Starlink : Markets and Marketing

[Tomness]

https://twitter.com/sawyermerritt/status/1713683028923290079

BREAKING: Qatar Airways has inked an agreement with @SpaceX to make Starlink WiFi in the sky available at no cost to every passenger with speeds up to 350Mbps.

Qatar Airways is now the largest airline to collaborate with Starlink.

The partnership promises to not only to ditch the price tag but boost the download speeds from 10Mbps on QR’s best Super WiFi service to true broadband rates of 350Mbps per passenger or device.

Qatar Airways promises “once the service is active, passengers will be able to enjoy ultra-fast WiFi speeds of up to 350 Megabits per second for gaming, VPN access, sports streaming and more.

https://www.qatarairways.com/press-releases/en-WW/230930-qatar-airways-selects-starlink-to-enhance-in-flight-experience-with-complimentary-high-speed-internet-connectivity

These high profile announcements are exciting, but can anyone estimate the revenue impact of such a deal?

It seems a pity to me that due to the low financial threshold of domestic users, Starlink has a very low benchmark cost of say $100/ month. This probably makes it difficult to justify a ramp up to say $1M per plane, despite the immense value Starlink adds to airline passengers. Or is such a ramp up perhaps feasible?

Whatever Viasat or Iridium were charging, Starlink should be able to charge an order of magnitude more, given the order of magnitude better latency and bandwidth it offers.

Any estimates?

Still paying $150 for Mobile for 50 MB/s Down & 15 MB/s up... so on par for Viasat just better latency and data caps... easier to carry?

[M.E.T.]

https://twitter.com/sawyermerritt/status/1713683028923290079

BREAKING: Qatar Airways has inked an agreement with @SpaceX to make Starlink WiFi in the sky available at no cost to every passenger with speeds up to 350Mbps.

Qatar Airways is now the largest airline to collaborate with Starlink.

The partnership promises to not only to ditch the price tag but boost the download speeds from 10Mbps on QR’s best Super WiFi service to true broadband rates of 350Mbps per passenger or device.

Qatar Airways promises “once the service is active, passengers will be able to enjoy ultra-fast WiFi speeds of up to 350 Megabits per second for gaming, VPN access, sports streaming and more.

https://www.qatarairways.com/press-releases/en-WW/230930-qatar-airways-selects-starlink-to-enhance-in-flight-experience-with-complimentary-high-speed-internet-connectivity

These high profile announcements are exciting, but can anyone estimate the revenue impact of such a deal?

It seems a pity to me that due to the low financial threshold of domestic users, Starlink has a very low benchmark cost of say $100/ month. This probably makes it difficult to justify a ramp up to say $1M per plane, despite the immense value Starlink adds to airline passengers. Or is such a ramp up perhaps feasible?

Whatever Viasat or Iridium were charging, Starlink should be able to charge an order of magnitude more, given the order of magnitude better latency and bandwidth it offers.

Any estimates?

Still paying $150 for Mobile for 50 MB/s Down & 15 MB/s up... so on par for Viasat just better latency and data caps... easier to carry?

I might be misunderstanding you. I’m talking about what Starlink can charge to the Airline.

This cost should be carried by the airline, with perhaps a small on charge to the passengers. But I reckon the value add to the airline is easily worth $1M per plane per year. Or maybe even more.

Quick googling shows that Qatar has 208 passenger planes and carries 37M passengers per year. So at $1M per plane, thats $208M per year. That’s not even $6 per passenger ticket for full Starlink value.

Heck, you could go 5 times that cost, and people wouldn’t care. $30 extra on an international airline ticket is nothing for Starlink value.

[LouScheffer]

Heck, you could go 5 times that cost, and people wouldn’t care. $30 extra on an international airline ticket is nothing for Starlink value.

This is not clear.  Internet now typically costs very roughly $30 on an international flight, and only a fraction of customers buy it.  Starlink will be higher quality, but not enough to justify a $30 surcharge for everyone.

[DanClemmensen]

Heck, you could go 5 times that cost, and people wouldn’t care. $30 extra on an international airline ticket is nothing for Starlink value.

This is not clear.  Internet now typically costs very roughly $30 on an international flight, and only a fraction of customers buy it.  Starlink will be higher quality, but not enough to justify a $30 surcharge for everyone.

