SpaceX Dragon XL

[sevaithan]

Yup, and going one step further, SpaceX could recover Dragon XL and bring it back to Earth in Starship for reprovisioning.

Doing Dragon XL is pretty low risk for SpaceX. They're not going to lose money on the contract, and they can improve it over time by possibly eventually launching it (and recovering it) via Starship fully reusably.

It's questionable that Gateway would need more than a Dragon XL's worth of cargo at a time anyway.

Go one crazy step further, refuel and restock on orbit with SS and send it back out on TLI. 

Save the Delta V.

You're not really buying anything significant there.

You absolutely are. Starship has pretty high dry mass so you want to keep it as close to Earth as possible. It also has very high payload to LEO. So a good solution is to launch a Starship with enough supplies for say 5 Gateway resupplies and fuel to refuel Dragon XL, then have Dragon XL shuttle between Gateway and the Starship 5 times. Using a smaller vehicle with a higher payload fraction saves a lot of prop compared to using starship, especially if it can aerobrake on the way back (TPS requirements aren't very high as it can use multiple passes), and as an added bonus you don't have any of the structural worries docking Starship brings. This would almost certainly get more mass to gateway per SS launch than just sending a Starship there.

[kkattula]

Yup, and going one step further, SpaceX could recover Dragon XL and bring it back to Earth in Starship for reprovisioning.

Doing Dragon XL is pretty low risk for SpaceX. They're not going to lose money on the contract, and they can improve it over time by possibly eventually launching it (and recovering it) via Starship fully reusably.

It's questionable that Gateway would need more than a Dragon XL's worth of cargo at a time anyway.

Go one crazy step further, refuel and restock on orbit with SS and send it back out on TLI. 

Save the Delta V.

Even crazier, Starship takes Dragon XL to Gateway vicinity, releases it to dock and unload. Dragon XL then undocks and returns to SS, where the SS crew restock it and send back to Gateway.

Call this Dragon XL as a shuttle-craft.

[ThePonjaX]

Ok, seems for the nice article on the site:

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2020/05/heo-tdrs-replacement-improved-artemis-testing/

The dragon XL has a new mission:

If a target docking spacecraft is desired, NASA has considered the use of SpaceX’s Dragon XL spacecraft, which NASA will utilize to deliver cargo to the Lunar Gateway station in lunar orbit.

Until now I understand with the Gateway assembled the contract was for 2 dragons XL, now we have another one and probably  earlier?

[guckyfan]

I wonder what the mission profile would be exactly. It was planned as a free return mission for the first crew flight. Will this change to lunar orbital mission or will that rendezvous be on the free return trajectory.

I imagine Dragon XL sent into a very high, nearly TLI trajectory. When Orion is ready to launch Dragon XL injects into a lunar return trajectory and SLS/Orion launches into the same trajectory. Dragon XL can expend almost all of its available delta-v for that insertion. Anything wrong with this?

[Alexphysics]

They could rendezvous in High Earth Orbit after separation of the Orion spacecraft from the ICPS upper stage. Once rendezvous and docking is complete they then fire the main engine (how are we gonna call it? OME?) on the service module to TLI for a free return trajectory around the Moon.

[ThomasGadd]

For the first test mission Dragon XL could enter a lunar elliptical orbit, run onboard science experiments maybe drop things off in orbit then return to LEO and dock with ISS or D2 (to prove it can dock Gateway). 

[Robotbeat]

For the first test mission Dragon XL could enter a lunar elliptical orbit, run onboard science experiments maybe drop things off in orbit then return to LEO and dock with ISS or D2 (to prove it can dock Gateway).

How are you planning on returning to LEO?

(I'm not saying it's impossible, but...)

[ThomasGadd]

For the first test mission Dragon XL could enter a lunar elliptical orbit, run onboard science experiments maybe drop things off in orbit then return to LEO and dock with ISS or D2 (to prove it can dock Gateway).

How are you planning on returning to LEO?

(I'm not saying it's impossible, but...)

I thought there was discussion about this... the draco's could get them back the payload would be light mostly fuel. 

