Author Topic: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier  (Read 33204 times)

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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This is some pretty huge news - so I thought it deserved its own thread.

He'll be reporting to Hans Koenigsmann, so not exactly what connection to Starship it will be.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/11/spacex-hires-former-nasa-official-william-gerstenmaier.html

John
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Offline seawolfe

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The article didn't say whether Gerst would be working on the Crew Dragon or Starship side.  Or, did I miss that?

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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From the CNBC article:

Quote
In his new role Gerstenmaier is reporting to SpaceX vice president of mission assurance Hans Koenigsmann

Quote
A SpaceX spokesperson confirmed that Gerstenmaier is a consultant for the company's reliability engineering team.

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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The article didn't say whether Gerst would be working on the Crew Dragon or Starship side.  Or, did I miss that?
Well, Hans doesn't work on the Starship and Gerst is reporting to Hans - so by extension nor will Gerst. For now anyway.
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Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1227290722514194432

Quote
Huge hire for SpaceX for a number of reasons.

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1227290969797730304

Quote
Foremost is this gives the company gravitas within the traditional aerospace community and defense industry. Few people are more widely respected in aerospace than Gerstenmaier.

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1227291688739143680

Quote
Like, do you want to win government contracts for Starship? Because this is how you win government contracts for Starship.

Gerstenmaier was the ultimate insider in the civil space industry.

Yes, I think this must go further than Crew Dragon. Gerst obviously knows SpaceX very well but it’s quite different working for them than being the client.  May be helping get Crew Dragon over the line is a good way to check everyone is happy with the new arrangements?
« Last Edit: 02/11/2020 05:14 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Head of Roscosmos:

https://twitter.com/rogozin/status/1227297893981265920

Quote
Congratulations to the company @SpaceX with an invitation to work an outstanding specialist engineer, former head of the manned program @NASA William Gerstenmaier. Bill made a huge contribution to the success of the project. #МКС .
 I wish my friend success in a new job!

Online nuukee

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The article didn't say whether Gerst would be working on the Crew Dragon or Starship side.  Or, did I miss that?

It did not say that, but Crew Dragon is more or less finished.

I believe he is supposed to help with Starship, since it's currently being built without NASA supervision and experience (opposed to crew dragon).

Offline punder

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The news is coming fast and furious this week.

This is one of the more surprising bits of space news I've seen in quite a while... but it makes perfect sense. Definitely not a shortfall of gravitas, indeed.

Offline RoboGoofers

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The article didn't say whether Gerst would be working on the Crew Dragon or Starship side.  Or, did I miss that?

It did not say that, but Crew Dragon is more or less finished.

I believe he is supposed to help with Starship, since it's currently being built without NASA supervision and experience (opposed to crew dragon).
Hans role is overall mission assurance, so maybe Gerst is going to be human mission assurance. ie part of crew dragon team as it goes operational.
« Last Edit: 02/11/2020 06:07 pm by RoboGoofers »

Offline philw1776

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A safety culture hire first and foremost.  Astute of Musk to hire this competence where SpaceX is entering a new arena, human spaceflight.  Someone with direct experience to question unquestioned assumptions.
FULL SEND!!!!

Offline bstrong

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #10 on: 02/11/2020 06:12 pm »
Quote
A SpaceX spokesperson confirmed that Gerstenmaier is a consultant for the company’s reliability engineering team.

I think everyone needs to slow down a bit. He's a consultant, which usually implies a short-term advisory role. It could be a sort of trial period for both parties that morphs into a full-time leadership role, but I would not assume it from this article.

Offline ncb1397

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #11 on: 02/11/2020 06:18 pm »
So, has NASA verified that this meets government regulations?

Quote
Further limitations upon the post-government employment activities of certain officials exist
under so-called “procurement integrity” provisions of federal law for those former federal
officials who had acted as contracting officers or who had other specified contracting or
procurement functions for an agency. These additional restrictions go beyond the prohibitions on
merely “representational,” lobbying, or advocacy activities on behalf of private entities before the
government, and extend also to any compensated activity for or on behalf of certain private
contractors for a period of time after a former procurement official had worked on certain
contracts for the government.

The current post-employment restrictions within the procurement integrity provisions of federal
law are codified at 41 U.S.C. Sections 2103 and 2104. Under such provisions, former federal
officials who were involved in certain contracting and procurement duties for the government
concerning contracts in excess of $10 million may generally not receive any compensation from
the private contractor involved, as an employee, officer, consultant, or director of that contractor,
for one year after performing those procurement duties for the government.27
The types of contracting duties and decisions for the government which would trigger coverage
under these provisions include acting as the “procuring contracting officer, the source selection
authority, a member of the source selection evaluation board, or the chief of a financial or
technical evaluation team in a procurement” in excess of $10 million; serving as the program
manager, deputy program manager, or administrative contracting officer for covered contracts; or
being an officer who personally made decisions awarding a contract, subcontract, modification of
a contract, or task order or delivery order in excess of $10 million
, establishing overhead or other
rates valued in excess of $10 million, or approving payments or settlement of claims for a
contract in excess of the covered amount.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42728.pdf

I'm frankly surprised they didn't wait a year since Wiliam Gerstenmaier was removed as head of HEOMD to give him a job since he could be considered a program manager for SpaceX's commercial crew and cargo contracts.


So, has NASA verified that this meets government regulations?

Quote
Further limitations upon the post-government employment activities of certain officials exist
under so-called “procurement integrity” provisions of federal law for those former federal
officials who had acted as contracting officers or who had other specified contracting or
procurement functions for an agency. These additional restrictions go beyond the prohibitions on
merely “representational,” lobbying, or advocacy activities on behalf of private entities before the
government, and extend also to any compensated activity for or on behalf of certain private
contractors for a period of time after a former procurement official had worked on certain
contracts for the government.

The current post-employment restrictions within the procurement integrity provisions of federal
law are codified at 41 U.S.C. Sections 2103 and 2104. Under such provisions, former federal
officials who were involved in certain contracting and procurement duties for the government
concerning contracts in excess of $10 million may generally not receive any compensation from
the private contractor involved, as an employee, officer, consultant, or director of that contractor,
for one year after performing those procurement duties for the government.27
The types of contracting duties and decisions for the government which would trigger coverage
under these provisions include acting as the “procuring contracting officer, the source selection
authority, a member of the source selection evaluation board, or the chief of a financial or
technical evaluation team in a procurement” in excess of $10 million; serving as the program
manager, deputy program manager, or administrative contracting officer for covered contracts; or
being an officer who personally made decisions awarding a contract, subcontract, modification of
a contract, or task order or delivery order in excess of $10 million
, establishing overhead or other
rates valued in excess of $10 million, or approving payments or settlement of claims for a
contract in excess of the covered amount.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42728.pdf

I'm frankly surprised they didn't wait a year since Wiliam Gerstenmaier was removed as head of HEOMD to give him a job since he could be considered a program manager for SpaceX's commercial crew and cargo contracts.

Maybe that's why his title contractor for now... this great for SpaceX and NASA. 

Offline Nehkara

Quote
A SpaceX spokesperson confirmed that Gerstenmaier is a consultant for the company’s reliability engineering team.

