SpaceX Dragon XL

[abaddon]

We've kind of danced around the idea of Dragon XL visiting ISS in this thread, but to me this would seem to be a natural opportunity for both proving out the vehicle (a qualification mission) and taking advantage of a large-volume delivery capability to ISS. Plus ISS has established processes for visiting vehicles, and Dragon XL would have long heritage from predecessor Dragons by that point, both of approach to ISS and of autonomous docking.

Using a FH to send things to ISS seems like an expensive waste.

Yes.  Also, it would test all the things SpaceX knows well (getting to ISS) and not test any of the things that make XL different.  It is also unclear what kind of contract modification would have to be made to allow an XL to serve as a CRS spacecraft and what kind of testing on-ramp it might need.

All in all - best to let SpaceX move on to flying Dragon2 for CRS and let Dragon XL serve Gateway.

[woods170]

We've kind of danced around the idea of Dragon XL visiting ISS in this thread, but to me this would seem to be a natural opportunity for both proving out the vehicle (a qualification mission) and taking advantage of a large-volume delivery capability to ISS. Plus ISS has established processes for visiting vehicles, and Dragon XL would have long heritage from predecessor Dragons by that point, both of approach to ISS and of autonomous docking.

Such a "test" mission is not planned. And also not covered within the bounds of the Gateway Logistics Services contract.

[Arb]

We've kind of danced around the idea of Dragon XL visiting ISS in this thread, but to me this would seem to be a natural opportunity for both proving out the vehicle (a qualification mission) and taking advantage of a large-volume delivery capability to ISS. Plus ISS has established processes for visiting vehicles, and Dragon XL would have long heritage from predecessor Dragons by that point, both of approach to ISS and of autonomous docking.

Using a FH to send things to ISS seems like an expensive waste.

Would a heavy be needed; seems like a regular Block 5 should be able to get Dragon XL to ISS.

The heavy is needed for Gateway because TLI.

But I've not run the numbers (do we even have an unladen weight for XL?).

[Joffan]

We've kind of danced around the idea of Dragon XL visiting ISS in this thread, but to me this would seem to be a natural opportunity for both proving out the vehicle (a qualification mission) and taking advantage of a large-volume delivery capability to ISS. Plus ISS has established processes for visiting vehicles, and Dragon XL would have long heritage from predecessor Dragons by that point, both of approach to ISS and of autonomous docking.

Using a FH to send things to ISS seems like an expensive waste.

Yes.  Also, it would test all the things SpaceX knows well (getting to ISS) and not test any of the things that make XL different.  It is also unclear what kind of contract modification would have to be made to allow an XL to serve as a CRS spacecraft and what kind of testing on-ramp it might need.

All in all - best to let SpaceX move on to flying Dragon2 for CRS and let Dragon XL serve Gateway.

To be clear, I was suggesting only a one-off mission to ISS, say in 2023, not a total switch-out to Dragon XL instead of Dragon 2. The primary objective would be to further Dragon XL qualification. I think it could achieve some valuable test objectives in doing this, especially in process. Secondarily it would allow an opportunity for some large-scale transport to ISS.

I think the "on-ramp" for ISS docking has become (or at least by that time, will have become) a fairly well understood path now.

As an alternative, perhaps we could speculate whether any other space-based testing might be involved in qualification of Dragon XL prior to a trip to Gateway?

[Robotbeat]

You could get a whole bunch of payload to ISS that way. Double a usual Dragon mission, I think.

Might actually make sense for that reason. Probably more expensive than a Dragon 2 (which can be reused), but you do save by avoiding having to do 2 launches.

[rockets4life97]

You could get a whole bunch of payload to ISS that way. Double a usual Dragon mission, I think.

Might actually make sense for that reason. Probably more expensive than a Dragon 2 (which can be reused), but you do save by avoiding having to do 2 launches.

If NASA pays for it, then it will happen.

[Nathan2go]

Dragon XL also might be useful for assembling the Axiom Station, which is planned to start out attached to the ISS, then become a free-flyer when ISS de-orbits.

I think their plan of record is to include a propulsion system, guidance system, and rendezvous package on every module, then launch the modules to the ISS on any commercial rocket.  First module is planned for launch in 2024, in a 5m diameter fairing.

It seems much more reasonable to off-load that propulsion stuff to the launcher (at least until time to detach from ISS).  Also, it is very tempting to switch to a larger module that takes advantage of the >=7m diameter fairing from New Glenn and Starship.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/brickmack/status/1257024433539239945

.@SpaceX's Dragon 2, sadly limited to low Earth orbit, and its cislunar cousin Dragon XL, side-by-side.
https://www.deviantart.com/brickmack/art/Dragons-of-near-and-distant-lands-840381941

[TrevorMonty]

Dragon XL also might be useful for assembling the Axiom Station, which is planned to start out attached to the ISS, then become a free-flyer when ISS de-orbits.

