Starlink Internet Connection equipment - Home/Office user

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

Before people get too far into analyzing that table of numbers, you should be aware that those numbers were from the first two test satellites, not the operational satellites.

Yes.
I realize that but it should be very close to the actual frequencies divisions used on the V.9 and V1.0 sats. What it does not show is how many spots for a V1.0 sat. The spot field shape: x spots by Y rectangular, or a elliptical, or square, or a circle spot layout. This can have significant effect of how often in units of time min/max values a handoff from one sat to another occurs as well as from one spot to another on the same sat.

The other item that is a concern is that the modulation is listed as 64QAM which is the encoding of 6 bits/SYM per Hz of frequency. It is possible the the modulation could have been increased to 256QAM (8 bits/SYM). Which would result in 5 or 6 downlink frequency channels of ~1Gbps vs the 4 at 64QAM.

So there is an assumption that the modulation is still at 64QAM.
That the power used per channel on the sat is 2.8W. NOTE because of what was discovered in the link margins this could have increased or decreased easily by 1/2 or 2X (+-6db). Also what is not known for determining to V1.0 transmitter power for a channel is the spot diameter used by V1.0 relative to the spot diameter of the A/B sat.

If power is about right. And that the power of 2.8W/channel is for the same size spot on the V1.0 as the A/B. This is such that for a 1Tbps sat v1.0 the transmitters would be consuming for Ku 1.4kw and again for Ka the same another 1.4kw. But it is likely that the power per spot channel being a lot smaller in diameter to have a lot lower power level. But these needed aggregate power levels only presumes that all channels are fully engaged in max continuous data and not the occasional status packet plus a few data packets.

There is a lot we do not know. The information we do know bounds the items we do not know but as you pointed out it is easy to make unknown assumptions without realizing.

It also begs the question since we do not know actual power usages for systems/subsystems and the battery/solar array power capabilities. That the sat is actually capable of throughput of 1Tbps except in occasional bursts. Such as transition over the occasional location with a heavy UT density and usage.

[AbuSimbel]

I really don’t see how this could be ‘the simplest out-of-box experience imaginable’ (as stated by Steve Jurvetson and Elon) if you have to install the antenna on the roof and route the cables inside your house...

Usually they aren’t misleading in setting expectations for upcoming products.

[Poseidon]

I really don’t see how this could be ‘the simplest out-of-box experience imaginable’ (as stated by Steve Jurvetson and Elon) if you have to install the antenna on the roof and route the cables inside your house...

Usually they aren’t misleading in setting expectations for upcoming products.

I think what they wanted to say is that compared to TV sat dishes, you don’t need to do a precise alignment of the antenna that requires special tools and experienced installer.

It’s plug & play because you only need to plug the ethernet cable in the WAN port of a router (and add a PoE injector, if the router doesn’t provide power). Probably no SIM card either.

[AbuSimbel]

I really don’t see how this could be ‘the simplest out-of-box experience imaginable’ (as stated by Steve Jurvetson and Elon) if you have to install the antenna on the roof and route the cables inside your house...

Usually they aren’t misleading in setting expectations for upcoming products.

I think what they wanted to say is that compared to TV sat dishes, you don’t need to do a precise alignment of the antenna that requires special tools and experienced installer.

It’s plug & play because you only need to plug the ethernet cable in the WAN port of a router (and add a PoE injector, if the router doesn’t provide power). Probably no SIM card either.

That’s not exactly what I would describe as ‘just two steps: plug it it and point at the sky, in either order’.

I mean, when installing a TV sat dish the alignment isn’t even the most difficult step: you have to properly fasten it to the roof, drill holes and insulate them, route the cables... that’s what actually prompts a lot of people to pay a professional to do the job. If you go through the hassle of placing the dish yourself then you may as well do the alignment with a crappy  10$ Sat-Finder bought off amazon.

If you have to install it on the roof than many people would hire a professional installer, even if the antenna is self-aligning, and for sure it wouldn’t be an ‘out-of-box’ experience.

[ChrisWilson68]

I really don’t see how this could be ‘the simplest out-of-box experience imaginable’ (as stated by Steve Jurvetson and Elon) if you have to install the antenna on the roof and route the cables inside your house...

Usually they aren’t misleading in setting expectations for upcoming products.

I think what they wanted to say is that compared to TV sat dishes, you don’t need to do a precise alignment of the antenna that requires special tools and experienced installer.

It’s plug & play because you only need to plug the ethernet cable in the WAN port of a router (and add a PoE injector, if the router doesn’t provide power)

To me, there's an enormous gulf between "you don't need to do a precise alignment of the antenna, but you still need to bolt it to the roof of your house, drill a hole in your outside wall, run a cable through your wall, drill another hole from the inside where your router is, and plug it in" and "installation is two steps, point at sky and plug it into the socket".  Too big a gulf for me to buy that Musk would say the latter when the former is the truth.