I think everyone needs to slow down a bit. He's a consultant, which usually implies a short-term advisory role. It could be a sort of trial period for both parties that morphs into a full-time leadership role, but I would not assume it from this article.

Eric Berger just posted an article in which he says:

"Although the role is officially a consultancy, it is expected to become a full-time position."

Offline ncb1397

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #14 on: 02/11/2020 06:36 pm »
So, has NASA verified that this meets government regulations?

Quote
Further limitations upon the post-government employment activities of certain officials exist
under so-called “procurement integrity” provisions of federal law for those former federal
officials who had acted as contracting officers or who had other specified contracting or
procurement functions for an agency. These additional restrictions go beyond the prohibitions on
merely “representational,” lobbying, or advocacy activities on behalf of private entities before the
government, and extend also to any compensated activity for or on behalf of certain private
contractors for a period of time after a former procurement official had worked on certain
contracts for the government.

The current post-employment restrictions within the procurement integrity provisions of federal
law are codified at 41 U.S.C. Sections 2103 and 2104. Under such provisions, former federal
officials who were involved in certain contracting and procurement duties for the government
concerning contracts in excess of $10 million may generally not receive any compensation from
the private contractor involved, as an employee, officer, consultant, or director of that contractor,
for one year after performing those procurement duties for the government.27
The types of contracting duties and decisions for the government which would trigger coverage
under these provisions include acting as the “procuring contracting officer, the source selection
authority, a member of the source selection evaluation board, or the chief of a financial or
technical evaluation team in a procurement” in excess of $10 million; serving as the program
manager, deputy program manager, or administrative contracting officer for covered contracts; or
being an officer who personally made decisions awarding a contract, subcontract, modification of
a contract, or task order or delivery order in excess of $10 million
, establishing overhead or other
rates valued in excess of $10 million, or approving payments or settlement of claims for a
contract in excess of the covered amount.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42728.pdf

I'm frankly surprised they didn't wait a year since Wiliam Gerstenmaier was removed as head of HEOMD to give him a job since he could be considered a program manager for SpaceX's commercial crew and cargo contracts.

Maybe that's why his title contractor for now... this great for SpaceX and NASA.

Well, the CRS-2, CRS and commercial crew contracts may not be covered contracts because decisions on those weren't made in the last year (again,NASA has the information on this internally). So, even though he was a program manager (or rather the program manager's manager), those don't count as covered contracts. If NASA's, SpaceX's and Gerstenmaier's lawyers all looked at this thoroughly and it went through, it is at least an interesting anecdote about what is and is not legal.
« Last Edit: 02/11/2020 06:39 pm by ncb1397 »

Offline Nehkara

https://twitter.com/Lori_Garver/status/1227314895533813761

Quote
Lori Garver
@Lori_Garver

This is awesome!  After holding his cards close as a civil servant for decades - Gerst plays his hand!  Congrats & huge win for
@SpaceX & commercial crew!  SpaceX brings on NASA's former top spaceflight official as it prepares to launch first astronauts

Online DigitalMan

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #16 on: 02/11/2020 06:55 pm »
So, has NASA verified that this meets government regulations?

Quote
Further limitations upon the post-government employment activities of certain officials exist
under so-called “procurement integrity” provisions of federal law for those former federal
officials who had acted as contracting officers or who had other specified contracting or
procurement functions for an agency. These additional restrictions go beyond the prohibitions on
merely “representational,” lobbying, or advocacy activities on behalf of private entities before the
government, and extend also to any compensated activity for or on behalf of certain private
contractors for a period of time after a former procurement official had worked on certain
contracts for the government.

The current post-employment restrictions within the procurement integrity provisions of federal
law are codified at 41 U.S.C. Sections 2103 and 2104. Under such provisions, former federal
officials who were involved in certain contracting and procurement duties for the government
concerning contracts in excess of $10 million may generally not receive any compensation from
the private contractor involved, as an employee, officer, consultant, or director of that contractor,
for one year after performing those procurement duties for the government.27
The types of contracting duties and decisions for the government which would trigger coverage
under these provisions include acting as the “procuring contracting officer, the source selection
authority, a member of the source selection evaluation board, or the chief of a financial or
technical evaluation team in a procurement” in excess of $10 million; serving as the program
manager, deputy program manager, or administrative contracting officer for covered contracts; or
being an officer who personally made decisions awarding a contract, subcontract, modification of
a contract, or task order or delivery order in excess of $10 million
, establishing overhead or other
rates valued in excess of $10 million, or approving payments or settlement of claims for a
contract in excess of the covered amount.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42728.pdf

I'm frankly surprised they didn't wait a year since Wiliam Gerstenmaier was removed as head of HEOMD to give him a job since he could be considered a program manager for SpaceX's commercial crew and cargo contracts.

Maybe that's why his title contractor for now... this great for SpaceX and NASA.

Well, the CRS-2, CRS and commercial crew contracts may not be covered contracts because decisions on those weren't made in the last year (again,NASA has the information on this internally). So, even though he was a program manager (or rather the program manager's manager), those don't count as covered contracts. If NASA's, SpaceX's and Gerstenmaier's lawyers all looked at this thoroughly and it went through, it is at least an interesting anecdote about what is and is not legal.

I suppose this means he couldn't go to Boeing because of the extra money they got not too long ago, no?

Offline DistantTemple

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #17 on: 02/11/2020 07:22 pm »
Congratulations!
This really shows SpaceX means business. While it is great for Dragon2 and CC. That is just the introduction. However even there it sort of says "SpaceX is running by the same (high) safety values as NASA", or "we now have the same management that NASA had for HSF" etc.

However Starship is appearing so fast, and is so unbelievable, that even when it has orbited, and even when it has refuelled, and even when it has launched a few satellites, getting the world, the FAA, NASA, and the American people and Government to accept it flying people will be a big step.

From the other side, putting the right HSF safety criteria into building Starship, and its HSF "module", or "accommodation" from early in the design is essential both for physical progress and success, as well as "regulatory" acceptance. (I do know that "spaceflight participants" effectively self certify their own risk, but this does not dismiss all official oversight and interest.)

Having Bill Gerstenmaier as an overseer and leading influence, will massively help SX keep SS HSF safe, probably speed decision making over safety strategy and engineering, as well as project the idea that SX is taking HSF seriously, and incorporating "NASA's" best expertise.

Dragon and Dragon2 are "just" capsules like the Apollo Command Module. (OK slight exaggeration), copying the basic configuration, flight profiles, re-entry method etc.... It is not unreasonable for highly skilled, and dedicated engineers to succeed with them.

However Starship is a revolution. The size of the human pressure vessel, the method of re-entry, landing, the fuel, refuelling, expected long duration..... materials... no launch abort etc etc..... Yes, a (the) top level leader for human spaceflight, Gerst, is a real statement of intent from SpaceX, and from Gerst of confidence. Brilliant.

And what an amazing role for him, helping usher in the revolution is space travel!
(And he plumped for the winning team too!)
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

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Offline dondar

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #19 on: 02/11/2020 07:50 pm »
Quote
A SpaceX spokesperson confirmed that Gerstenmaier is a consultant for the company’s reliability engineering team.