If it's marketed as "free WIFI", then the customers do not see a separate surcharge. It affects the ticket price and Qatar must compete with other airlines. This would be a real cost to Qatar of $6/seat, not $30/seat, and is unlikely to change a customer's choice of airlines.

The existing airline Internet is mostly GEO, with very limited aggregate BW per plane. It cannot handle all of the passengers using it at the same time, so they need to charge enough to discourage most of the passengers.

[RedLineTrain]

Starlink is being adopted very quickly throughout the maritime market due primarily to its improvement of sailor morale.  It must have been pretty dire out there.  The big players are eager to advertise that they are adopting it fleet-wide, like the below article in the marine trade press for Tokyo-Mitsui O.S.K. Lines.  Those kind of customers are great to have!

So far it seems like the airlines are somewhat less eager to adopt Starlink.  It could be simply that Starlink doesn't have the aircraft certifications yet.

Regardless, these are not huge markets.  But it's interesting to follow.

https://www.marineinsight.com/shipping-news/mol-aims-for-full-scale-introduction-of-starlink-satellite-communication-targeting-more-than-200-ocean-going-vessels/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=mol-aims-for-full-scale-introduction-of-starlink-satellite-communication-targeting-more-than-200-ocean-going-vessels

[DanClemmensen]

Starlink is being adopted very quickly throughout the maritime market due primarily to its improvement of sailor morale.  It must have been pretty dire out there.  The big players are eager to advertise that they are adopting it fleet-wide, like the below article in the marine trade press for Tokyo-Mitsui O.S.K. Lines.  Those kind of customers are great to have!

So far it seems like the airlines are somewhat less eager to adopt Starlink.  It could be simply that Starlink doesn't have the aircraft certifications yet.

Regardless, these are not huge markets.  But it's interesting to follow.

https://www.marineinsight.com/shipping-news/mol-aims-for-full-scale-introduction-of-starlink-satellite-communication-targeting-more-than-200-ocean-going-vessels/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=mol-aims-for-full-scale-introduction-of-starlink-satellite-communication-targeting-more-than-200-ocean-going-vessels

When we first started putting GEO terminals on container ships (for me, in 2004), the cost was completely justified by by the real-time remote monitoring of the ship's engine. These were the largest Diesel engines in the world. The secondary use was operational communications with the command crew, mostly e-mail, for admin, late port changes, and weather reports. Crew moral was tertiary, but was really appreciated. E-mail for families, mostly. It makes a big difference.

Starlink is gross overkill for the operational stuff. The operational stuff  still justifies the cost, but now, the unused bandwidth available for crew morale is so high that they can do all the Internet stuff they want to, including voice calls to family and even video calls to family.

[RedLineTrain]

When we first started putting GEO terminals on container ships (for me, in 2004), the cost was completely justified by by the real-time remote monitoring of the ship's engine. These were the largest Diesel engines in the world. The secondary use was operational communications with the command crew, mostly e-mail, for admin, late port changes, and weather reports. Crew moral was tertiary, but was really appreciated. E-mail for families, mostly. It makes a big difference.

Starlink is gross overkill for the operational stuff. The operational stuff  still justifies the cost, but now, the unused bandwidth available for crew morale is so high that they can do all the Internet stuff they want to, including voice calls to family and even video calls to family.

Thanks for a brief overview of the history.  My expectation is that they will somehow find plenty of operational uses for the bandwidth.

[JayWee]

Regulatory question:
Does an airplane flying over a country need a license for starlink from that country? (and is it different from GTO sats?)
For example, Doha to Tokyo flies over Iran, Pakistan and China.

[Zed_Noir]

Regulatory question:
Does an airplane flying over a country need a license for starlink from that country? (and is it different from GTO sats?)
For example, Doha to Tokyo flies over Iran, Pakistan and China.

Since the Starlink terminal is on the plane and not directly re-broadcasting to the ground. Think the regulatory issues are deal with by the country where the plane operator is registered.

[Asteroza]

When we first started putting GEO terminals on container ships (for me, in 2004), the cost was completely justified by by the real-time remote monitoring of the ship's engine. These were the largest Diesel engines in the world. The secondary use was operational communications with the command crew, mostly e-mail, for admin, late port changes, and weather reports. Crew moral was tertiary, but was really appreciated. E-mail for families, mostly. It makes a big difference.

