SpaceX Mars/Moon rover

[Vrommand]

The last months, we've seen a lot of teasers by Elon about Tesla's cybertruck (almost bulletproof, military APC, towing capacity ... )
I don't know but i have like the feeling this vehicle could be the foundation for a SpaceX Mars/Moon rover, specially the unveiling is at SpaceX HQ and it's like a super-secret vehicle (model Y and the semi-truck are open visible on the road)

When the time comes that Starship must be refueled on mars, they will need huge amounts of regolit. This could imo the workhorse for handling this job.
Some kind of SpaceX's multi-platform rover (like NASA had experimented with ATHLETE).

First post and not native english

[Eer]

Welcome to the forum! Your English is fine.

[baldusi]

I don't know about Tesla, but I do remember a comment from a few years back that SpaceX had to design everything to be Mars certificable.

[CuddlyRocket]

... we've seen a lot of teasers by Elon about Tesla's cybertruck (almost bulletproof, military APC, towing capacity ... )
I don't know but i have like the feeling this vehicle could be the foundation for a SpaceX Mars/Moon rover ...

Even without much in the way of modification, I think a Tesla truck would have a reasonable shot at breaking the distance record for a lunar rover (Lunokhod 2, 24 miles/39 km, 1973); perhaps even dropping off a science package every mile or so! It might even pass Opportunity's 26.2 miles all-time extra-terrestrial rover record. And be a damn sight cheaper than either to boot!

[Eka]

Tesla Trucks with space suit ready cabs called the Rover Base. Common base with dual or multi person cab. Base can be outfitted with 2 or more wheel pairs depending on needs. Versions with:
- telehandler boom with automated quick attach. Attachments include, but are not limited to: Forklift forks, payloader buckets, bulldozer blades, augers, small & medium & large object gripers, jackhammer heads, cable trencher/layer, arc welder head, and even NASA Science Modules. The telehandler boom is a cross between a tractor loader arm, and telehandler boom. It can dig like a tractor loader can, and it can do materials moving and placement like a telehandler can. Even high up. Heavy stuff like plants and plant sections may take coordination between two or more telehandler rovers to move and place.
- Dump bed with drop sides. Dump truck for moving bulk regolith over longer distances. When sides are dropped it can haul cargo from landing site to habitat and work areas.
- Exploration Habitat Box (Known as the RV) (Has mini version of Comms Power Tower) Solar array is for recharging the rover and habitat power when stopped on extended trips.
Because all the rover versions have Tesla electronic control systems, they are all self driving, and just need more programming to do special operations and coordinate their work. As a few rovers are digging a habitat trench or ice mine pit, one carrying a NASA Science Module can analyze and sample collect the trench surfaces as they are exposed. I also can see cabless versions of the telehandler and dump truck rovers, but having all those cabs around provides many spots to get out of the vacuum in an emergency.

Comms Power Towers. Small, Medium, and Large. Each one has:
- Space ready Powerwall in base.
- Supercharger ports with auto hookup charge cables.
- High power high speed optical communications link to talk to Earth orbiting satellite network.
- High speed optical communications links to talk to neighboring Comms and Power Towers.
- 3G/4G/5G cell tower for talking to Rovers, astronauts, and whatever else needs it.
- Self deploying solar array able to track the sun, Polar, mid latitude and equatorial styles.
- All are made with all functions so they can be part of a redundant network. If a link to earth fails, then another can take it's place. If more bandwidth is needed, multiple links can be used.
- The Comms Power Tower is also able to be used as a communications and power module for a plant or habitat. I'm thinking the large ones would be the size of an inter-modal shipping container, small 1/4th that size.
- Payloader bucket can be used to smooth and level pads for them. They can be moved into place with the telehandler. Once in place they spread their legs, deploy their solar array, and raise their cell tower. Rovers can automatically recharge at them because they can auto hookup.

[Mandella]

Yeah all things considered I would find it very hard to believe that a joint SpaceX/Tesla team was *not* putting together a Lunar/Mars rover. And while I don't *know* they are doing it under cover of their truck project, I would not be surprised at seeing the projected rover unveiled as a "surprise" during the truck reveal.

As an aside, I'm really hoping that truck is within my price range and doesn't look *too* weird -- I'd love to go electric and still be able to haul things around.

[guckyfan]

I don't know about Tesla, but I do remember a comment from a few years back that SpaceX had to design everything to be Mars certificable.

I remember they said with every decision they checked if it helps Mars. Not that the variant that helps Mars would always win

[Cheapchips]

One confirmed feature of the Tesla truck that'll be incredibly useful on Moon /Mars is the ability to run 240V powertools all day.

[nacnud]

...specially the unveiling is at SpaceX HQ...

The unveiling is next to SpaceX HQ because that is where the Tesla Design Centre is. The Tesla Semi and Roadster 2 were also unveiled there.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tesla+Design+Center/@33.9214208,-118.3298223,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xe55a00440a7d41ed!8m2!3d33.9214208!4d-118.3298223

[Eka]

The more and more I think about it rovers will need to be big and wide. Wide for stability. Big so they can carry a proper load and have space for an airlock. For the first few synods handling most stuff by the pallet will work, but after that an IMC is the smallest one will want to pick off a SS/SS18. And thus transport rovers will need to handle a multiple of that size. It is a simple matter of freight throughput.

The first rovers can be standard truck width, but shortly there will be need for large ones. Additionally the mining operations will want big. Just look at current mining trucks.