I think everyone needs to slow down a bit. He's a consultant, which usually implies a short-term advisory role. It could be a sort of trial period for both parties that morphs into a full-time leadership role, but I would not assume it from this article.
he participated in the design of  ISS. He knows literally everybody in the ISS program (not only American part). He is the best person to ask where to look and who to hire.
I doubt he is hired to do anything to help with crew Dragon program or "Starship" for that matter.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #20 on: 02/11/2020 09:17 pm »
Gerst will speak truth to power, I hope Elon listens...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #21 on: 02/11/2020 10:14 pm »
I know a Gerst is intimately familiar with the SpaceX culture of innovate hard, build fast, fail big, learn copiously, repeat. But it’s another thing to be IN that culture. I hope there’s a strong synergy developed and Gerst’s brake pumping will integrate well with Elon’s lead foot...
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Offline rcoppola

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #22 on: 02/11/2020 10:49 pm »
I think they want Gerst to be Gerst. He'll bring an exceptional expertise and rigor in transitioning Dragon out of development, through certification and into an operational HSF platform for NASA and others. He could also be hugely consequential wrt the upcoming Lunar Lander program.

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Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #23 on: 02/11/2020 11:01 pm »
https://twitter.com/davemosher/status/1227376195672707072

Quote
A tremendous addition to the SpaceX team while keeping Bill in the greater Human Spaceflight Family.  He will help make an already excellent team even better.  Congrats to you Bill and to SpaceX!!!  - Charlie B.

Offline punder

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #24 on: 02/11/2020 11:18 pm »
He could also be hugely consequential wrt the upcoming Lunar Lander program.

I think you've hit on the key, there.

Offline Hog

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #25 on: 02/12/2020 12:10 am »
Let's not for get his decades of experience with the worlds first operational reusable orbiter vehicle.




Gerstenmaier (left) working on a space shuttle wind tunnel test at the Glenn Research Center in 1978.

Over 40 years of civil service, time to get PAID. Good for him.

Offline TorenAltair

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #26 on: 02/12/2020 12:14 am »
Just spit my water onto the tablet as I read johnnyhinbos‘ news...

I would have expected Gerstenmaier to end in an old aerospace company.

PS: would you mind calling him Gerstenmaier and not Gerst? Gerst is our German astronaut (from my hometown ;) )
« Last Edit: 02/12/2020 12:15 am by TorenAltair »

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #27 on: 02/12/2020 09:09 am »
I know a Gerst is intimately familiar with the SpaceX culture of innovate hard, build fast, fail big, learn copiously, repeat. But it’s another thing to be IN that culture. I hope there’s a strong synergy developed and Gerst’s brake pumping will integrate well with Elon’s lead foot...

He won't be on that level IMO. Gerst is reporting to Hans. So they are hiring him to strengthen mission reliability. Of which a strong safety culture is only a part, as is politics.

IMO the main reason SpaceX is hiring Gerst is because of his huge network both inside NASA and inside Washington. If SpaceX wants their long-term project to be successful it will need the goodwill and blessing of both NASA and the folks on the Hill. With Gerst SpaceX just hired a MAJOR source of leverage to assure SpaceX gets that goodwill and blessing.
« Last Edit: 02/12/2020 11:37 am by woods170 »

Online JamesH65

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #28 on: 02/12/2020 11:59 am »
So, has NASA verified that this meets government regulations?

Quote
Further limitations upon the post-government employment activities of certain officials exist
under so-called “procurement integrity” provisions of federal law for those former federal
officials who had acted as contracting officers or who had other specified contracting or
procurement functions for an agency. These additional restrictions go beyond the prohibitions on
merely “representational,” lobbying, or advocacy activities on behalf of private entities before the
government, and extend also to any compensated activity for or on behalf of certain private
contractors for a period of time after a former procurement official had worked on certain
contracts for the government.

The current post-employment restrictions within the procurement integrity provisions of federal
law are codified at 41 U.S.C. Sections 2103 and 2104. Under such provisions, former federal
officials who were involved in certain contracting and procurement duties for the government
concerning contracts in excess of $10 million may generally not receive any compensation from
the private contractor involved, as an employee, officer, consultant, or director of that contractor,
for one year after performing those procurement duties for the government.27
The types of contracting duties and decisions for the government which would trigger coverage
under these provisions include acting as the “procuring contracting officer, the source selection
authority, a member of the source selection evaluation board, or the chief of a financial or
technical evaluation team in a procurement” in excess of $10 million; serving as the program
manager, deputy program manager, or administrative contracting officer for covered contracts; or
being an officer who personally made decisions awarding a contract, subcontract, modification of
a contract, or task order or delivery order in excess of $10 million
, establishing overhead or other
rates valued in excess of $10 million, or approving payments or settlement of claims for a
contract in excess of the covered amount.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42728.pdf

I'm frankly surprised they didn't wait a year since Wiliam Gerstenmaier was removed as head of HEOMD to give him a job since he could be considered a program manager for SpaceX's commercial crew and cargo contracts.

Maybe that's why his title contractor for now... this great for SpaceX and NASA.

Well, the CRS-2, CRS and commercial crew contracts may not be covered contracts because decisions on those weren't made in the last year (again,NASA has the information on this internally). So, even though he was a program manager (or rather the program manager's manager), those don't count as covered contracts. If NASA's, SpaceX's and Gerstenmaier's lawyers all looked at this thoroughly and it went through, it is at least an interesting anecdote about what is and is not legal.

I suppose this means he couldn't go to Boeing because of the extra money they got not too long ago, no?

Why would he go to Boeing (eventually)? Only reason I can think of is a huge paypacket. SpaceX is where all the excitement is.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #29 on: 02/12/2020 01:07 pm »
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1227580840038805504

Quote
The candid, off-the-record reaction I've gotten from flight directors and astronauts in Houston to Bill Gerstenmaier's move to SpaceX has been very positive. It's seen as good for both NASA and the company.

Offline Proponent

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #30 on: 02/12/2020 02:08 pm »
Why would he go to Boeing (eventually)? Only reason I can think of is a huge paypacket....

Yes, and that might be a very good reason, especially for someone who's spent a career on a civil-service pay-scale.  And given Boeing's deep problems with Starliner, amplified by all its other quagmires, it would likely pay very handsomely now for Gerstenmeier's credibility now.

All of this is further amplified by the fact that Boeing's problems are a threat SpaceX.  Urged on by the likes of former astronaut Stafford, Congress, particularly the House (see H.R. 5666) tends to view Starliner's travails not as a sign that Boeing is a bad contractor but that anything other than traditional, NASA-owned and managed systems are dangerous.

Offline ncb1397

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #31 on: 02/12/2020 08:18 pm »


All of this is further amplified by the fact that Boeing's problems are a threat SpaceX.  Urged on by the likes of former astronaut Stafford, Congress, particularly the House (see H.R. 5666) tends to view Starliner's travails not as a sign that Boeing is a bad contractor but that anything other than traditional, NASA-owned and managed systems are dangerous.