[Robotbeat]

For the first test mission Dragon XL could enter a lunar elliptical orbit, run onboard science experiments maybe drop things off in orbit then return to LEO and dock with ISS or D2 (to prove it can dock Gateway).

How are you planning on returning to LEO?

(I'm not saying it's impossible, but...)

I thought there was discussion about this... the draco's could get them back the payload would be light mostly fuel.

If you're doing this propulsively, That's like 3.5km/s delta-v. That's enormous. I suspect even without any payload, Dragon XL can't do that.

[woods170]

For the first test mission Dragon XL could enter a lunar elliptical orbit, run onboard science experiments maybe drop things off in orbit then return to LEO and dock with ISS or D2 (to prove it can dock Gateway).

How are you planning on returning to LEO?

(I'm not saying it's impossible, but...)

I thought there was discussion about this... the draco's could get them back the payload would be light mostly fuel.

If you're doing this propulsively, That's like 3.5km/s delta-v. That's enormous. I suspect even without any payload, Dragon XL can't do that.

That's correct. Dragon XL has nowhere near that amount of delta-v.

[Joffan]

I wonder what the mission profile would be exactly. It was planned as a free return mission for the first crew flight. Will this change to lunar orbital mission or will that rendezvous be on the free return trajectory.

I imagine Dragon XL sent into a very high, nearly TLI trajectory. When Orion is ready to launch Dragon XL injects into a lunar return trajectory and SLS/Orion launches into the same trajectory. Dragon XL can expend almost all of its available delta-v for that insertion. Anything wrong with this?

Potentially, and with fewer complications, the rendezvous could be undertaken in the high (elliptical) Earth orbit phase. It depends what the test objectives are to some extent, but I could see that checking a lot of boxes.

[yg1968]

Ok, seems for the nice article on the site:

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2020/05/heo-tdrs-replacement-improved-artemis-testing/

The dragon XL has a new mission:

If a target docking spacecraft is desired, NASA has considered the use of SpaceX’s Dragon XL spacecraft, which NASA will utilize to deliver cargo to the Lunar Gateway station in lunar orbit.

Until now I understand with the Gateway assembled the contract was for 2 dragons XL, now we have another one and probably  earlier?

At the recent NAC meeting, that possibility was not seen as the favourite. The favorite was a Rendezvous and Proximity Operations to a satellite launched with Orion.

[ThePonjaX]

Ok, seems for the nice article on the site:

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2020/05/heo-tdrs-replacement-improved-artemis-testing/

The dragon XL has a new mission:

If a target docking spacecraft is desired, NASA has considered the use of SpaceX’s Dragon XL spacecraft, which NASA will utilize to deliver cargo to the Lunar Gateway station in lunar orbit.

Until now I understand with the Gateway assembled the contract was for 2 dragons XL, now we have another one and probably  earlier?

At the recent NAC meeting, that possibility was not seen as the favourite. The favorite was a Rendezvous and Proximity Operations to a satellite launched with Orion.

So it's a double launch? Orion + a satellite. And that satellite is going to be build by who? These is a new element on the plans.

[clongton]

At the recent NAC meeting, that possibility was not seen as the favorite. The favorite was a Rendezvous and Proximity Operations to a satellite launched with Orion.

NIH syndrome?

[yg1968]

Ok, seems for the nice article on the site:

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2020/05/heo-tdrs-replacement-improved-artemis-testing/

The dragon XL has a new mission:

If a target docking spacecraft is desired, NASA has considered the use of SpaceX’s Dragon XL spacecraft, which NASA will utilize to deliver cargo to the Lunar Gateway station in lunar orbit.

Until now I understand with the Gateway assembled the contract was for 2 dragons XL, now we have another one and probably  earlier?

At the recent NAC meeting, that possibility was not seen as the favourite. The favorite was a Rendezvous and Proximity Operations to a satellite launched with Orion.

So it's a double launch? Orion + a satellite. And that satellite is going to be build by who? These is a new element on the plans.

Same launch. See below.

While Loverro said NASA is planning a rendezvous test on Artemis 2, Smith said details have not been finalized.