Additionally any ISRU operation will need to shift lots of dirt

IMC = Intermodal Container. 10'/20'/40' long, 8' wide, 8.5;' tall.

[DistantTemple]

So some blade runner / Mars suitable ideas, (quite mad and no hint from EM or SX that these could be included):

1. Suspension that changes geometry with at least "air" suspension that can be set at an enormous "off road" setting through normal, to extreme low "race" or "freeway" setting.

1a. Suspension moves the wheels OUT SIDEWAYS to make a wider stable "super off road" setting. Possibly adapting 1. to keep the body closer to horizontal when sideways on a steep slope.

2. 4 Wheel steering. With seamless control !

3. A motor in each wheel. This is the biggest change as it means that the existing S, X, and 3 powertrains cannot be used! But would really enable more freedom to do the above items.

4. Pretty enormous tyres like 36" dia or more. And quite wide, allowing each motor to be within the hub area and not protrude wider than the tyre.

5. The basic frame of the vehicle to continue to be some kind of "skateboard" to enable future use for a range of vehicles, including vans, trucks, and mini-busses etc. both on and off-world.

6. All parts at risk from vacuum and/or extreme (space) cold/heat to be either already prepared for this, or have a planned upgrade path for this - for off-world use.

7. The rear section will have some kind of fold up rigid cover to provide aerodynamics, and security. This could include the sides of the "bed" being much lower (this conflicts with big wheels)

8. The doors may have a 2-degrees of freedom, hinging both out and up, depending on sensed obstacles. When closed a clamp will pull the opening edge in to make a secure pressure (and water) seal.

9. An egress panel in the roof will be used in flood etc. So the vehicle will be impervious to flooding, and will be able to "drive" in water by tucking its wheels into the "highway" setting. (A water jet(s) will be a later option)

10. It will be possible to relocate (or duplicate) the driving position to a seat that lifts out of the open roof!

EM did say "Bladerunner". I'm thinking slightly mad max! However slightly "transformers" seems relevant. How can the Cybertruck, be several such different vehicles all at once? Well by transforming! Electric motors allow what could only be done at slower speeds with hydraulics previously. Tesla has developed several motors already, and a serious hub motor will be needed for multi-wheel transporters on Mars, similar to "Roll-Lift" but for moving large (but lighter)  equipment and HABS, over rougher terrain.

Future options include a 6 and 8 wheeled version. The hub motors and all wheel steering make this increase modular, and technically easier, if expensive. This tends toward the "Armadillo" in Armageddon, and paves the way for such a space vehicle-cum-mobileHAB for planetoid and asteroid exploration as well as Mars deep exploration.

A wide base is stable, but illegal on roads. Therefore transforming the wheelbase width is needed. This pretty much requires independent hub motors. Once you have hub motors, 4 wheel steering is easier. It even allows absolutely crazy rock climbing - which in the future will be controlled by the vehicle's AI ! Even almost "walking" by independently adjusting each wheel's position with the brakes locked!

The width can have software locks for legal road use in various jurisdictions.

[DistantTemple]

The traditional front crumple zone will be carefully designed "crush core" structures, to protect against a moderate collision without writing off the whole vehicle.

[Cheapchips]

So some blade runner / Mars suitable ideas, (quite mad and no hint from EM or SX that these could be included):

1. Suspension that changes geometry with at least "air" suspension that can be set at an enormous "off road" setting through normal, to extreme low "race" or "freeway" setting.

1a. Suspension moves the wheels OUT SIDEWAYS to make a wider stable "super off road" setting. Possibly adapting 1. to keep the body closer to horizontal when sideways on a steep slope.

2. 4 Wheel steering. With seamless control !

3. A motor in each wheel. This is the biggest change as it means that the existing S, X, and 3 powertrains cannot be used! But would really enable more freedom to do the above items.

4. Pretty enormous tyres like 36" dia or more. And quite wide, allowing each motor to be within the hub area and not protrude wider than the tyre.

5. The basic frame of the vehicle to continue to be some kind of "skateboard" to enable future use for a range of vehicles, including vans, trucks, and mini-busses etc. both on and off-world.

6. All parts at risk from vacuum and/or extreme (space) cold/heat to be either already prepared for this, or have a planned upgrade path for this - for off-world use.

7. The rear section will have some kind of fold up rigid cover to provide aerodynamics, and security. This could include the sides of the "bed" being much lower (this conflicts with big wheels)

8. The doors may have a 2-degrees of freedom, hinging both out and up, depending on sensed obstacles. When closed a clamp will pull the opening edge in to make a secure pressure (and water) seal.

9. An egress panel in the roof will be used in flood etc. So the vehicle will be impervious to flooding, and will be able to "drive" in water by tucking its wheels into the "highway" setting. (A water jet(s) will be a later option)

10. It will be possible to relocate (or duplicate) the driving position to a seat that lifts out of the open roof!

EM did say "Bladerunner". I'm thinking slightly mad max! However slightly "transformers" seems relevant. How can the Cybertruck, be several such different vehicles all at once? Well by transforming! Electric motors allow what could only be done at slower speeds with hydraulics previously. Tesla has developed several motors already, and a serious hub motor will be needed for multi-wheel transporters on Mars, similar to "Roll-Lift" but for moving large (but lighter)  equipment and HABS, over rougher terrain.