They kind of have a point. Dragon has a 5% cargo loss rate, over 3x higher than Shuttle that it replaced. Cygnus is even worse at 9% or 6x higher than the Shuttle that they replaced. Both providers on the crew side had serious anomalies with their uncrewed demonstration vehicles mere months before they were supposed to fly crewed that included the risk of LOV and LOV. While the space shuttle had the risk of LOV on its first mission, it wasn't until much farther in that any shuttle was lost in a mishap.
« Last Edit: 02/12/2020 08:20 pm by ncb1397 »

Offline Tommyboy

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #32 on: 02/12/2020 08:34 pm »


All of this is further amplified by the fact that Boeing's problems are a threat SpaceX.  Urged on by the likes of former astronaut Stafford, Congress, particularly the House (see H.R. 5666) tends to view Starliner's travails not as a sign that Boeing is a bad contractor but that anything other than traditional, NASA-owned and managed systems are dangerous.

They kind of have a point. Dragon has a 5% cargo loss rate, over 3x higher than Shuttle that it replaced. Cygnus is even worse at 9% or 6x higher than the Shuttle that they replaced. Both providers on the crew side had serious anomalies with their uncrewed demonstration vehicles mere months before they were supposed to fly crewed that included the risk of LOV and LOV. While the space shuttle had the risk of LOV on its first mission, it wasn't until much farther in that any shuttle was lost in a mishap.
Apples and oranges. Shuttle was a crew vehicle as well, and as such had to abide by much more stringent engineering rules. By your same logic, we can consider both Dragon 1 and Cygnus as much safer crew transport vehicles because they have killed zero crews, while shuttle has killed two. Or calculate the loss of payload of Shuttle and Falcon 9 over their last 25 missions. Now which one is the safer vehicle?
How many near-misses has Shuttle had? I wasn't following spaceflight during the Shuttle era, but I know of at least two shuttle missions that almost failed (heat shield damage with only an antenna mount saving the orbiter, and one with one of the plugs in the engine bell cooling channels coming loose mid-ascent).
« Last Edit: 02/12/2020 08:37 pm by Tommyboy »

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #33 on: 02/12/2020 10:10 pm »


All of this is further amplified by the fact that Boeing's problems are a threat SpaceX.  Urged on by the likes of former astronaut Stafford, Congress, particularly the House (see H.R. 5666) tends to view Starliner's travails not as a sign that Boeing is a bad contractor but that anything other than traditional, NASA-owned and managed systems are dangerous.

They kind of have a point. Dragon has a 5% cargo loss rate, over 3x higher than Shuttle that it replaced. Cygnus is even worse at 9% or 6x higher than the Shuttle that they replaced. Both providers on the crew side had serious anomalies with their uncrewed demonstration vehicles mere months before they were supposed to fly crewed that included the risk of LOV and LOV. While the space shuttle had the risk of LOV on its first mission, it wasn't until much farther in that any shuttle was lost in a mishap.

SMDH
Take with grain of salt, it's a troll comment.

It's always possible to mess with statistics to arrive at statements that are mathematically correct but fully misleading.

You can always extrapolate early failures into the steady state, and thus predict a horrible track records.

You can ignore things like escape systems on capsules that would have made cargo incidents survivable.  (Or for that matter, just contingency parachute opening code)

Shrug.
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Offline ncb1397

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #34 on: 02/12/2020 10:33 pm »

You can always extrapolate early failures into the steady state, and thus predict a horrible track records.
 

The statistics back it up however you look at it. Up to this point in Dragon and Cygnus' mission count, space shuttle had zero loss of cargo or crew. And it is fully backed up by theory. With programs like shuttle, you had two intimately involved organizations with differing priorities(one public, one private) responsible and looking after crew safety and reliability. This protects from organizational errors as each organization in turn has to falter (for instance, with the launch of challenger when there wasn't data on the SRB behavior in those precise conditions where both the contractor and the public agency approved the launch and the risk it represented). With the current hands off approach, any organizational defects or oversights in the engineering rests nearly entirely on the contractor with the public agency not providing full oversight. NASA likely didn't know or have the man power to go over every software test's data and show the starliner service module code wasn't fully functional. They also didn't have the manpower or resources to make sure one way valves weren't liable to leak, something that escaped attention from the contractor but could have been caught by NASA's inspectors. 
« Last Edit: 02/12/2020 10:34 pm by ncb1397 »

Offline DistantTemple

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #35 on: 02/12/2020 10:37 pm »


All of this is further amplified by the fact that Boeing's problems are a threat SpaceX.  Urged on by the likes of former astronaut Stafford, Congress, particularly the House (see H.R. 5666) tends to view Starliner's travails not as a sign that Boeing is a bad contractor but that anything other than traditional, NASA-owned and managed systems are dangerous.

They kind of have a point. Dragon has a 5% cargo loss rate, over 3x higher than Shuttle that it replaced. Cygnus is even worse at 9% or 6x higher than the Shuttle that they replaced. Both providers on the crew side had serious anomalies with their uncrewed demonstration vehicles mere months before they were supposed to fly crewed that included the risk of LOV and LOV. While the space shuttle had the risk of LOV on its first mission, it wasn't until much farther in that any shuttle was lost in a mishap.

SMDH
Yes seriously the proponents above have an excellent point. In the spirit of true balance, and backed up just like the logic in the argument above with precise mathematics, the shuttle became operational in 1981, and flew until 2011. The shuttles flew 132 missions. In that time it lost exactly 0% of its cargo only missions, giving a perfect 100% safety record. This leaves Dragon 2 in the dust. When combined with to 30 years of STS missions that is an amazing record. Compared with this Dragon has only flown 19 times in 7 years, and had one total loss, and recently a second total loss of D2. This means that Dragon averages a total loss every 3.5 years. BMDHAtW.
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Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #36 on: 02/12/2020 10:37 pm »

You can always extrapolate early failures into the steady state, and thus predict a horrible track records.
 

The statistics back it up however you look at it. Up to this point in Dragon and Cygnus' mission count, space shuttle had zero loss of cargo or crew. And it is fully backed up by theory. With programs like shuttle, you had two intimately involved organizations with differing priorities(one public, one private) responsible and looking after crew safety and reliability. This protects from organizational errors as each organization in turn has to falter (for instance, with the launch of challenger when there wasn't data on the SRB behavior in those precise conditions where both the contractor and the public agency approved the launch and the risk it represented). With the current hands off approach, any organizational defects or oversights in the engineering rests nearly entirely on the contractor with the public agency not providing full oversight. NASA likely didn't know or have the man power to go over every software test's data and show the starliner service module code wasn't fully functional. They also didn't have the manpower or resources to make sure one way valves weren't liable to leak, something that escaped attention from the contractor but could have been caught by NASA's inspectors.
A) With a manned program, you wouldn't fly on a modified rocket until proven with cargo first.

B) A manned capsule has an escape system.

So...  You're just mixing numbers.
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Offline dglow

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #37 on: 02/13/2020 12:53 am »

You can always extrapolate early failures into the steady state, and thus predict a horrible track records.
 