There's also the fact that Musk said, in the same tweet, "No training required."  How could putting an antenna on the roof and running a cable from inside the house to the antenna on the roof be a "no training required" kind of operation?

When I hear the term "plug in socket" without any other qualification to me that means a wall socket that provides electricity, not an ethernet socket with power-over-ethernet.  I don't have a router with power over ethernet.  I don't think most other people do either.  I don't think most people even know whether their router has power over ethernet.

I also think most people these days have a box from their ISP that includes a wireless router.  I don't think most people own their own routers.  So when they go to replace their existing service with Starlink, they won't have a router to plug into at all.  People who don't currently have internet at all (the key early target market of Starlink) won't own a router at all.

So if Starlink requires people to already own a router with power over ethernet, they're going to have a lot of customers who are confused and angry on day one.  Does that sound like Elon Musk to you?  Not to me.

[Poseidon]

I agree partially.
You could also install it in the backyard/garden on a small pole, not necessarily on a roof.
About the PoE/router, they will probably provide a PoE injector, nothing complicated, or even provide a router like some ISPs do.
From the beginning I was a little bit skeptical about the simplicity they advertise and the potential number of customers.
I installed an outdoor LTE antenna on my roof 2 years ago, and yeah, it wasn't an easy task.

Wait and see.

[ChrisWilson68]

About the PoE/router, they will probably provide a PoE injector, nothing complicated, or even provide a router like some ISPs do.

Sure, but then installation isn't two steps, as Musk claimed.

[woods170]

Quite frankly I don't understand what all the fuss is all about.

When Elon tweeted "point at sky and plug cable in socket" he was entirely correct.

"Point at sky" quite literally means that: point at the sky. He didn't tweet "point at ceiling". People should have been able to tell from Elon's original tweet that this thing is meant to be installed OUTdoors.

The other part is "plug cable in socket". Well, again he is correct. Out of the "UFO-on-stick" comes ONE cable. Clearly that cable must be plugged in some sort of socket. Exactly WHAT kind of socket he did not specify in his tweet. And people also didn't bother to ask for clarification.

Every other detail is up for speculation. But based on that single tweet it is possible do some educated guessing as to how the internet connection comes INdoors.  Hi-power WiFi and Powerline Ethernet are just two possibilities that come to mind.

[AbuSimbel]

Well we’re discussing the reality of the installation here, not semantics. If you promise a two steps installation people (me included) will expect just that.
Going by your logic they could also sell F9s to the public: just two steps, pointy end up and launch 

Not saying it would be a deal breaker if it required rooftop installation, just that they could be more upfront about it, as they are in making clear that the constellation will be aimed at rural areas initially.

[ChrisWilson68]

"Point at sky" quite literally means that: point at the sky. He didn't tweet "point at ceiling". People should have been able to tell from Elon's original tweet that this thing is meant to be installed OUTdoors.

To me, "point at sky" is equally valid indoors or outdoors.  In a yoga class indoors, for example, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear the instructor say "Point your left leg up toward the sky."  I wouldn't even notice it.  The direction of the sky is up to me.  It is no more surprising to me to hear it used as a direction indoors than outdoors.

Same goes with "the ground".  If someone talks about someone with their eyes pointed at the ground, I know what they mean whether I'm indoors or out.  I don't notice it at all.  I don't think to myself, "that's weird, he can't have his eyes toward the ground because there's a floor between us and the ground.

I suspect I'm not the only one.  If Musk is one of the people, like me, for whom the sky is a valid direction indoors, your point is invalid.

I personally find a bigger disconnect between the two-step description and having to mount a device on a roof, cut a whole in the wall of your house, and run a cable from outdoors to indoors than the disconnect between talking about the sky as a direction and being indoors.  I suspect I'm not alone there.

[spacenut]

Most of the people Starlink will be selling to will be in rural areas.  I don't see it as a problem.  They have two choices, roof or yard or garden (they are in the country).  Now, to me it could connect directly into the computer, into a router, or into a modem.  Some people have all of them, but you at least have to have a computer.  Does it have to have a separate power source? or can it use the power from the computer, router, or modem. 

I don't think people will have a huge problem as most people who want high speed internet already have a satellite dish in the rural areas, and it is definitely not high speed.  So, they already have a modem or a router.  It would just replace the satellite internet. 

Starlink are LEO satellites, so they are constantly moving.  I would think the antenna (UFO on a stick) would just point vertical and would connect with the nearest constantly moving satellite and jump from satellite to satellite as they are constantly moving. 