Starlink is gross overkill for the operational stuff. The operational stuff  still justifies the cost, but now, the unused bandwidth available for crew morale is so high that they can do all the Internet stuff they want to, including voice calls to family and even video calls to family.

Thanks for a brief overview of the history.  My expectation is that they will somehow find plenty of operational uses for the bandwidth.

The need for wifi repeaters might be a problem, but being able to facetime a support team while examining a problem in realtime is nothing to laugh at. The end goal of crewmen being able to don an AR headset for maintenance work and be live guided may be attractive in some scenarios (with the attendant risk of allowing less-than-qualified seamen working certain maintenance tasks).  How you are going to string up the wifi repeaters is going to be an interesting exercise though (PoE to LED light sockets perhaps?).  With remote support, does that potentially allow single man on watch scenarios while a professional support team in shifts at a call center on shore supports watch activities become feasible?

For all electric vessels, the long term hope for remote operation/monitoring of autonomous cargo vessels is within reach.

[DanClemmensen]

When we first started putting GEO terminals on container ships (for me, in 2004), the cost was completely justified by by the real-time remote monitoring of the ship's engine. These were the largest Diesel engines in the world. The secondary use was operational communications with the command crew, mostly e-mail, for admin, late port changes, and weather reports. Crew moral was tertiary, but was really appreciated. E-mail for families, mostly. It makes a big difference.

Starlink is gross overkill for the operational stuff. The operational stuff  still justifies the cost, but now, the unused bandwidth available for crew morale is so high that they can do all the Internet stuff they want to, including voice calls to family and even video calls to family.

Thanks for a brief overview of the history.  My expectation is that they will somehow find plenty of operational uses for the bandwidth.

The need for wifi repeaters might be a problem, but being able to facetime a support team while examining a problem in realtime is nothing to laugh at. The end goal of crewmen being able to don an AR headset for maintenance work and be live guided may be attractive in some scenarios (with the attendant risk of allowing less-than-qualified seamen working certain maintenance tasks).  How you are going to string up the wifi repeaters is going to be an interesting exercise though (PoE to LED light sockets perhaps?).  With remote support, does that potentially allow single man on watch scenarios while a professional support team in shifts at a call center on shore supports watch activities become feasible?

For all electric vessels, the long term hope for remote operation/monitoring of autonomous cargo vessels is within reach.

On the ship I did the test on, the engine crew was highly qualified. More generally, commercial shipping, with ships with huge engines, has been functioning for well over 150 years, and for most of that time had no real-time communications with shore experts. The real-time data was used on this cruise to optimize engine performance. The ship consumed 50,000 gallons of bunker fuel per day, so even a small optimization saved some serious money.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/starlink/status/1719581885200998485

Starlink’s high-speed internet is now available in the country of Georgia 🛰️🇬🇪 → starlink.com/map

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/starlink/status/1720438167944499638

Starlink’s high-speed internet is now available in Benin 🛰️🇧🇯→ starlink.com/map

[RedLineTrain]

An interesting article about Starlink in Brazil, mostly the Amazon.  The article quotes Brazilian August subscriber figures of 110,000.

There's also a lot of leftwing anti-billionaire and anti-American sentiment in the article, as is common in the Brazilian press.  That said, it covers the great benefits of the service compared to what came before.  That is quite a bit more positive than most articles.

Starlink: 'Elon Musk's internet' brings euphoria and fear to the Amazon

https://sumauma.com/en/starlink-a-internet-de-elon-musk-leva-euforia-e-medo-para-a-amazonia/

[RedLineTrain]

Echostar's Hughes service is being impacted by Starlink.

EchoStar Reports Q3 Losses with Jupiter 3 Service Launch, Dish Network Merger on the Horizon

Satellite operator EchoStar, parent company of Hughes Network Systems, reported a tough 2023 fiscal third quarter (Q3), which included a 17% year-over-year decrease in consolidated revenue and a loss of 165,000 Hughes broadband subscribers.

