Starlink : Markets and Marketing

[Lars-J]

First deal with a 'real' airline - Hawaiian:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/25/spacex-signs-hawaiian-airlines-for-free-starlink-wi-fi-on-flights.html

https://twitter.com/lesliejosephs/status/1518549134139080704

[DanClemmensen]

First deal with a 'real' airline - Hawaiian:

They may get service for inter-island flights right away, but they aren't going to get service on the "long trips" until Starlink has ISL.

[abaddon]

The article notes that intraisland flights are excluded from the deal and that Hawaiian Airlines wanted to wait for high-quality connectivity over the pacific.

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

First deal with a 'real' airline - Hawaiian:

They may get service for inter-island flights right away, but they aren't going to get service on the "long trips" until Starlink has ISL.

There is already 650 Starlink sats on orbit with ISL. Some 350 are fully operational and with every month about 150 more become fully operational.

By the time a terminal get installed on the aircraft full ocean coverage will be assured. In 6 months from now there should be about 1250 ISL sats operational. And still increasing.

[Lars-J]

First deal with a 'real' airline - Hawaiian:

They may get service for inter-island flights right away, but they aren't going to get service on the "long trips" until Starlink has ISL.

Nothing in the article suggests that this is available *now*… it will take time to certify the hardware and equip the aircraft with it. They might not start offering service until next year, by which time there should be better coverage.

[Robotbeat]

They said not until 2023. So there will be ISLs operational.

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

They said not until 2023. So there will be ISLs operational.

Then likely as many as 1,500+ of them in operation. About equal to the number of those that are not ISL previously deployed.

[su27k]

https://twitter.com/fedorovmykhailo/status/1521115986711175168

Rough data on Starlink's usage: around 150K active users per day. This is crucial support for Ukraine's infrastructure and restoring the destroyed territories. Ukraine will stay connected no matter what.

[su27k]

Just 2% of Starlink users live outside of the West, data suggests

Last year, Sarfaraz Hassan, the chief technology officer at an adventure tourism startup in India’s northeastern Assam state, signed up to receive a Starlink unit from SpaceX. Hassan thought Elon Musk’s satellite internet service could help his company, Encamp, entice digital nomads to work from the rugged foothills of the eastern Himalayas, where fewer than 40% of people have access to broadband. Then, in early January, Starlink announced that preorders in India were being refunded until the company received license to operate in the country. After months of waiting, Hassan recently got his $99 deposit (about 7,500 rupees) back.

Hassan is one of the half a million people worldwide who have signed up to receive Elon Musk’s Starlink service but are still waiting for access. In India, where Starlink was supposed to arrive this month, SpaceX had planned to deploy 200,000 dishes across the country by the end of this year. Instead, the company has had to refund its waiting list at the direction of the Indian government, leaving thousands waiting for connectivity. (The Indian telecomms regulator had warned the public late last year not to pay for equipment before the company had a license.)

[vsatman]

First deal with a 'real' airline - Hawaiian:

They may get service for inter-island flights right away, but they aren't going to get service on the "long trips" until Starlink has ISL.

There is already 650 Starlink sats on orbit with ISL. Some 350 are fully operational and with every month about 150 more become fully operational. By the time a terminal get installed on the aircraft full ocean coverage will be assured. In 6 months from now there should be about 1250 ISL sats operational. And still increasing.

having  satellites with ISL in orbit is not the same as having a working ISL  service. I haven't yet read SpaceX's claims that they have  a working ISL service. In the non-GSO mode, it is a very difficult task to provide pointing, guidance and retention of the laser beam on a small receiver for distance up to 2000+ km

[Lars-J]

First deal with a 'real' airline - Hawaiian:

They may get service for inter-island flights right away, but they aren't going to get service on the "long trips" until Starlink has ISL.

There is already 650 Starlink sats on orbit with ISL. Some 350 are fully operational and with every month about 150 more become fully operational. By the time a terminal get installed on the aircraft full ocean coverage will be assured. In 6 months from now there should be about 1250 ISL sats operational. And still increasing.

having  satellites with ISL in orbit is not the same as having a working ISL  service. I haven't yet read SpaceX's claims that they have  a working ISL service. In the non-GSO mode, it is a very difficult task to provide pointing, guidance and retention of the laser beam on a small receiver for distance up to 2000+ km

I’m not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting that SpaceX is selling a service to an airline that they won’t be able to provide?

And this despite having hundreds of working satellites in orbit for months to demonstrate the technology?

[vsatman]

First deal with a 'real' airline - Hawaiian:

They may get service for inter-island flights right away, but they aren't going to get service on the "long trips" until Starlink has ISL.