The statistics back it up however you look at it. Up to this point in Dragon and Cygnus' mission count, space shuttle had zero loss of cargo or crew. And it is fully backed up by theory. With programs like shuttle, you had two intimately involved organizations with differing priorities(one public, one private) responsible and looking after crew safety and reliability. This protects from organizational errors as each organization in turn has to falter (for instance, with the launch of challenger when there wasn't data on the SRB behavior in those precise conditions where both the contractor and the public agency approved the launch and the risk it represented). With the current hands off approach, any organizational defects or oversights in the engineering rests nearly entirely on the contractor with the public agency not providing full oversight. NASA likely didn't know or have the man power to go over every software test's data and show the starliner service module code wasn't fully functional. They also didn't have the manpower or resources to make sure one way valves weren't liable to leak, something that escaped attention from the contractor but could have been caught by NASA's inspectors.
A) With a manned program, you wouldn't fly on a modified rocket until proven with cargo first.

Why test with cargo when you can do it with astronauts?

STS: no reason to robot when you have seats upfront. Whoowhee!

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Offline Lemurion

I would definitely describe this as everyone but Boeing wins. Gerstenmaier’s street credibility will do wonders for SpaceX both in the industry and when it comes to dealing with foreign partners. He has probably already doubled the Russians’ level of acceptance of Crew Dragon.

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #40 on: 02/13/2020 02:26 am »
That's hard to prove, even anecdotally. But it's probable.
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Offline GWH

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #41 on: 02/13/2020 03:03 pm »
I am thinking this has as much to do with private ISS flights as NASA ones, I bet we here more on that soon.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #42 on: 02/16/2020 11:01 pm »

"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline Proponent

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #43 on: 02/18/2020 12:28 pm »
Mark Whittington suggests that Gerst's value to SpaceX will be principally in promoting Starship.

Offline kessdawg

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #44 on: 02/18/2020 01:35 pm »
Quote
Things might change if Gerstenmaier bestows his blessing on the SpaceX Starship. If the Space Launch System runs into some of the same problems that other Boeing vehicles, such as the Starliner and the 737-Max have, then with any luck, the SpaceX Starship will be available as a Plan B. Gerstenmaier could serve an invaluable role in selling the Starship, not only to NASA, but to other customers. The United States is not the only country with lunar aspirations. One can imagine the European Space Agency or perhaps the Gulf Arab States leasing a Starship to send an expedition to the lunar surface.


Gerstenmaier could serve as the ultimate rainmaker for SpaceX. A rainmaker is usually a senior partner at a law firm whose role is to drum up business by virtue of who he or she knows. Bill Gerstenmaier knows a lot of people, many of who may be willing to spend money to obtain the services that SpaceX has to offer.

Interesting that the author thinks SpaceX hired Gerstenmaier for his rolodex.

Also: oof those reader comments.

Offline Tommyboy

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #45 on: 02/18/2020 06:01 pm »
Quote
Things might change if Gerstenmaier bestows his blessing on the SpaceX Starship. If the Space Launch System runs into some of the same problems that other Boeing vehicles, such as the Starliner and the 737-Max have, then with any luck, the SpaceX Starship will be available as a Plan B. Gerstenmaier could serve an invaluable role in selling the Starship, not only to NASA, but to other customers. The United States is not the only country with lunar aspirations. One can imagine the European Space Agency or perhaps the Gulf Arab States leasing a Starship to send an expedition to the lunar surface.


Gerstenmaier could serve as the ultimate rainmaker for SpaceX. A rainmaker is usually a senior partner at a law firm whose role is to drum up business by virtue of who he or she knows. Bill Gerstenmaier knows a lot of people, many of who may be willing to spend money to obtain the services that SpaceX has to offer.

Interesting that the author thinks SpaceX hired Gerstenmaier for his rolodex.

Also: oof those reader comments.
I feel like an idiot for asking this but... Where can I find those reader comments? Both Chrome and Firefox are not showing any comments for me, both with and without an adblocker.

Offline kessdawg

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #46 on: 02/18/2020 06:07 pm »
I see them (on desktop browser) two places: before the article on the byline, and after the article beneath the "Share" and "Tweet" button (button says "Load Comments(15)" right now.

Online butters

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #47 on: 02/18/2020 06:40 pm »
Mark Whittington suggests that Gerst's value to SpaceX will be principally in promoting Starship.

It's certainly a cheaper way to buy credibility in government aerospace procurement circles than Blue Origin's decision to buy credibility by making a deal with ULA, delaying their own roadmap in order to scale up BE-4 for Vulcan, and building an engine factory in Huntsville.

Elon is a polarizing character. He's very impressive for some audiences and off-putting to others. That why Gwynne Shotwell has been a cornerstone of SpaceX's rise. Gwynne will reliably impress anyone at any meeting and leave everybody with the impression that they can count on SpaceX to deliver.

Gerst has the potential to fit this role as well, providing a one-two punch for the customer charm offensives and allowing Gwynne more time for her other responsibilities. It easy to imagine somebody like Sen. Ted Cruz being more receptive to a Starship pitch given by Gerst than the same pitch given by Gwynne, fair or not.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #48 on: 02/18/2020 07:02 pm »
There are very good reasons for SpaceX to hire Gerst totally unrelated to the fact that he formerly presided over an organization giving government money to SpaceX.

But he did preside over an organization giving government money to SpaceX.  I think it's improper for him to later get benefits from SpaceX because of that.

It's like a lawyer with a case before a judge meeting alone with the judge.  There might be perfectly good reasons for that to happen that have nothing to do with the case.  But it's still improper.  It's important to have a clear rule against such things, to secure against the possibility of corruption, even unconscious corruption.

Even if everything with SpaceX and Gerst is innocent, the message it sends to other government employees, intended or not, is corrupting.  It says that if they if SpaceX likes them, they can have a huge personal benefit for themselves later.

Other big government aerospace contractors have been doing this for decades, and it was wrong then, and it's wrong now for it to be happening with SpaceX.

EDIT: Note that I'm not saying this is illegal.  I think it is legal.  I think the laws on such conduct are insufficient.
« Last Edit: 02/18/2020 07:03 pm by ChrisWilson68 »

Offline eric_astro

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #49 on: 02/18/2020 07:28 pm »
Who is going to MAKE Boeing play fair.

Oh I see... don't worry about it.

Offline Tommyboy

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #50 on: 02/18/2020 07:30 pm »
I see them (on desktop browser) two places: before the article on the byline, and after the article beneath the "Share" and "Tweet" button (button says "Load Comments(15)" right now.
When using a proxy in the US I was able to see the comments. It seems like I was being region blocked. Sigh...

Online abaddon

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #51 on: 02/18/2020 07:34 pm »
There are very good reasons for SpaceX to hire Gerst totally unrelated to the fact that he formerly presided over an organization giving government money to SpaceX.

But he did preside over an organization giving government money to SpaceX.  I think it's improper for him to later get benefits from SpaceX because of that.

It's like a lawyer with a case before a judge meeting alone with the judge.  There might be perfectly good reasons for that to happen that have nothing to do with the case.  But it's still improper.  It's important to have a clear rule against such things, to secure against the possibility of corruption, even unconscious corruption.