Hughes ended the quarter with approximately 1,063,000 broadband subscribers. The company said it is being impacted by increased competition and capacity limitations, especially in the United States. In Central and South America, Hughes’ subscriber levels were tempered by what the company described as a re-focus on “more profitable consumer subscribers and by our allocation of capacity to enterprise opportunities.”

https://www.satellitetoday.com/business/2023/11/06/echostar-reports-q3-losses-with-jupiter-3-service-launch-dish-network-merger-on-the-horizon/

[RedLineTrain]

It appears that Starlink is trying to get licenses in a few of the challenging countries by first hooking up rural schools as test cases.  They appear to be doing it in Mongolia and now Kazakhstan.  A month-old pilot project in Kazakhstan with 10 schools is being expanded to 2,000 schools.

It's pretty amazing that Kazakhstan is willing to work with Starlink, given its history and present circumstances.

https://astanatimes.com/2023/11/kazakhstan-introduces-spacex-starlink-internet-accelerates-5g-regionally/

[M.E.T.]

It appears that Starlink is trying to get licenses in a few of the challenging countries by first hooking up rural schools as test cases.  They appear to be doing it in Mongolia and now Kazakhstan.  A month-old pilot project in Kazakhstan with 10 schools is being expanded to 2,000 schools.

It's pretty amazing that Kazakhstan is willing to work with Starlink, given its history and present circumstances.

https://astanatimes.com/2023/11/kazakhstan-introduces-spacex-starlink-internet-accelerates-5g-regionally/

Untapped parts of the globe are basically free money potential for Starlink. This is the equivalent to “dead air” for a TV or Radio station. The sats are already there, just not being used as they pass over the large parts of the continental map where Starlink is barred from operating. This should indeed be a high priority for SpaceX.

[M.E.T.]

Echostar's Hughes service is being impacted by Starlink.

EchoStar Reports Q3 Losses with Jupiter 3 Service Launch, Dish Network Merger on the Horizon

Satellite operator EchoStar, parent company of Hughes Network Systems, reported a tough 2023 fiscal third quarter (Q3), which included a 17% year-over-year decrease in consolidated revenue and a loss of 165,000 Hughes broadband subscribers.

Hughes ended the quarter with approximately 1,063,000 broadband subscribers. The company said it is being impacted by increased competition and capacity limitations, especially in the United States. In Central and South America, Hughes’ subscriber levels were tempered by what the company described as a re-focus on “more profitable consumer subscribers and by our allocation of capacity to enterprise opportunities.”

https://www.satellitetoday.com/business/2023/11/06/echostar-reports-q3-losses-with-jupiter-3-service-launch-dish-network-merger-on-the-horizon/

How are these guys still in business at all? What can they offer that Starlink cannot do better and cheaper?

[Mandella]

Echostar's Hughes service is being impacted by Starlink.

EchoStar Reports Q3 Losses with Jupiter 3 Service Launch, Dish Network Merger on the Horizon

Satellite operator EchoStar, parent company of Hughes Network Systems, reported a tough 2023 fiscal third quarter (Q3), which included a 17% year-over-year decrease in consolidated revenue and a loss of 165,000 Hughes broadband subscribers.

Hughes ended the quarter with approximately 1,063,000 broadband subscribers. The company said it is being impacted by increased competition and capacity limitations, especially in the United States. In Central and South America, Hughes’ subscriber levels were tempered by what the company described as a re-focus on “more profitable consumer subscribers and by our allocation of capacity to enterprise opportunities.”

https://www.satellitetoday.com/business/2023/11/06/echostar-reports-q3-losses-with-jupiter-3-service-launch-dish-network-merger-on-the-horizon/

How are these guys still in business at all? What can they offer that Starlink cannot do better and cheaper?

Not much, but there are some things.

IIRC Hughes does have cheaper price tiers than Starlink for those willing to accept the very, very restricted bandwidth caps. It's also usable for locations that have restricted sight lines to the north.

Other than that sheer inertia. Most of the residences along my country road already have regular dishes for Hughes or Viasat and since Starlink really doesn't advertise heavily they don't even know what they are missing.

It's really hard to imagine that that is going to be enough folks to keep the lights on though.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/goaero/status/1722648111712198879

A new era of Aero begins today with the introduction of in-flight Wi-Fi, powered by @Starlink. Easy to join and completely complimentary, guests on all flights can now browse and stream at speeds that surpass commercial airlines and private jets.

Learn more at aero.com/the-experience