Future options include a 6 and 8 wheeled version. The hub motors and all wheel steering make this increase modular, and technically easier, if expensive. This tends toward the "Armadillo" in Armageddon, and paves the way for such a space vehicle-cum-mobileHAB for planetoid and asteroid exploration as well as Mars deep exploration.

A wide base is stable, but illegal on roads. Therefore transforming the wheelbase width is needed. This pretty much requires independent hub motors. Once you have hub motors, 4 wheel steering is easier. It even allows absolutely crazy rock climbing - which in the future will be controlled by the vehicle's AI ! Even almost "walking" by independently adjusting each wheel's position with the brakes locked!

The width can have software locks for legal road use in various jurisdictions.

The Rivian truck uses torque steering, since that's easy to do with four motors.  I'd expect the Tesla truck / Mars rover to do the same since the Semi uses torque steering to avoid jackknifing.  Seems mechanically simpler to my none engineer mind than hub motors.

The Tesla truck might not be based of the Semi but Musk was certainly suggesting that during the Semi announcement.  It would mean that it departs from the skate layout.  The Semi has two hefty bars as a pulling chassis. The motors are mounted between these. The battery packs run width wise across the top.  Suppose that's still a kind of skate, just a high-rise one. 

[docmordrid]

>
The Rivian truck uses torque steering, since that's easy to do with four motors.  I'd expect the Tesla truck / Mars rover to do the same since the Semi uses torque steering to avoid jackknifing.  Seems mechanically simpler to my none engineer mind than hub motors.
>

OTOH, the Lordstown Motors Endurance pickup will use hub motors.  They recently bought GM's massive Lordstown plant. Run by Tesla alumnus Rich Schmidt.

As DistantTemple noted, they can be put on outriggers which can help with stowage for transport and with enabling variable geometry.

[lamontagne]

Tesla semi truck base frame model.
There are two version of the semi, with capacity up to 1000 km of range.
This is based on the published information I could find.  For the 300 miles (480 km) version, the expected mass of the overall vehicle is 25000 pounds (11 000 kg) for the semi truck.  Of this, about 5-6000 kg is the batteries. The truck uses 4 model 3 electric engines for a total power of over 1000 hp ( 750 kW).
Pneumatic suspension.
There would be 4 batteries, at 250 kWh each, so 1000 kWh of energy capacity.
The structure is 7m long, so it fits nicely in a Starship cargo hold.

I've substituted double steel wire wheels for the rear axle drives, as compared to the 2 wide tire wheels used on Earth. But since this vehicles works during the day, and can be stored in a garage at night, I wonder if standard tires might not be used instead for most application?  There is no reason to leave this vehicle out in the Martian winter, except for an exploration version.  The pneumatic suspension would be covered with flexible heat insulation, and have a heat source inside.

This can serve as a basis for any number of Mars exploration and utility vehicle and variations.  Actually, it's probably much too powerful for most applications, so I'm mostly going to be working with a lower capacity version with just two axles and probably only 500 kWh of battery and 2 motors.  This would still have 500 hp of motor but would mass about 3000 kg less.  The basic frame would be 1,2m shorter.

Heating the cabin might require a few 2-5? kW at night, less during the day, if any.  Battery cooling might supply some of this during vehicle movement.

Wonder what the range might be?

The other option is building up from what will be the truck base.  This might be appropriate for smaller vehicles, or if the base is mass constrained.  There are a number of posts on this subject here:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32636.msg1086383#msg1086383

The images show both a short cab and a longer cab.  The short cab may not be the best solution.

[yoram]

There's also an older thread on this topic:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46281.msg1852270#msg1852270

[DistantTemple]

>
The Rivian truck uses torque steering, since that's easy to do with four motors.  I'd expect the Tesla truck / Mars rover to do the same since the Semi uses torque steering to avoid jackknifing.  Seems mechanically simpler to my none engineer mind than hub motors.
>

OTOH, the Lordstown Motors Endurance pickup will use hub motors.  They recently bought GM's massive Lordstown plant. Run by Tesla alumnus Rich Schmidt.

As DistantTemple noted, they can be put on outriggers which can help with stowage for transport and with enabling variable geometry.

Yes I agree torque steering will be a natural part of the stability and roadholding control particularly useful for high speed on unstable surfaces like gravel, ice, sand, etc. However 4 motors whether in the hub or at the end of an axle can provide this. However with hub motors it is easier to have the wheel steer, as there is no axle, and very much easier to have extreme suspension, as there is no axle that has to accommodate changing angle and LENGTH. Changing geometry, such as widening the wheelbase requires the motor to follow the wheel - unless the axle can lengthen greatly!

The Rivan has its motors mounted in the body: https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/27/rivian-debuts-an-electric-pickup-and-suv-designed-to-look-good-while-getting-dirty/   
 EM is positioning the Cybertruck as exceptionally "out there" in a sci-fi/tec/space kind of way. Rivan is not. Rivan is a standard truck clone, but electric, with excellent performance. Rivan doesn't need hub motors, it will not drag mining equipment or HABs around ice quarries on Mars!

There are some wild vehicles on YouTube fording rivers in Siberia etc. Expect the Cybertruck to compere with these!
 Mad Idea 11: Armoured somewhat v shaped hull - Means its water capabilities become a functional fast boat,  and the armour will allow some moderate IED explosion resistance, as well as random groundings and loose road debris impacts.

I bet military sales will be impressive. Other military suppliers charge high prices! Will Tesla make a vehicle to replace the Humvee, the jeep, and Land-rover, and even a light APC out of the CyberTruck?