Even if everything with SpaceX and Gerst is innocent, the message it sends to other government employees, intended or not, is corrupting.  It says that if they if SpaceX likes them, they can have a huge personal benefit for themselves later.

Other big government aerospace contractors have been doing this for decades, and it was wrong then, and it's wrong now for it to be happening with SpaceX.

EDIT: Note that I'm not saying this is illegal.  I think it is legal.  I think the laws on such conduct are insufficient.
NASA works with everyone in aerospace.  Are you saying Gerst effectively shouldn't be allowed to pursue a career as a civilian after employment by NASA?

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #52 on: 02/18/2020 07:42 pm »
There are very good reasons for SpaceX to hire Gerst totally unrelated to the fact that he formerly presided over an organization giving government money to SpaceX.

But he did preside over an organization giving government money to SpaceX.  I think it's improper for him to later get benefits from SpaceX because of that.

It's like a lawyer with a case before a judge meeting alone with the judge.  There might be perfectly good reasons for that to happen that have nothing to do with the case.  But it's still improper.  It's important to have a clear rule against such things, to secure against the possibility of corruption, even unconscious corruption.

Even if everything with SpaceX and Gerst is innocent, the message it sends to other government employees, intended or not, is corrupting.  It says that if they if SpaceX likes them, they can have a huge personal benefit for themselves later.

Other big government aerospace contractors have been doing this for decades, and it was wrong then, and it's wrong now for it to be happening with SpaceX.

EDIT: Note that I'm not saying this is illegal.  I think it is legal.  I think the laws on such conduct are insufficient.
NASA works with everyone in aerospace.  Are you saying Gerst effectively shouldn't be allowed to pursue a career as a civilian after employment by NASA?

Gerst's experience leading a large, highly-visible organization would be highly valuable to a huge number of companies in a huge number of industries.

When someone has a highly-successful career in the military, their prospects after leaving the service are not limited to defense contractors.  Many of them go on to highly-successful careers in every sort of industry.

Good leadership is valuable everywhere.

Online abaddon

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #53 on: 02/18/2020 07:48 pm »
There are very good reasons for SpaceX to hire Gerst totally unrelated to the fact that he formerly presided over an organization giving government money to SpaceX.

But he did preside over an organization giving government money to SpaceX.  I think it's improper for him to later get benefits from SpaceX because of that.

It's like a lawyer with a case before a judge meeting alone with the judge.  There might be perfectly good reasons for that to happen that have nothing to do with the case.  But it's still improper.  It's important to have a clear rule against such things, to secure against the possibility of corruption, even unconscious corruption.

Even if everything with SpaceX and Gerst is innocent, the message it sends to other government employees, intended or not, is corrupting.  It says that if they if SpaceX likes them, they can have a huge personal benefit for themselves later.

Other big government aerospace contractors have been doing this for decades, and it was wrong then, and it's wrong now for it to be happening with SpaceX.

EDIT: Note that I'm not saying this is illegal.  I think it is legal.  I think the laws on such conduct are insufficient.
NASA works with everyone in aerospace.  Are you saying Gerst effectively shouldn't be allowed to pursue a career as a civilian after employment by NASA?

Gerst's experience leading a large, highly-visible organization would be highly valuable to a huge number of companies in a huge number of industries.

When someone has a highly-successful career in the military, their prospects after leaving the service are not limited to defense contractors.  Many of them go on to highly-successful careers in every sort of industry.

Good leadership is valuable everywhere.
So you think it's fine to exclude someone like him from an entire industry, got it.

Yeah... can't agree with that, at all.  Shrug.

Offline Arb

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #54 on: 02/18/2020 08:12 pm »
Mark Whittington suggests that Gerst's value to SpaceX will be principally in promoting Starship.
That article is pure speculation.

Whittington has been indulging in similar evidence-free pontification since the glory days of the sci.space.* newsgroups.

My sense back then was that the opposite of anything he said would generally be close to the truth of the matter...

Looks like that's still the case.

YMMV

Offline Tulse

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #55 on: 02/18/2020 08:30 pm »
I would think if Gerst was hired primarily for lobbying, he'd be based in Washington instead of Hawthorne. It sounds to me like his role is much more on the engineering side.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #56 on: 02/18/2020 11:46 pm »
So you think it's fine to exclude someone like him from an entire industry, got it.

Yeah... can't agree with that, at all.  Shrug.

That's the price of taking a government job, going out on a limb to defend SpaceX from scrutiny, get reassigned and then magically SpaceX starts hitting their timeline again.

It's not only improper for Gerstenmaier to go work for SpaceX, it's abundantly clear that he has been actively shielding SpaceX for years and slowing down the start of commercial crew services. It's fair to assume that his job at SpaceX will involve doing the same.

Pathological risk reduction.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #57 on: 02/19/2020 12:55 am »
Ethics rules limit what a former federal employee  can do for varying periods,

Link...

Quote
Title 5: Administrative Personnel

PART 2641—POST-EMPLOYMENT CONFLICT OF INTEREST RESTRICTIONS


Contents

Subpart A—General Provisions

§2641.101   Purpose.
§2641.102   Applicability.
§2641.103   Enforcement and penalties.
§2641.104   Definitions.
§2641.105   Advice.
§2641.106   Applicability of certain provisions to Vice President.
Subpart B—Prohibitions

§2641.201   Permanent restriction on any former employee's representations to United States concerning particular matter in which the employee participated personally and substantially.

§2641.202   Two-year restriction on any former employee's representations to United States concerning particular matter for which the employee had official responsibility.

§2641.203   One-year restriction on any former employee's representations, aid, or advice concerning ongoing trade or treaty negotiation.

§2641.204   One-year restriction on any former senior employee's representations to former agency concerning any matter, regardless of prior involvement.

§2641.205   Two-year restriction on any former very senior employee's representations to former agency or certain officials concerning any matter, regardless of prior involvement.

§2641.206   One-year restriction on any former senior or very senior employee's representations on behalf of, or aid or advice to, a foreign entity.

§2641.207   One-year restriction on any former private sector assignee under the Information Technology Exchange Program representing, aiding, counseling or assisting in representing in connection with any contract with former agency.
>
« Last Edit: 02/19/2020 12:56 am by docmordrid »
DM

Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #58 on: 02/19/2020 01:33 am »
So you think it's fine to exclude someone like him from an entire industry, got it.

Yeah... can't agree with that, at all.  Shrug.

That's the price of taking a government job, going out on a limb to defend SpaceX from scrutiny, get reassigned and then magically SpaceX starts hitting their timeline again.

It's not only improper for Gerstenmaier to go work for SpaceX, it's abundantly clear that he has been actively shielding SpaceX for years and slowing down the start of commercial crew services. It's fair to assume that his job at SpaceX will involve doing the same.

Pathological risk reduction.

That makes no sense, if all he does is slow down things, why would SpaceX hire him? SpaceX wanted to finish Commercial Crew quickly, this is not cost-plus, they don't get paid until they start delivering.

And how has he shielded SpaceX for years? I don't see any evidence of that.

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #59 on: 02/19/2020 03:38 am »
That's the price of taking a government job, going out on a limb to defend SpaceX from scrutiny, get reassigned and then magically SpaceX starts hitting their timeline again.