I think their plan of record is to include a propulsion system, guidance system, and rendezvous package on every module, then launch the modules to the ISS on any commercial rocket.  First module is planned for launch in 2024, in a 5m diameter fairing.

It seems much more reasonable to off-load that propulsion stuff to the launcher (at least until time to detach from ISS).  Also, it is very tempting to switch to a larger module that takes advantage of the >=7m diameter fairing from New Glenn and Starship.

Axiom want to keep propulsion with their modules, lots of good reasons for it.

Axiom can still use Dragon XL to supply them while attached to ISS.
While Axiom and ISS will use separate supply and crew missions, I can see urgent spares and fresh supplies being transported for both customers regardless of who is paying for supply mission.

[Rondaz]

SpaceX StarTug Concept

https://imgur.com/a/1g2NfHp#h3z6XA8

[clongton]

https://twitter.com/brickmack/status/1257024433539239945

.@SpaceX's Dragon 2, sadly limited to low Earth orbit, and its cislunar cousin Dragon XL, side-by-side.
https://www.deviantart.com/brickmack/art/Dragons-of-near-and-distant-lands-840381941

That photo got me to thinking.
SpaceX is developing TLI capability, as shown by this side-by-side.
So - I wonder:
What if the XL's TLI propulsion capability were relocated to where the Dragon Trunk is now?
What if the Dragon's Trunk were replaced with an upgraded XL's Propulsion module?
What would it take for that combination spacecraft to equal the Apollo CSM?

[Kaputnik]

The propulsion system on XL is forward mounted, so you couldn't add it to Dragon without changing the OML and almost certainly losing the ability to safely re-enter.
In addition, the TLI capability is coming from FH, not Dragon XL itself. The spacecraft will have only fairly modest delta-v to rendezvous with the gateway.

[Zed_Noir]

The propulsion system on XL is forward mounted, so you couldn't add it to Dragon without changing the OML and almost certainly losing the ability to safely re-enter.
In addition, the TLI capability is coming from FH, not Dragon XL itself. The spacecraft will have only fairly modest delta-v to rendezvous with the gateway.

@clongton is suggesting replacing the Dragon 2 trunk with a modified variant of the Dragon XL, that will only have hypergolic propellants with no cargo. So the delta-V is a lot higher. Conformal solar array will have to installed on the Dragon XL variant along with a short finned interstage on top.

The launch configuration of the regular Dragon XL is with the docking port and the ring of 4 Dracos at the bottom. @clongton's Dragon XL variant will likely replace the docking port with more Dracos.

The Dragon 2 capsule in not change in anyway.  So there is no issues with reentry.

[Kaputnik]

The propulsion system on XL is forward mounted, so you couldn't add it to Dragon without changing the OML and almost certainly losing the ability to safely re-enter.
In addition, the TLI capability is coming from FH, not Dragon XL itself. The spacecraft will have only fairly modest delta-v to rendezvous with the gateway.

@clongton is suggesting replacing the Dragon 2 trunk with a modified variant of the Dragon XL, that will only have hypergolic propellants with no cargo. So the delta-V is a lot higher. Conformal solar array will have to installed on the Dragon XL variant along with a short finned interstage on top.

The launch configuration of the regular Dragon XL is with the docking port and the ring of 4 Dracos at the bottom. @clongton's Dragon XL variant will likely replace the docking port with more Dracos.

The Dragon 2 capsule in not change in anyway.  So there is no issues with reentry.

I'm struggling a little to envisage this concept.
Why not just make a propulsion module that sits inside the trunk... easily jettisoned in case of abort... fewer mods...

[Zed_Noir]

The propulsion system on XL is forward mounted, so you couldn't add it to Dragon without changing the OML and almost certainly losing the ability to safely re-enter.
In addition, the TLI capability is coming from FH, not Dragon XL itself. The spacecraft will have only fairly modest delta-v to rendezvous with the gateway.

@clongton is suggesting replacing the Dragon 2 trunk with a modified variant of the Dragon XL, that will only have hypergolic propellants with no cargo. So the delta-V is a lot higher. Conformal solar array will have to installed on the Dragon XL variant along with a short finned interstage on top.

The launch configuration of the regular Dragon XL is with the docking port and the ring of 4 Dracos at the bottom. @clongton's Dragon XL variant will likely replace the docking port with more Dracos.

The Dragon 2 capsule in not change in anyway.  So there is no issues with reentry.

I'm struggling a little to envisage this concept.
Why not just make a propulsion module that sits inside the trunk... easily jettisoned in case of abort... fewer mods...

Agree. But since SpaceX is going to build the Dragon XL anyway. There is no good reason to developed yet another different propulsion system. Tweeting the Dragon XL that NASA is paying to develop is cheaper.