I have a stepson who is only about 5 miles outside a nearby town.  He is using a very slow satellite service and he shopped around for the fastest service offered.  TV cable is only about 1,000 yards away, but they said they need at least 15 customers down his dirt road in order to extend the cable.  There are only about 5 potential customers living down this road.  He had 10 acres so you see the approximate size of the various properties, and his is about the smallest piece of property.  He also has a metal roof on his house and it is two story, so he wouldn't want to climb a latter to install it.  His satellite dish is in his back yard, probably where he would place his Starlink satellite as soon as it becomes available.

[ChrisWilson68]

Most of the people Starlink will be selling to will be in rural areas.  I don't see it as a problem.  They have two choices, roof or yard or garden (they are in the country).  Now, to me it could connect directly into the computer, into a router, or into a modem.  Some people have all of them, but you at least have to have a computer.  Does it have to have a separate power source? or can it use the power from the computer, router, or modem. 

I don't think people will have a huge problem as most people who want high speed internet already have a satellite dish in the rural areas, and it is definitely not high speed.  So, they already have a modem or a router.  It would just replace the satellite internet. 

Starlink are LEO satellites, so they are constantly moving.  I would think the antenna (UFO on a stick) would just point vertical and would connect with the nearest constantly moving satellite and jump from satellite to satellite as they are constantly moving. 

I have a stepson who is only about 5 miles outside a nearby town.  He is using a very slow satellite service and he shopped around for the fastest service offered.  TV cable is only about 1,000 yards away, but they said they need at least 15 customers down his dirt road in order to extend the cable.  There are only about 5 potential customers living down this road.  He had 10 acres so you see the approximate size of the various properties, and his is about the smallest piece of property.  He also has a metal roof on his house and it is two story, so he wouldn't want to climb a latter to install it.  His satellite dish is in his back yard, probably where he would place his Starlink satellite as soon as it becomes available.

The issue isn't whether people will be willing to go with a service that requires an outdoor antenna to be installed.  Clearly, satellite TV has shown millions of people will.

The issue is that this is not consistent with Musk's tweet.  If what you're saying is true, Musk's tweet is wildly inaccurate.  It's inaccurate in a way that can't possibly be accidental.  And it's inaccurate in a way that will become public and very easily demonstrated at the very start of the rollout of the Beta test program.

So why would Musk tweet such an inaccurate thing?  It's just asking for a huge amount of very negative publicity, with no gain.  And it's out of character with anything else Musk has tweeted.  The things that he's tweeted that have been inaccurate all seem to have been things that he honestly believed at the time, even if they are completely wrong and bad for him.

EDIT: By the way, I don't know why you're listing modem as something the Starlink terminal could plug into.  That's not how modems work.

[envy887]

Most of the people Starlink will be selling to will be in rural areas.  I don't see it as a problem.  They have two choices, roof or yard or garden (they are in the country).  Now, to me it could connect directly into the computer, into a router, or into a modem.  Some people have all of them, but you at least have to have a computer.  Does it have to have a separate power source? or can it use the power from the computer, router, or modem. 

I don't think people will have a huge problem as most people who want high speed internet already have a satellite dish in the rural areas, and it is definitely not high speed.  So, they already have a modem or a router.  It would just replace the satellite internet. 

Starlink are LEO satellites, so they are constantly moving.  I would think the antenna (UFO on a stick) would just point vertical and would connect with the nearest constantly moving satellite and jump from satellite to satellite as they are constantly moving. 

I have a stepson who is only about 5 miles outside a nearby town.  He is using a very slow satellite service and he shopped around for the fastest service offered.  TV cable is only about 1,000 yards away, but they said they need at least 15 customers down his dirt road in order to extend the cable.  There are only about 5 potential customers living down this road.  He had 10 acres so you see the approximate size of the various properties, and his is about the smallest piece of property.  He also has a metal roof on his house and it is two story, so he wouldn't want to climb a latter to install it.  His satellite dish is in his back yard, probably where he would place his Starlink satellite as soon as it becomes available.

The issue isn't whether people will be willing to go with a service that requires an outdoor antenna to be installed.  Clearly, satellite TV has shown millions of people will.

The issue is that this is not consistent with Musk's tweet.  If what you're saying is true, Musk's tweet is wildly inaccurate.  It's inaccurate in a way that can't possibly be accidental.  And it's inaccurate in a way that will become public and very easily demonstrated at the very start of the rollout of the Beta test program.