[DistantTemple]

Love your renders lamontagne.
However your trucks are all based on a "lorry" base, more like the "semi" that is suitable for a somewhat prepared or graded surface.

The CyberTruck I suggest will positioned to cope with extreme off-road, and on Mars will be much more capable as an exploration vehicle. And on earth: off road. If EM tries to be the very best, then its off road will be extreme! Yet It is still supposed to be a truck, and super fast!. Lets face it most purchasers will need it to lug their welding or building gear around, and bikes at the weekend. However if it will go where all other trucks fail, then there will be a big market!

[Cheapchips]

Elite Dangerous has a fun concept for a hub motor 'go anywhere' scout vehicle.  The wheels tuck in for transport.

It's a hoot to drive around. Obviously a bit gamey given the source but it has directional thrusters that allow hops and pin it down on lower gravity moons.

[lamontagne]

Love your renders lamontagne.
However your trucks are all based on a "lorry" base, more like the "semi" that is suitable for a somewhat prepared or graded surface.

The CyberTruck I suggest will positioned to cope with extreme off-road, and on Mars will be much more capable as an exploration vehicle. And on earth: off road. If EM tries to be the very best, then its off road will be extreme! Yet It is still supposed to be a truck, and super fast!. Lets face it most purchasers will need it to lug their welding or building gear around, and bikes at the weekend. However if it will go where all other trucks fail, then there will be a big market!

Guess it depends on what is the ultimate objective, explore impossible areas or set up a practical Mars base.  But I agree my designs are for fairly tame exploration vehicles.  My favorite real world machine for real useful exploration has always been the Timberjack.  But there aren't very many forest on Mars so it maybe a bit overkill ;-)

[Eka]

*snip*
My favorite real world machine for real useful exploration has always been the Timberjack.  But there aren't very many forest on Mars so it maybe a bit overkill ;-)

Looks like a swivel hip tractor or wheel loader. I suggest having a suspension.

Hub motors may sound great, but they mean lots of unsprung weight. Ok for a very heavy vehicle, or a slow one.

[DistantTemple]

*snip*
My favorite real world machine for real useful exploration has always been the Timberjack.  But there aren't very many forest on Mars so it maybe a bit overkill ;-)

Looks like a swivel hip tractor or wheel loader. I suggest having a suspension.

Hub motors may sound great, but they mean lots of unsprung weight. Ok for a very heavy vehicle, or a slow one.

Analysing the negative impact on the design and performance of the vehicle from 4 hub motors is beyond my maths! So inbstead a non-mathematical opinion: At high speed on a highway somewhat massive hubmotors will probably help, as the tyres will be forced to absorb  more of the small bumps in the road, due to the inertia of the hubmoters. At low speed it will not matter much. At high speed on an off road surface, they could increase the risk to wheels tyres and suspension, if random large rocks are hit, as the wheel will be less able to rise quickly over the obstruction. On sideways slopes it would help to lower the centre of mass, and spread it wide to the edges of the vehicle, reducing the risk of rolling over.

[DistantTemple]

Cheapchips' post about "Elite Dangerous" (ED) above looks totally wacky and far from a Cybertruck. However the front wheels in the Bladerrunner "car" are slightly like the "legs" in the ED.

Elon is wedded to "first principles" Despite comments about "beauty", when he says "like bladerunner"  I think he will be referring to first principles, physics, and engineering, and not so much body style.

The way wheels grab the ground and transform rotational energy into kinetic energy of the vehicle, in any terrain is one key point of departure.

Doing away with the fixed axle height that limits the type and role of the vehicle is another.

Being able to cross obstacles that would otherwise block a wheeled vehicle, especially where it is massively inconvenient for the humans to disembark is the final driver.

This will be the Martian exploration vehicle par excellence! Also suitable in Canada, Antarctica, Alaska, and Siberia.... and for dropping the Kids to school!

[lamontagne]

Elite Dangerous has a fun concept for a hub motor 'go anywhere' scout vehicle.  The wheels tuck in for transport.

It's a hoot to drive around. Obviously a bit gamey given the source but it has directional thrusters that allow hops and pin it down on lower gravity moons.

This is not going to fulfill the intent of the original post, move a lot of regolith.  It's going to be a very limited use exploration vehicle.  The Semi platform may be less exciting, but it's much more capable and will get the job done much better.

[_MECO]

On the topic of vehicles, what is the practical upper limit on speed be for vehicles driving on unprepared regolith on the Moon or Mars? There's less gravitational force but your mass won't change, so vehicles would either need far wider wheelbases or simply to not go as fast.

[Cheapchips]

Elite Dangerous has a fun concept for a hub motor 'go anywhere' scout vehicle.  The wheels tuck in for transport.

It's a hoot to drive around. Obviously a bit gamey given the source but it has directional thrusters that allow hops and pin it down on lower gravity moons.

This is not going to fulfill the intent of the original post, move a lot of regolith.  It's going to be a very limited use exploration vehicle.  The Semi platform may be less exciting, but it's much more capable and will get the job done much better.

Agree, ED's SRV just sprang to mind as an fun hub motor example.  I think your semi based concepts are much more likely.  From a visual perspective, I really want to beef up the wheels on your renders though, even if in practice that's unnecessary.

Something I'm keen to see at the Truck event is what progress they expect on off road autonomy.  Then how do you translate neural nets trained on Earth terrain to Moon/Mars?  TV Sci-fi teaches us that an Earth quarry with a coloured lens filter would be an exact replica of an alien environment.  Not sure that's entire true. 