In case of abort with a crewed Dragon capsule. The Dragon XL variant remain attracted to the upper stage. Only the finned interstage separates with the Dragon capsule.

[dror]

Is Dragon XL still a thing now?

Can SpaceX seriously count on having starship tankers, depot, freighter and a starshipish lunar lander by 2024, and yet still consider to develop a dragon for a later contract?

ISTM they are bluffing on one of them, and I hope it's XL.

[Coastal Ron]

Is Dragon XL still a thing now?

Can SpaceX seriously count on having starship tankers, depot, freighter and a starshipish lunar lander by 2024, and yet still consider to develop a dragon for a later contract?

ISTM they are bluffing on one of them, and I hope it's XL.

NASA awarded SpaceX a contract potentially worth $7B for Dragon XL, so I can assure you that Dragon XL is a real thing.

As to Starship, I'm not sure why you think SpaceX can't have multiple products and services that they offer to multiple types of customers? And the profits from the Dragon XL program could help fund Starship development and operations.

That said, if Starship becomes operational and meets the goals Elon Musk has set out for it, then we could see NASA modifying their contract with SpaceX to replace the Dragon XL with Starship. But for now the plan is full speed ahead for Dragon XL.

[wannamoonbase]

Is Dragon XL still a thing now?

Can SpaceX seriously count on having starship tankers, depot, freighter and a starshipish lunar lander by 2024, and yet still consider to develop a dragon for a later contract?

ISTM they are bluffing on one of them, and I hope it's XL.

NASA awarded SpaceX a contract potentially worth $7B for Dragon XL, so I can assure you that Dragon XL is a real thing.

As to Starship, I'm not sure why you think SpaceX can't have multiple products and services that they offer to multiple types of customers? And the profits from the Dragon XL program could help fund Starship development and operations.

That said, if Starship becomes operational and meets the goals Elon Musk has set out for it, then we could see NASA modifying their contract with SpaceX to replace the Dragon XL with Starship. But for now the plan is full speed ahead for Dragon XL.

Wouldn't that be something, Starship showing up with 15 years of cargo at 1 time, LOL!

There is clearly some advantages of having Dragon XL.  The funds for Dragon XL are a carrot to have SpaceX put their own money into developing the Moon SS without needing NASA money.

A crewed lunar SS is a huge step, but NASA is almost daring them with a big bucket of money.

[dror]

Is Dragon XL still a thing now?

Can SpaceX seriously count on having starship tankers, depot, freighter and a starshipish lunar lander by 2024, and yet still consider to develop a dragon for a later contract?

ISTM they are bluffing on one of them, and I hope it's XL.

NASA awarded SpaceX a contract potentially worth $7B for Dragon XL, so I can assure you that Dragon XL is a real thing.

As to Starship, I'm not sure why you think SpaceX can't have multiple products and services that they offer to multiple types of customers? And the profits from the Dragon XL program could help fund Starship development and operations.

That said, if Starship becomes operational and meets the goals Elon Musk has set out for it, then we could see NASA modifying their contract with SpaceX to replace the Dragon XL with Starship. But for now the plan is full speed ahead for Dragon XL.

Starship is going to make all other launch vehicles obsolete, and that includes F9 snd FH.
No point in using F91.1 after F9 block 5 became operational, and there will be no point in using FH and Dragon cargo when starships are routinely passing by with fuel.
Add: They know from the start that Dragon XL is supposed to come later, because the LOPG was deemed non critical.

That's why I thought that If they are serious about the HLS contract deadline, than they cant be serious about Dragon XL.

[Coastal Ron]

That said, if Starship becomes operational and meets the goals Elon Musk has set out for it, then we could see NASA modifying their contract with SpaceX to replace the Dragon XL with Starship. But for now the plan is full speed ahead for Dragon XL.

Starship is going to make all other launch vehicles obsolete, and that includes F9 snd FH.

Someday, let's hope it does.

No point in using F91.1 after F9 block 5 became operational, and there will be no point in using FH and Dragon cargo when starships are routinely passing by with fuel.
Add: They know from the start that Dragon XL is supposed to come later, because the LOPG was deemed non critical.

That's why I thought that If they are serious about the HLS contract deadline, than they cant be serious about Dragon XL.

NASA did award a contract to SpaceX for Starship development in order to land crew and payloads on the Moon, so that is at least official acknowledgement that Starship COULD do what Elon Musk has been saying it will do.

But NASA had to commit to a transportation system that would meet their needs, and they felt Dragon XL did that. And we know that risk mitigation was an important factor in NASA choosing the Dragon XL, which makes sense since it should not be a risky vehicle for SpaceX.

Starship is still risky though, so bottom line is that NASA was looking for something to commit to TODAY, knowing that if things change in the future that they could shift their plans (although that may require some contract cancellation charges depending on when they do it).