to replace all of the Falcon and Dragon families because it's cheaper for them.  I think they'll push NASA to let them do that.  NASA doesn't have to agree, but if NASA is willing to replace cargo Dragon with Dragon XL for logistics, I think they'd be willing to replace it with Starship instead.

[klod]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1244694967303405575?s=20

Hopefully, Starship will have enough flight history to substitute for Dragon for NASA missions too

[sdsds]

There was talk of using a Dragon XL as a rendezvous practice target for a certain NASA mission that shall not be named.

Another reasonable use (re-use, even) might be to have a Dragon XL deliver cargo to ISS and then after it leaves station have it rendezvous and dock with a Starship.

[klod]

Rendezvous practice with Orion in 2022. That is for Artemis 3 mission.

[yg1968]

SpaceX has been awarded $1 million for "Gateway Logistics Services risk mitigation due to delayed authority to proceed."

NASA is still yet to find adequate funding for Dragon XL development.

Part 1: https://beta.sam.gov/awards/92342896%2BAWARD   
Part 2: https://beta.sam.gov/awards/92343311%2BAWARD

https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1306768394742501376

[woods170]

SpaceX has been awarded $1 million for "Gateway Logistics Services risk mitigation due to delayed authority to proceed."

NASA is still yet to find adequate funding for Dragon XL development.

Part 1: https://beta.sam.gov/awards/92342896%2BAWARD   
Part 2: https://beta.sam.gov/awards/92343311%2BAWARD

https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1306768394742501376

As with everything Gateway the requested funding did not materialize completely. Courtesy of NASA not being able to convince US Congress.
The fallout from that is now becoming visible for DragonXL.

[klod]

That is just fascinating, considering that SpaceX proposed the lowest price.

[woods170]

That is just fascinating, considering that SpaceX proposed the lowest price.

Has nothing to do with price. Has everything to do with NASA awarding multi-year contracts for a project for which NASA had secured neither political support nor the required funding.

Which is exactly what is going on with Artemis in general and Gateway in particular.

[yg1968]

I haven't heard anyone in Congress speakout against Gateway. It might just be that they have to wait for the FY21 Appropriations bill to be passed.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=50079.msg2133676#new

[clongton]

That is just fascinating, considering that SpaceX proposed the lowest price.

Has nothing to do with price. Has everything to do with NASA awarding multi-year contracts for a project for which NASA had secured neither political support nor the required funding.

Which is exactly what is going on with Artemis in general and Gateway in particular.

Where's the "Sad" button?

[yg1968]

That is just fascinating, considering that SpaceX proposed the lowest price.

Has nothing to do with price. Has everything to do with NASA awarding multi-year contracts for a project for which NASA had secured neither political support nor the required funding.

Which is exactly what is going on with Artemis in general and Gateway in particular.

Where's the "Sad" button?

That's just woods170's opinion. Funding new programs takes time since Appropriations is a yearly process. The fact that funding for FY21 will be through a CR for the next few months doesn't help.