 

 

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1197627433970589696

Tesla Cybertruck (pressurized edition) will be official truck of Mars

twitter.com/ward069/status/1197627109595865090

You think Cybertruck will be used on Mars?

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1197627240697061376

Of course

[DistantTemple]

So some blade runner / Mars suitable ideas, (quite mad and no hint from EM or SX that these could be included):

1. Suspension that changes geometry with at least "air" suspension that can be set at an enormous "off road" setting through normal, to extreme low "race" or "freeway" setting.

1a. Suspension moves the wheels OUT SIDEWAYS to make a wider stable "super off road" setting. Possibly adapting 1. to keep the body closer to horizontal when sideways on a steep slope.

2. 4 Wheel steering. With seamless control !

3. A motor in each wheel. This is the biggest change as it means that the existing S, X, and 3 powertrains cannot be used! But would really enable more freedom to do the above items.

4. Pretty enormous tyres like 36" dia or more. And quite wide, allowing each motor to be within the hub area and not protrude wider than the tyre.

5. The basic frame of the vehicle to continue to be some kind of "skateboard" to enable future use for a range of vehicles, including vans, trucks, and mini-busses etc. both on and off-world.

6. All parts at risk from vacuum and/or extreme (space) cold/heat to be either already prepared for this, or have a planned upgrade path for this - for off-world use.

7. The rear section will have some kind of fold up rigid cover to provide aerodynamics, and security. This could include the sides of the "bed" being much lower (this conflicts with big wheels)

8. The doors may have a 2-degrees of freedom, hinging both out and up, depending on sensed obstacles. When closed a clamp will pull the opening edge in to make a secure pressure (and water) seal.

9. An egress panel in the roof will be used in flood etc. So the vehicle will be impervious to flooding, and will be able to "drive" in water by tucking its wheels into the "highway" setting. (A water jet(s) will be a later option)

10. It will be possible to relocate (or duplicate) the driving position to a seat that lifts out of the open roof!

EM did say "Bladerunner". I'm thinking slightly mad max! However slightly "transformers" seems relevant. How can the Cybertruck, be several such different vehicles all at once? Well by transforming! Electric motors allow what could only be done at slower speeds with hydraulics previously. Tesla has developed several motors already, and a serious hub motor will be needed for multi-wheel transporters on Mars, similar to "Roll-Lift" but for moving large (but lighter)  equipment and HABS, over rougher terrain.

Future options include a 6 and 8 wheeled version. The hub motors and all wheel steering make this increase modular, and technically easier, if expensive. This tends toward the "Armadillo" in Armageddon, and paves the way for such a space vehicle-cum-mobileHAB for planetoid and asteroid exploration as well as Mars deep exploration.

A wide base is stable, but illegal on roads. Therefore transforming the wheelbase width is needed. This pretty much requires independent hub motors. Once you have hub motors, 4 wheel steering is easier. It even allows absolutely crazy rock climbing - which in the future will be controlled by the vehicle's AI ! Even almost "walking" by independently adjusting each wheel's position with the brakes locked!

The width can have software locks for legal road use in various jurisdictions.

Since seeing Musks tweet: <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-cards="hidden" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Cybertruck design influenced partly by The Spy Who Loved Me https://t.co/HKBzxFNfzm</p>&mdash; Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 21 November 2019
Final Bet before reveal:
I am more convinced than ever that the wheels will have some unconventional suspension! No they will not fold inside flat like Jame's but they will be able to retract to racing height, and push far down to rock climber position.
Since EM earlier said "dual motor" I retract my hub motor scheme for a later update.... Although 4 (hub) motors is obviously the correct engineering solution, even if it is using long extensible prop shafts!
However the submarine/boat concept reinforced my roof hatch and driving position! The EM Mars (PRESSURISED) rover tweet conflicts with the flat James Bond version! but it will just have to be a thicker slice!

[su27k]

The more I hear, the more it starts to sound like NASA's own concept vehicle:

If I'm not mistaken, this concept vehicle was built by Delaware North, the private company run KSC visitor center, as an attraction. I don't think much NASA concept went into it.

[50_Caliber]

The Tesla Truck definitely looks like a Mars/moon rover. The Tesla armor glass is very interesting, albeit it provided an embarrassment at the reveal when the truck window broke. The demonstration of the toughness of the steel was impressive though.

 

[Ludus]

I suspect they never tried that test on the actual truck, just drop tests and throws at a separate truck door. The stainless steel body would hold the glass rigidly in place not letting any energy dissipate with movement.
 
The same stainless steel alloy used for Starship.

[Cheapchips]

Wonder how they'll adapt it to be pressurised?  They've ditched body shell sat on a skate of other Teslas.  The triangular cab/bed is structural, so the silhouette probably can't change that much. 

[50_Caliber]

Wonder how they'll adapt it to be pressurised?  They've ditched body shell sat on a skate of other Teslas.  The triangular cab/structured is structural, so the silhouette probably can't change that much.

I think they'll get rid of the doors; from looking at the interior, it definitely has room for an entry hatch on the top.

[Oli]

After seeing that abomination I can now safely say that Elon is dead serious about Mars.

Ah well, Elon actually said it himself, should read thread 

[su27k]

Wonder how they'll adapt it to be pressurised?  They've ditched body shell sat on a skate of other Teslas.  The triangular cab/bed is structural, so the silhouette probably can't change that much. 