There is already 650 Starlink sats on orbit with ISL. Some 350 are fully operational and with every month about 150 more become fully operational. By the time a terminal get installed on the aircraft full ocean coverage will be assured. In 6 months from now there should be about 1250 ISL sats operational. And still increasing.

having  satellites with ISL in orbit is not the same as having a working ISL  service. I haven't yet read SpaceX's claims that they have  a working ISL service. In the non-GSO mode, it is a very difficult task to provide pointing, guidance and retention of the laser beam on a small receiver for distance up to 2000+ km

I’m not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting that SpaceX is selling a service to an airline that they won’t be able to provide?

And this despite having hundreds of working satellites in orbit for months to demonstrate the technology?

I'm surprised it comes as a surprise to you that companies are selling a service they expect to be developed in 3,6 or 12 months?. This is a common practice.. But if you point to SpaceX's statement that ISLs are already working, I'm ready to say that I was wrong..

[Lars-J]

First deal with a 'real' airline - Hawaiian:

They may get service for inter-island flights right away, but they aren't going to get service on the "long trips" until Starlink has ISL.

There is already 650 Starlink sats on orbit with ISL. Some 350 are fully operational and with every month about 150 more become fully operational. By the time a terminal get installed on the aircraft full ocean coverage will be assured. In 6 months from now there should be about 1250 ISL sats operational. And still increasing.

having  satellites with ISL in orbit is not the same as having a working ISL  service. I haven't yet read SpaceX's claims that they have  a working ISL service. In the non-GSO mode, it is a very difficult task to provide pointing, guidance and retention of the laser beam on a small receiver for distance up to 2000+ km

I’m not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting that SpaceX is selling a service to an airline that they won’t be able to provide?

And this despite having hundreds of working satellites in orbit for months to demonstrate the technology?

I'm surprised it comes as a surprise to you that companies are selling a service they expect to be developed in 3,6 or 12 months?. This is a common practice.. But if you point to SpaceX's statement that ISLs are already working, I'm ready to say that I was wrong..

You didn’t answer my question. (Instead you replied with your own). Yes, the service is not ready now. They are planning to offer the service to Hawaiian airlines next year.

So I’ll ask again. What is your point here? Is it that ISL technology is so difficult that SpaceX cannot master it, and it won’t be ready in the next 18 months? What do YOU think.

[vsatman]

So I’ll ask again. What is your point here? Is it that ISL technology is so difficult that SpaceX cannot master it, and it won’t be ready in the next 18 months? What do YOU think.

Yes, ISL technology is extremely complex, even in the simplest case, when communication is established between neighboring satellites in the orbital plane, which have a more or less stable direction and distance between them, it is necessary to get a laser beam (its diameter will be several meters) into the receiver of another satellite at a distance of 2000 km and hold it continuously for many hours. In this case, the satellite can evade collision with other objects or change its position simply because it turned  the solar panels. As far as I know, all previous experiments on laser communication in space were periodic sessions of transmitting information lasting several minutes, and here we need a stable constant connection. In addition, there may be questions about converting a signal from the 30 GHz Ka band to the THz laser band and back while maintaining the signal modulation..

[DanClemmensen]

So I’ll ask again. What is your point here? Is it that ISL technology is so difficult that SpaceX cannot master it, and it won’t be ready in the next 18 months? What do YOU think.

Yes, ISL technology is extremely complex, even in the simplest case, when communication is established between neighboring satellites in the orbital plane, which have a more or less stable direction and distance between them, it is necessary to get a laser beam (its diameter will be several meters) into the receiver of another satellite at a distance of 2000 km and hold it continuously for many hours. In this case, the satellite can evade collision with other objects or change its position simply because it turned  the solar panels. As far as I know, all previous experiments on laser communication in space were periodic sessions of transmitting information lasting several minutes, and here we need a stable constant connection. In addition, there may be questions about converting a signal from the 30 GHz Ka band to the THz laser band and back while maintaining the signal modulation..

A laser transponder is basically a small telescope. Maintaining telescope pointing in space is a well-understood problem.

Almost all posts on this forum have been assuming that Starlink satellites are packet forwarders, not transponders. If so, forwarding occurs in the digital domain, which means the modulation on each link is independent. Even if they are using OADM on the ISLs (which I have not seen mentioned anywhere except in theory) they would almost certainly still forward at the frame level when converting to/from RF on the user links.

[EspenU]

So I’ll ask again. What is your point here? Is it that ISL technology is so difficult that SpaceX cannot master it, and it won’t be ready in the next 18 months? What do YOU think.

Yes, ISL technology is extremely complex, even in the simplest case, when communication is established between neighboring satellites in the orbital plane, which have a more or less stable direction and distance between them, it is necessary to get a laser beam (its diameter will be several meters) into the receiver of another satellite at a distance of 2000 km and hold it continuously for many hours. In this case, the satellite can evade collision with other objects or change its position simply because it turned  the solar panels. As far as I know, all previous experiments on laser communication in space were periodic sessions of transmitting information lasting several minutes, and here we need a stable constant connection. In addition, there may be questions about converting a signal from the 30 GHz Ka band to the THz laser band and back while maintaining the signal modulation..