“The bottom line is we will probably will go and do a rendezvous and prox ops (proximity operations) activity on Artemis 2,” Smith said. “We haven’t finalized that yet, but we’ve now narrowed it down to a couple of options we think are doable.” [...]

Smith said NASA is evaluating whether to use the SLS upper stage or a satellite carried on the same rocket with with the Orion spacecraft. He added that there are “schedule reasons” why NASA may not want to modify the SLS upper stage to fill the role of the docking target, but the agency has made no final decisions on the matter.

Adding the rendezvous demonstration is “one change that we’re probably going to make,” Smith said. “At least I’m going to recommend.”

https://spaceflightnow.com/2020/05/18/nasa-will-likely-add-a-rendezvous-test-to-the-first-piloted-orion-space-mission/

[wannamoonbase]

The front of crew Dragon sure looks a lot like the one Dragon XL picture we have. 

The XL doesn’t look like too much of a tough development cycle after DM2

[yg1968]

See below:

twitter.com/wehavemeco/status/1275093794938118146

Episode T+161: Mark Wiese, Manager of NASA’s Gateway Deep Space Logistics
https://mainenginecutoff.com/podcast/161

https://twitter.com/wehavemeco/status/1275094226989129729

Really excited about this one! A long conversation with @MW_go4launch about Gateway Logistics, @SpaceX’s Dragon XL, and more.

He also allows me to get really nerdy and thoroughly responds to some of my complaints and questions from past episodes!

[yg1968]

One of the interesting thing that was mentionned at 13-14 minutes of the podcast is that NASA intends to (soon) do away with the 14mt maximum requirement that was in the final RFP. Mark Wiese (Manager of NASA’s Gateway Deep Space Logistics) said that this requirement was there because they wanted to make sure that the PPE had enough power to control the stack. But he said that the fact that the Gateway logistic module only has to to stay one year at Gateway (as opposed to the 3 years which was the initial requirement in the draft RFP) and some additionnal studies by NASA related to power usage makes this requirement no longer necessary.

The maximum of 14mt requirement is what prevented SpaceX from bidding Starship for Gateway logistic services.

[ChrisWilson68]

One of the interesting thing that was mentionned at 13-14 minutes of the podcast is that NASA intends to (soon) do away with the 14mt maximum requirement that was in the final RFP. Mark Wiese (Manager of NASA’s Gateway Deep Space Logistics) said that this requirement was there because they wanted to make sure that the PPE had enough power to control the stack. But he said that the fact that the Gateway logistic module only has to to stay one year at Gateway (as opposed to the 3 years which was the initial requirement in the draft RFP) and some additionnal studies by NASA related to power usage makes this requirement no longer necessary.

The maximum of 14mt requirement is what prevented SpaceX from bidding Starship for Gateway logistic services.

Does that mean SpaceX might go to NASA after the 14mt requirement is lifted and ask for a modification to their contract to sub in Starship?  Any chance NASA would be receptive to that?

[baldusi]

One of the interesting thing that was mentionned at 13-14 minutes of the podcast is that NASA intends to (soon) do away with the 14mt maximum requirement that was in the final RFP. Mark Wiese (Manager of NASA’s Gateway Deep Space Logistics) said that this requirement was there because they wanted to make sure that the PPE had enough power to control the stack. But he said that the fact that the Gateway logistic module only has to to stay one year at Gateway (as opposed to the 3 years which was the initial requirement in the draft RFP) and some additionnal studies by NASA related to power usage makes this requirement no longer necessary.

The maximum of 14mt requirement is what prevented SpaceX from bidding Starship for Gateway logistic services.

Does that mean SpaceX might go to NASA after the 14mt requirement is lifted and ask for a modification to their contract to sub in Starship?  Any chance NASA would be receptive to that?

I would guess, that they are actually trying to get a plan to replace Dragon XL with Starship for a later date. I don't see them getting a Starship there in the timeframe that Dragon XL can. But they will have a plan about which milestones they would need to get for it to actually be considered.
Also, this might be the point where they re-open the bidding process. You can not switch from Dragon XL to Starship and not get multiple complaints from the other offerors. But, if they wait until the new LV are operational, and Starship is somewhat proven, it will be a level playing field for all.