Yeah, I'm not sure how much relevance this truck has in relation to rovers. However it's quite interesting to read the optimizations and trade-offs they did in order to mass produce it at low cost, such as having the stainless steel body as structural. I think this design process is more relevant to this forum, since this is probably the same design process they're using on Starship.

[sanman]

Does Musk's latest announced vehicle, the Cybertruck, have the makings of an off-world rover for the Moon or Mars?




https://www.space.com/tesla-cybertruck-stainless-steel-spacex-starship.html

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-cybertruck-sure-mars-rover-concept

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1197627433970589696



Is this just a promotional marketing ploy by Musk -- a la "Falcon-wing" doors -- or is there sound reason to believe that the development of Cybertruck could aid in the development of an off-world lunar/Mars rover?

What elements of the Cybertruck vehicle could be most useful in an off-world rover, and what would have to be modified/upgraded in order to meet the demands of a lunar/Mars environment?

What would be the useful applications or operational needs that such a vehicle have to  be designed to fulfill?

Is there any NASA contract that such an off-world vehicle might be offered up for, with a chance to gain government funding?

What other off-world concepts would this vehicle have to compete against? And how do they compare?

[Markstark]

Bit off-topic, but I could see the military interested in the tri-motor variant for terrestrial applications. Pricing and range are very impressive (also very very fast).

Some of those features may make it attractive for space applications as well.

I don’t know much about EV/battery technology. Only that cold weather is a challenge. Can someone more knowledge speak to whether one of these could be delivered to the moon on a Starship and used as an unpressurized rover as-is? Would electronics require rad hardening to survive?

As far as competitors, I recall some recent press releases about JAXA and Toyota working on a rover.

[sanman]

It does look like some crossover hybrid of a Humvee and a DeLorean. Musk was boasting that the ultra-hard steel shell was somewhat bulletproof (which is more than can be said of a basic Humvee).
Maybe that would make them micrometeoroid-resistant as well.

I was thinking that the rubber tires would have to be replaced with a more metallized version to withstand the off-world environment.

Perhaps the interior cabin environment isn't so large as to require a more spherical shape to contain atmospheric pressure.
Shouldn't an off-world rover necessarily have a larger interior volume?

I was imagining that those flat angular top surfaces would be fitted with solar panels for recharging in situ.

How about a bulldozer variant for clearing and preparing surfaces as landing pads?

Wouldn't they have to seriously limit the speed on the vehicle, to avoid launching off the bumpy ground in lower gravity environments like the Moon or Mars?

[docmordrid]

I see a vacuum-modded Cybertruck skateboard with several coachwork/equipment options. The trailer shown below may also have possibilities.

[DistantTemple]

The Cybertruck could easily have a CyberVan variant, where the lines of the fromt wedge carry further back, and then go horizontal over the "bed" - which then becomes the "van". This would be a useful off-road van (or light "APC"!) for Earth use, but for Off-Earth could increase the pressurised volume, and provide a large vertical door or lock at the rear, or maybe "suitlocks" (where the suit remains "outside", and the person climbs into it from "inside" and then detaches)

Another possibility for off-Earth, is to ditch the aerodynamics altogether, and make the "van" part be just a large box, with full standing height, from the existing angle in the roof, aft.

This large rear "door" could also allow a concertina joint to a large trailer HAB module, loosely based on the trailer shown above.

I agree large flat surfaces are not ideal for a pressure vessel at all!

[DistantTemple]

An alternative "van" version, for on and off Earth, could keep the exact style and shape up to the horizontal "chine" (that runs down the sides), but above this have a full length van body, with even standing headroom, or at least "transit" height. The design could be angular like NASA's mobile HAB/rover ideas, and still be a recognisable variant, or part of the "Cyber" family.
This would be a major change, but leaving all of the body below the chine alone, where all the suspension, motors, electronics, battery mounting etc etc are would limit the manufactring, and part-count differences drastically. It would also make an amazing camper.

[gaballard]

It does look like some crossover hybrid of a Humvee and a DeLorean. Musk was boasting that the ultra-hard steel shell was somewhat bulletproof (which is more than can be said of a basic Humvee).
Maybe that would make them micrometeoroid-resistant as well.

I was thinking that the rubber tires would have to be replaced with a more metallized version to withstand the off-world environment.

Perhaps the interior cabin environment isn't so large as to require a more spherical shape to contain atmospheric pressure.
Shouldn't an off-world rover necessarily have a larger interior volume?

I was imagining that those flat angular top surfaces would be fitted with solar panels for recharging in situ.

How about a bulldozer variant for clearing and preparing surfaces as landing pads?

Wouldn't they have to seriously limit the speed on the vehicle, to avoid launching off the bumpy ground in lower gravity environments like the Moon or Mars?

The windows are (supposedly... not necessarily demonstrated) unbreakable glass... that, along with the thick steel make sense for a pressure vessel (obviously not as-is, but they're thinking along those lines).

Not to mention it's built from the same stainless steel variant as Starship... would make it easy to repair one with scraps from a permanently grounded SS, or vice versa.

I could see them using the Cybertruck "skateboard" (the battery, motor and wheels) to transfer cargo containers to/from a landing site and colony. Make them sized to the skate, lift them down with a crane, and off they go. Put a pressure vessel on top if you want a rover. Good point about having to limit the power... although I would really, really love to see one of these just go full throttle on the Moon. Could it hit orbital/escape velocity if a crater wall is used as a ramp? Now that's a thread...