A laser transponder is basically a small telescope. Maintaining telescope pointing in space is a well-understood problem.

Almost all posts on this forum have been assuming that Starlink satellites are packet forwarders, not transponders. If so, forwarding occurs in the digital domain, which means the modulation on each link is independent. Even if they are using OADM on the ISLs (which I have not seen mentioned anywhere except in theory) they would almost certainly still forward at the frame level when converting to/from RF on the user links.

Agreed. They would have to do it on a packet level due to routing anyway. Some packets need to be passed on, some to a ground station, and some to user terminals. So yes, direct forward isn't something they would have to do.

[DanClemmensen]

So I’ll ask again. What is your point here? Is it that ISL technology is so difficult that SpaceX cannot master it, and it won’t be ready in the next 18 months? What do YOU think.

Yes, ISL technology is extremely complex, even in the simplest case, when communication is established between neighboring satellites in the orbital plane, which have a more or less stable direction and distance between them, it is necessary to get a laser beam (its diameter will be several meters) into the receiver of another satellite at a distance of 2000 km and hold it continuously for many hours. In this case, the satellite can evade collision with other objects or change its position simply because it turned  the solar panels. As far as I know, all previous experiments on laser communication in space were periodic sessions of transmitting information lasting several minutes, and here we need a stable constant connection. In addition, there may be questions about converting a signal from the 30 GHz Ka band to the THz laser band and back while maintaining the signal modulation..

A laser transponder is basically a small telescope. Maintaining telescope pointing in space is a well-understood problem.

Almost all posts on this forum have been assuming that Starlink satellites are packet forwarders, not transponders. If so, forwarding occurs in the digital domain, which means the modulation on each link is independent. Even if they are using OADM on the ISLs (which I have not seen mentioned anywhere except in theory) they would almost certainly still forward at the frame level when converting to/from RF on the user links.

Agreed. They would have to do it on a packet level due to routing anyway. Some packets need to be passed on, some to a ground station, and some to user terminals. So yes, direct forward isn't something they would have to do.

It's theoretically possible to switch signals any of several levels, and each of us will often subconsciously model a system based on our experience with other systems. There are a large number of possible architectures for Starlink, and I do not know which one they chose. Some possibilities are discussed in a loosely-related patent that predates the early demonstrations of laser ISL:
      https://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=9,866,324.PN.&OS=PN/9,866,324&RS=PN/9,866,324

[vsatman]

A laser transponder is basically a small telescope. Maintaining telescope pointing in space is a well-understood problem.

Of course pointing a telescope in space to light from a star is not a problem. But there is one little thing - the star shines 360 degrees around itself and the laser has an angle of less than 0.001 degrees.
Starlight always hits the satellite where your telescope is located. Unlike a laser on another satellite 2000 km away..

[DanClemmensen]

A laser transponder is basically a small telescope. Maintaining telescope pointing in space is a well-understood problem.

Of course pointing a telescope in space to light from a star is not a problem. But there is one little thing - the star shines 360 degrees around itself and the laser has an angle of less than 0.001 degrees.
Starlight always hits the satellite where your telescope is located. Unlike a laser on another satellite 2000 km away..

In general the same telescope is used for both the transmit and the receive. If the telescope receiver has the other satellite in the center of its field of view, then the transmitted laser will hit the other satellite. There are a variety of techniques to keep the target centered in the field of view.

[Reynold]

Just 2% of Starlink users live outside of the West, data suggests

Last year, Sarfaraz Hassan, the chief technology officer at an adventure tourism startup in India’s northeastern Assam state, signed up to receive a Starlink unit from SpaceX. Hassan thought Elon Musk’s satellite internet service could help his company, Encamp, entice digital nomads to work from the rugged foothills of the eastern Himalayas, where fewer than 40% of people have access to broadband. Then, in early January, Starlink announced that preorders in India were being refunded until the company received license to operate in the country. After months of waiting, Hassan recently got his $99 deposit (about 7,500 rupees) back.

Hassan is one of the half a million people worldwide who have signed up to receive Elon Musk’s Starlink service but are still waiting for access. In India, where Starlink was supposed to arrive this month, SpaceX had planned to deploy 200,000 dishes across the country by the end of this year. Instead, the company has had to refund its waiting list at the direction of the Indian government, leaving thousands waiting for connectivity. (The Indian telecomms regulator had warned the public late last year not to pay for equipment before the company had a license.)

I have to say, I wonder if the 98% of customers who live "outside the west" are so few because nobody outside the west is interested, or because outside the west local telecommunications monopolies have captured the governmental regulatory bodies so that those potential customers can't actually sign up for service?  Witness what happened in India, for example.  China and Russia certainly won't allow their citizens to sign up, either, for even more overtly political reasons. 

So all it could take is a political change, and there are a lot more potential customers.  Fortunately, with SpaceX's launch and build economics, I don't think they will rely on those non western customers in the short term.