It's not only improper for Gerstenmaier to go work for SpaceX, it's abundantly clear that he has been actively shielding SpaceX for years and slowing down the start of commercial crew services. It's fair to assume that his job at SpaceX will involve doing the same.

Pathological risk reduction.

That’s like Vogon poetry*, QG.
“It gives one terrific insight into whatever it was that the poet had in mind!”
If you explain it very simply I won’t need the Sensory Enhancer to fully appreciate it.

*Thanks to Douglas Adams
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Offline dondar

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #60 on: 02/19/2020 12:28 pm »
Quote
Things might change if Gerstenmaier bestows his blessing on the SpaceX Starship. If the Space Launch System runs into some of the same problems that other Boeing vehicles, such as the Starliner and the 737-Max have, then with any luck, the SpaceX Starship will be available as a Plan B. Gerstenmaier could serve an invaluable role in selling the Starship, not only to NASA, but to other customers. The United States is not the only country with lunar aspirations. One can imagine the European Space Agency or perhaps the Gulf Arab States leasing a Starship to send an expedition to the lunar surface.


Gerstenmaier could serve as the ultimate rainmaker for SpaceX. A rainmaker is usually a senior partner at a law firm whose role is to drum up business by virtue of who he or she knows. Bill Gerstenmaier knows a lot of people, many of who may be willing to spend money to obtain the services that SpaceX has to offer.

Interesting that the author thinks SpaceX hired Gerstenmaier for his rolodex.

Also: oof those reader comments.
not rolodex per se. The inside knowledge of what all these names mean and all these people can. Companies pay very serious money for such knowledge.

Offline DBMandrake

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #61 on: 02/19/2020 01:17 pm »
There are very good reasons for SpaceX to hire Gerst totally unrelated to the fact that he formerly presided over an organization giving government money to SpaceX.

But he did preside over an organization giving government money to SpaceX.  I think it's improper for him to later get benefits from SpaceX because of that.

It's like a lawyer with a case before a judge meeting alone with the judge.  There might be perfectly good reasons for that to happen that have nothing to do with the case.  But it's still improper.  It's important to have a clear rule against such things, to secure against the possibility of corruption, even unconscious corruption.

Even if everything with SpaceX and Gerst is innocent, the message it sends to other government employees, intended or not, is corrupting.  It says that if they if SpaceX likes them, they can have a huge personal benefit for themselves later.

Other big government aerospace contractors have been doing this for decades, and it was wrong then, and it's wrong now for it to be happening with SpaceX.

EDIT: Note that I'm not saying this is illegal.  I think it is legal.  I think the laws on such conduct are insufficient.
You might have had a point if he had been hired away (poached) by SpaceX while he was still occupying his former leadership role at NASA, or if he had been planning to retire from NASA anyway and secretly had a job at SpaceX lined up.

However his unexpected demotion and inevitable resignation took everyone by surprise including probably SpaceX. As soon as he officially left his demoted position at the end of the year, of course many companies in the industry are going to approach him, why wouldn't they ?

Elon Musk has said several times that he thinks a lot of Gerstenmaier and I can see him making him an offer to come work at SpaceX, especially when manned flights is the next big Agenda for SpaceX. While his connections are no doubt very useful I think we'll eventually find out that he's in an engineering review role not a lobbying role as he seems to be more an engineer at heart than a manager, which ironically might be why he was replaced at NASA in the first place. (Since engineers aren't always the best managers...)

If you were Gerstenmaier and had decades of manned space flight program experience, had many companies including Boeing and SpaceX making you offers, and thought you had a few more years to contribute before you retired (he's now 65) who would you choose ?

Would you take an offer from a slow, lumbering "old Space" company like Boeing who is doing more of the same (SLS) with constant delays and setbacks or would you take an offer from someone like SpaceX who has shown themselves to be fast moving, innovative and have exciting new projects in the works (Starship) that may ultimately lead to a resurgence of manned space exploration ? I think it's a bit of a no-brainer really.

Sure, they'll put him to work helping with safety assurance on Dragon 2 for now as that is the priority and a good way to ease
 him into the company using something he's very familiar with but if he's not involved in the manned aspects of Starship later down the line I'll be very surprised.
« Last Edit: 02/19/2020 01:20 pm by DBMandrake »

Offline happyflower

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #62 on: 02/19/2020 06:24 pm »
After reading many posts here about Gerst, am I just wrong about my memory of Gerst actually "not" being a SpaceX fan while in NASA? I know everybody says that Gerst protected the two vendor thing for NASA, but my head canon remembers him being against SpaceX not for them. Am I just mis remembering?


Offline Mandella

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #63 on: 02/19/2020 07:50 pm »
After reading many posts here about Gerst, am I just wrong about my memory of Gerst actually "not" being a SpaceX fan while in NASA? I know everybody says that Gerst protected the two vendor thing for NASA, but my head canon remembers him being against SpaceX not for them. Am I just mis remembering?

From my, admittedly fallible memory, it's more that he helped smooth the path for Boeing more than went overtly against SpaceX, although there were some, apparently contested, views that he did want to shut out all the Newspace companies and just go with Boeing initially.

All of the above could also fall into the realm of necessary politics, although many argue that point too.

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #64 on: 02/19/2020 08:06 pm »
After reading many posts here about Gerst, am I just wrong about my memory of Gerst actually "not" being a SpaceX fan while in NASA? I know everybody says that Gerst protected the two vendor thing for NASA, but my head canon remembers him being against SpaceX not for them. Am I just mis remembering?

Mandella has it right
After Boeing’s OFT fiasco a Tweet from Lori Garver reminded people that Gerst wanted only one Commercial Crew vendor and alluded that he wanted that company to be Boeing
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Online abaddon

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #65 on: 02/19/2020 09:24 pm »
After reading many posts here about Gerst, am I just wrong about my memory of Gerst actually "not" being a SpaceX fan while in NASA? I know everybody says that Gerst protected the two vendor thing for NASA, but my head canon remembers him being against SpaceX not for them. Am I just mis remembering?

Mandella has it right
After Boeing’s OFT fiasco a Tweet from Lori Garver reminded people that Gerst wanted only one Commercial Crew vendor and alluded that he wanted that company to be Boeing
Lori clarified that there was "immense pressure" on the selection officer (Gerst) to downselect to one provider.  It's easier for an underling to strongly argue for something that's opposite of what the selection officer is being pressured to do.  The fact remains that Gerst, who did have that responsibility, made the call he did.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #66 on: 02/19/2020 09:28 pm »
Here's a pro-tip for anyone who wants to understand what is happening within a organization:

Ask.

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline dglow

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #67 on: 02/19/2020 11:47 pm »
Here's a pro-tip for anyone who wants to understand what is happening within a organization:

Ask.

Ask many, and cast these queries widely. You'll hear several versions of what's happening.

Offline llanitedave

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #68 on: 02/20/2020 05:19 pm »
So you think it's fine to exclude someone like him from an entire industry, got it.

Yeah... can't agree with that, at all.  Shrug.