[Ludus]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-electric-pickup-engineering-manufacturing/amp/

There maybe some counterintuitive stainless steel engineering going on here too. That faceted brutalist look seems to arise from a very different approach to manufacturing like steel origami.

[Rocket Science]

The Tesla Truck definitely looks like a Mars/moon rover. The Tesla armor glass is very interesting, albeit it provided an embarrassment at the reveal when the truck window broke. The demonstration of the toughness of the steel was impressive though.

My comment on YouTube on the reveal was "someone forgot to remove the protective shipping container off the truck..." YMMV...

[Eka]

Needs a bigger cab for EVA suits.

[DrakeF]

Yes and no about needing to be bigger for EVA suits. The new EVA suits that NASA was designing were capable of being mounted on the exterior of a vehicle. So technically they could make it more of a van instead of truck and still have a pressurized airlock where they can get into the suits from the interior of the Cybertruck and detach from the truck and reattach when they are coming back to the truck. It would require someone staying inside the truck to repressurize before the others get out of the EVA suits but is an option

[Nomadd]

 Did they hire the old Pontiac Aztec design team or the prop crew from a low budget, 70s, post apacolyptic sci-fi movie?

[RotoSequence]

Did they hire the old Pontiac Aztec design team or the prop crew from a low budget, 70s, post apacolyptic sci-fi movie?

I figure the vehicle is one part retro-futurism whimsy, one part love of stainless steel, and one part "hey, we can build this with almost no capital investment in manufacturing infrastructure."

[Patchouli]

Most of the stuff would have to be changed to operate in a vacuum environment.
The batteries and motor controller might be able to be adapted but you'll need a new cooling system,place the batteries in an insulated box like the Lunar rover and Mars rovers, and the electronics of the motor controller would have to be redone to use a cold plate or placed inside a pressurized container.
Once you're done little of the original vehicle would be left in an unaltered state and you would have been better off starting with a clean sheet.

[Lampyridae]

Its purpose is more to generate sales on Earth for being a Moon/Mars pickup truck. But I'm sure they've designed it to be able to take vacuum modifications. And SpaceX is constantly iterating anyway.

[Star One]

Elon tweeted this out which rather gives the game away as the future he’s designing with both the Cybertruck and Starship so I wouldn’t be surprised to see vehicles on other planets following the same design route.


https://mobile.twitter.com/i/web/status/1198088393676058625

It’s a link to this article.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/blade-runners-syd-mead-says-cybertruck-exceeds-expectations-2019-11

As an aside is the same steel that Starship is being made out of?

[CJ]

I've never been a Tesla fan (electric cars aren't my thing) but, the Cybertruck amazed me. I love the look of the design, a lot, and the 16 inch ground clearance a massive allure to someone like me who offroads a lot. The CG looks to be lower than on an SUV, another big plus for offroading. If it wasn't for the no-dashboard center mount screen and it being a "connected" car, I'd have probably bought one. (I do think that they deserve massive credit for doing something unusual and different). The biggest plus factor for me: the 16 inch ground clearance (assuming it can take the punishment of going on jeep trails, etc) with all wheel drive.

It's that offroading capability (assumed at this point) that makes me think the Cybertruck could be the basis for a lunar or martian rover. That's what's needed on the moon or on mars; an offroad electric vehicle. The suspension would have to be changed a lot to be good in the lower G, and I know there would need to be adaptions for battery temp issues, vacuum tolerance, etc, and the streamlined body could be changed to something more useful (seeing as how air drag is not a problem), maybe make a van out of it - a pressurized van, with a suit port (EVA suit stays outside).

For a near-the-base runabout though, I think it masses a lot more than something at least as as suitable; an open, light electric vehicle similar to the Apollo lunar rovers.

[hamerad]

I suspect they never tried that test on the actual truck, just drop tests and throws at a separate truck door. The stainless steel body would hold the glass rigidly in place not letting any energy dissipate with movement.
 
The same stainless steel alloy used for Starship.

Apparantly they did test it before though.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1198090787520598016?

Franz throws steel ball at Cybertruck window right before launch. Guess we have some improvements to make before production haha.

[RoboGoofers]

From a practical standpoint, the boring company pods make more sense as people movers on Mars. Make them out of stainless with an airlock. Plenty of room to suit up, no need for a driver's seat ("Where we're going we won't need drivers"). It just needs a higher ground clearance for Mars.

Consider also that Tesla trains its autopilot on data from the car fleet, so the value of the CT comes from offroading data for autopilot. The maintenance logs for the trucks will also be invaluable for making a robust Mars Rover.

[oiorionsbelt]

It sounds as though the cyber truck is not based off the same "skateboard" chassis as Teslas other vehicles are. The stainless body paneling is the structural "backbone/chassis"

[testguy]

At least for me, I see similarities to the F-117 design.  I wonder what included angles the sheet metal forms?  Just joking!

[lamontagne]

Although I prefer the Semi truck base as a platform, there is a lot to be said for a smaller truck that could haul a base camp on a trailer.  The base camp could include a large solar cell array, and could supply a number of trucks and small ATVs for intensive exploration. 
The truck could also pull a drill rig for water exploration.
The large semi based vehicles would come later for resource extraction and heavier work.
This is particularly true for Mars, much more difficult on the Moon, due to the long, cold night.