So why would Musk tweet such an inaccurate thing?  It's just asking for a huge amount of very negative publicity, with no gain.  And it's out of character with anything else Musk has tweeted.  The things that he's tweeted that have been inaccurate all seem to have been things that he honestly believed at the time, even if they are completely wrong and bad for him.

EDIT: By the way, I don't know why you're listing modem as something the Starlink terminal could plug into.  That's not how modems work.

"it could connect directly into the computer, [or] into a router" is not inconsistent with Musk's tweet.

It's entirely possible that the default data transfer mode is a built-in WiFi router, and using it only requires the user to mount the antenna with a view of the sky, and plug it into an electrical socket (and connect their computer to the WiFi network), AND also that there is a alternate method of getting the data inside a building, probably Ethernet, for people that don't want to use WiFi directly off the terminal.

My interpretation of Musk's and especially Jurvetson's tweets are exactly that.

[RedLineTrain]

Two points for this overwrought discussion.

(1) Power over Ethernet is max 100 meters.

(2) At quantity, technologies like MOCA, DECA (DirecTV's version of MOCA), Powerline, and mesh Wifi are reliable, available to be incorporated into your products or your custom silicon, and dirt cheap.

[JBF]

Two points for this overwrought discussion.

(1) Power over Ethernet is max 100 meters.

(2) At quantity, technologies like MOCA, DECA (DirecTV's version of MOCA), Powerline, and mesh Wifi are reliable, available to be incorporated into your products or your custom silicon, and dirt cheap.

POE extenders are now available, but they have to draw some power to function. The big question is how much does the dish take to operate.

[Mandella]

In regards to the "no special training" required tweet, it should be remembered that regular satellite internet dishes *must* be installed by a licensed professional by law. No special training just means that it *can* be installed by a willing amateur without legal consequences.

I am curious how the "one cable for all" design is going to work out. As many here I can't imagine the device will ship with only WiFi as a means to connect to it, so POE seems like the reasonable thing to expect.

[Kansan52]

This touches on some old expertise. We used to sell and install C band (big dish) and Direct TV (small dish/direct band). Even took the class for my SBCA DSS (direct satellite system/direct band) installer license (that was to be required and then wasn't).

Power can travel up the coaxial wire(coax) to supply the electronics. Signal comes back down the same coax. Both the C band and direct band used this power/signal technique for the signal electronics.

Both systems required positioning but that could be done by a skilled DIYer. The current direct band systems are positioned to receive signal from multiple satellites. That is why the dish is a wider oval that the rounder signal satellite dish units.

Speculation mode on One coax to the receiver that supplies power to the receiving systems. Signal comes back and is processed inside. And just like the satellite TV, this will never be an indoor receiving system. Speculation mode off

You could take a square piece of paper and do a triangular fold for a 45 degree angle and do a site survey here. A crude but usable survey method. It is amazing what you can 'see' over at 45 degrees. My guess is restricted line of sight to the sky reduces bandwidth. However, if the system only 'looks' at satellite in a tight area above the receiver, then line of site may be close to straight up and not the entire sky.

[Poseidon]

Speculation mode on One coax to the receiver that supplies power to the receiving systems. Signal comes back and is processed inside. And just like the satellite TV, this will never be an indoor receiving system. Speculation mode off

That would be the worst solution. It would imply unnecessary losses in the coax cable.
The best solution is to convert to a "digital" signal as soon as possible in the chain, to avoid losses.
That's why all 5G mmWave solution we have seen until now are external antennas with integrated modem.

[matthewkantar]

Musk's tweet is is in no way "wildly inaccurate."  Look at the installed dishes in Boca Chica. does it look like they required a pro? set it down on a flat surface where it can see the sky, plug it in, profit.  A couple of screws or a clamp do not require a pro or training of any kind.

[chad1011]

I don't understand why people are picking the tweet apart. Point at sky is pretty self-explanatory. Just make sure the dish has a clear view of the sky. Anyone who has used DirecTv knows that it does not work with the dish indoors or if you point it through too many leaves. Also, who wants a pizza size dish sitting in their house. That is of course unless it is actually pizza. The plugin is also self-explanatory. Plug a single cable into the dish and one end into a router/WiFi access point. If your router does not have POE builtin, use the provided POE injector. I know that is a second and third plugin due to plugging the injector into the wall and the router. Heck, we could count plugging in the router into the wall if you wanted to nitpick it to death. The intent of the tweet was it is simple compared to installing DirecTv or ViaSat terminal.

Edit: Think of it this way. There are only two steps to start a car. First, put the key in. Second, start the car. We say two steps but we all know there is more to it than that like unlocking the car, getting in the car, possibly pushing in the clutch, and don't forget to release key and let it return to the run position. These extra steps are implied in our simplified steps.