That's the price of taking a government job, going out on a limb to defend SpaceX from scrutiny, get reassigned and then magically SpaceX starts hitting their timeline again.

It's not only improper for Gerstenmaier to go work for SpaceX, it's abundantly clear that he has been actively shielding SpaceX for years and slowing down the start of commercial crew services. It's fair to assume that his job at SpaceX will involve doing the same.

Pathological risk reduction.


The price of taking a government job is the lousy pay compared to industry.  The rest of your post is nothing but fallacy.  "Shielding" SpaceX would not be slowing down the start of commercial crew, since that would be contrary to their goal.


Gerstenmaier has not treated SpaceX preferentially to Boeing during his tenure.


As far as being "fair to assume", I've seen little fairness in any of your assumptions to date.
"I've just abducted an alien -- now what?"

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #69 on: 05/13/2020 03:45 pm »
Great news and very well deserved

https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1260577039519711233

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Heard some good news yesterday on Bill Gerstenmaier, NASA's former chief of human spaceflight. He loves it at SpaceX because he's doing real engineering again, outside the Beltway. Sleeves rolled up, diving into it, that sort of thing.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #70 on: 05/13/2020 09:11 pm »
Great news and very well deserved

https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1260577039519711233

Quote
Heard some good news yesterday on Bill Gerstenmaier, NASA's former chief of human spaceflight. He loves it at SpaceX because he's doing real engineering again, outside the Beltway. Sleeves rolled up, diving into it, that sort of thing.

This really is excellent news, both for Gerst and for SpaceX.
DM

Offline DecoLV

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #71 on: 05/31/2020 08:22 pm »
And where was he during all the DM-2 launch? Did anybody offer him a VIP seat? A Meatball branded beer, maybe?

Offline SpaceNerd26

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #72 on: 07/30/2020 06:32 pm »
Does anyone have an update on how Gerst is doing/what he’s working on these days? Is he stationed in Boca or Hawthorne? All support is appreciated.

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #73 on: 07/30/2020 09:41 pm »
Looks like he'll be participating in an e-Town Hall on September 5. Maybe someone can ask him?

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/bill-gerstenmaier-spacex-bruce-banerdt-jpl-and-frank-czopek-gps-tickets-108900217482

RSVP link:

http://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/event?llr=p9tbt6cab&oeidk=a07eh4os7fs2d84684a

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(September 5, 2020) e-Town Hall Meeting with Bill Gerstenmaier, Bruce Banerdt and Frank Czopek

($4.95 each ticket) (No refund within 7 days of the event or after the event)

Funds will be used for STEM activities and student awards/scholarships. For special needs to waive this fees, please contact [email snipped].

September 5th, 2020, 10 AM
Agenda/Schedule (September 5, 2020)
10:05 AM Dr. Chandrashekhar Sonwane (AIAA LA LV Section Chair) (Welcome)
10:10 AM Dr. Dan Dumbacher (AIAA Eexcutive Director)
10:30 AM Dr. Bill Gerstenmaier (SpaceX)
12:00 PM Dr. Bruce Banerdt (Mars InSight)
1:30 PM Frank Czopek (Introduction to GPS and Pre-History of GPS)
4:00 PM Adjourn

International Space Station’s critical role in enabling human exploration beyond low Earth orbit
by
Dr. William H. Gerstenmaier
SpaceX
AIAA Honorary Fellow

Former Associate Administrator for the Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate (NASA HQ)
 
The InSight Mission to Mars
by
JPL Mission Principal Investigator
Dr. Bruce Banerdt
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory
(Landed at Elysium Planitia on November 26, 2018)

Introduction to GPS & Pre-History of GPS

by
Frank Czopek

Quote
[bio snipped]

Station is often recognized for being an engineering marvel, playing a key role in international cooperation, and for having crews continuously on board for almost 20 years. This presentation will focus on the key role that ISS is playing in enabling human exploration beyond low Earth orbit. ISS obviously can enable testing of spacecraft systems that must work for the extended journey’s beyond low Earth orbit. This presentation will discuss many subtle and critical aspects that are not commonly attributed to ISS. It is often stated that the funds spent of ISS would be better spent directly on human exploration beyond low Earth orbit. This presentation will provide an alternate viewpoint and show that ISS today is contributing in ways that could be critical to the future success.
« Last Edit: 07/30/2020 09:50 pm by Twark_Main »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #74 on: 09/08/2020 01:03 pm »
Report on comments made at the town hall:

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Gerstenmaier warns against ending space station program prematurely
by Jeff Foust — September 8, 2020

https://spacenews.com/gerstenmaier-warns-against-ending-space-station-program-prematurely/

Main focus is ISS but this bit on SpaceX:

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He declined to go into specifics about his work at SpaceX, but said there’s less difference between work at the company versus that at NASA than one might expect, at least from a technical standpoint.

“It’s interesting being on both sides,” he said. “The demands of human spaceflight are the same. The precision that we have to do every day to make sure our crews are safe, make sure the hardware works, are absolutely the same. There’s no forgiveness for mistakes or being lazy or not sharing. You have to be 100% focused. That’s what we’re working on at SpaceX: how do we transition and get ready to really establish a transportation system that normal people would be willing to use.”

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #75 on: 06/14/2022 04:30 pm »
https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/space/spacex-building-airline-type-flight-ops-launch

twitter.com/Yrouel86/status/1535246122419204096

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Really awesome read. It seems Gerstenmaier is having the time of his life working at SpaceX compared to how limited he was before

https://twitter.com/Lori_Garver/status/1535321121171689472

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I find this fascinating, since Gerst led human spaceflight at NASA for many years & could have championed changes to the program & procurement to incentivize the right behaviors much earlier. Glad he eventually supported & is now reaping the rewards.

twitter.com/Free_Space/status/1536382409167581184

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Lori: I'm curious what you think Gerst could have done as NASA AA --with the Congress & OMB of the day--that would have positioned NASA to be in a better position than it is today, which in my 34-yrs of agency coverage,  is pretty darn strong, compared to previous decades.

https://twitter.com/Lori_Garver/status/1536744651671085056

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NASA establishment (including Gerst), didn't want the commercial crew program, preferred Ares/Orion & channeled their views to the Hill. As one of the most respected NASA voices, if he'd supported the Admin plan, others would have followed. More in the book on the details :)

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #76 on: 11/01/2022 01:11 pm »
From SpaceX webcast few minutes ago:

Good spot!

https://twitter.com/nasawatch/status/1587444094304935936

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Hey look - its Gerst - with a headset!  #SpaceX #FalconHeavy #USSF44

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX has hired former NASA official William Gerstenmaier
« Reply #77 on: 01/30/2023 03:27 pm »
https://twitter.com/esherifftv/status/1620075692695367681

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My first official SpaceX interview on my Ellie in Space channel. I chatted with longtime NASA veteran William Gerstenmaier who now works at #spacex
@aiaa #AIAASciTech
FULL INTERVIEW HERE:



Edit to add: nice interview, particularly liked discussion of culture, analogies with first shuttle flight etc. Also so nice to see that Gerst obviously loves his job at SpaceX!
« Last Edit: 01/30/2023 03:42 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

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