[Twark_Main]

...
I was imagining that those flat angular top surfaces would be fitted with solar panels for recharging in situ.
...

Seems Elon is on the same page. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1197889310550216704

...
As an aside is the same steel that Starship is being made out of?

Yes it's the same steel. During the Cybertruck unveiling Elon said, quoting exactly, "it's ultra-hard, cold-rolled stainless steel alloy that we've developed. We're going to be using the same alloy in the Starship rocket and in the Cybertruck."

[raketa]

Bit off-topic, but I could see the military interested in the tri-motor variant for terrestrial applications. Pricing and range are very impressive (also very very fast).

Some of those features may make it attractive for space applications as well.

I don’t know much about EV/battery technology. Only that cold weather is a challenge. Can someone more knowledge speak to whether one of these could be delivered to the moon on a Starship and used as an unpressurized rover as-is? Would electronics require rad hardening to survive?

As far as competitors, I recall some recent press releases about JAXA and Toyota working on a rover.

Battery actually has no trouble with cold when not used.
When they start to be charged or discharged they have to be warm up to temperature around 24C. Tesla make this technology better with every new car.

[Twark_Main]

Bit off-topic, but I could see the military interested in the tri-motor variant for terrestrial applications. Pricing and range are very impressive (also very very fast).

Some of those features may make it attractive for space applications as well.

I don’t know much about EV/battery technology. Only that cold weather is a challenge. Can someone more knowledge speak to whether one of these could be delivered to the moon on a Starship and used as an unpressurized rover as-is? Would electronics require rad hardening to survive?

As far as competitors, I recall some recent press releases about JAXA and Toyota working on a rover.

Battery actually has no trouble with cold when not used.
When they start to be charged or discharged they have to be warm up to temperature around 24C. Tesla make this technology better with every new car.

This is not accurate. Tesla batteries are actually far better than that.

Tesla lithium-ion batteries are capable of discharging even when below freezing (yes the cold reduces range, but the car doesn't stop working). But lithium-ion batteries should not be charged below that temperature, or else it will damage the cell. At low temperatures the Tesla software will first limit regenerative braking power, and then it will disable regenerative braking altogether (the dreaded  "dashed line").

Tesla diagnostic screens from different cars show different temperature numbers, but the "heat to" temperature is between -10C and 8C, and the "cool to" temperature is roughly 50C (though it will begin passive cooling with the radiator at 30-40C).

[raketa]

Bit off-topic, but I could see the military interested in the tri-motor variant for terrestrial applications. Pricing and range are very impressive (also very very fast).

Some of those features may make it attractive for space applications as well.

I don’t know much about EV/battery technology. Only that cold weather is a challenge. Can someone more knowledge speak to whether one of these could be delivered to the moon on a Starship and used as an unpressurized rover as-is? Would electronics require rad hardening to survive?

As far as competitors, I recall some recent press releases about JAXA and Toyota working on a rover.

Battery actually has no trouble with cold when not used.
When they start to be charged or discharged they have to be warm up to temperature around 24C. Tesla make this technology better with every new car.

This is not accurate. Tesla batteries are actually far better than that.

Tesla lithium-ion batteries are capable of discharging even when below freezing (yes the cold reduces range, but the car doesn't stop working). But lithium-ion batteries should not be charged below that temperature, or else it will damage the cell. At low temperatures the Tesla software will first limit regenerative braking power, and then it will disable regenerative braking altogether (the dreaded  "dashed line").

Tesla diagnostic screens from different cars show different temperature numbers, but the "heat to" temperature is between -10C and 8C, and the "cool to" temperature is roughly 50C (though it will begin passive cooling with the radiator at 30-40C).

Sorry but you are wrong. Tesla invention to make last battery for years is keeping them in very narrow temperature when in use charge or discharge. This is reason Leaf sucks no temperature management.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Earendil]

I think a heavily modified version for Mars it is much more probable than for the Moon. And heh did say "Mars".

1. EVA suits for Mars will be much more compact - if you pyt just 2 large seats in front you can actually use Dragon-like pressure suits with helmet off.. then you just attach o2 packs and helmets, depressure the cabin (colelct air in tanks) and go out..
2.  Temp/amplitude extreems and lower for Mars than for the Moon - hence less overall insulation for cabin and electronics needed.
3. Motors and batteries should be overall fine.
4. Extendable solar panels are great as well..

More mass will be added because of insulation and life-support, but then it is 3 timess less gravity, so it will have a decent range even though it might use a lot of energy for life suppport... Think about it. even if 2 times more mass, that's still less on Mars. Then with max speed at say 30 mph... you know  that every EV is rated at 60ish mph and might get up to 1.5 times more range travelling slow..


I think it is doable.

Is it pracical though? As others have pointed - there is no much point in this shape on Mars..  You do not need the aerodinamics, you need volume and capability.. So you make it more van like, but then it looses connection with the cybertrk..

I think Elon will make everything possible to get the vehicle as close as possible to the original. It is matter of pride and a great selling point as well.. you get basically to buy the vehicle goig to Mars!

[Star One]

Battery wise everyone really seems to be waiting for solid state batteries.

[Twark_Main]

Bit off-topic, but I could see the military interested in the tri-motor variant for terrestrial applications. Pricing and range are very impressive (also very very fast).

Some of those features may make it attractive for space applications as well.

I don’t know much about EV/battery technology. Only that cold weather is a challenge. Can someone more knowledge speak to whether one of these could be delivered to the moon on a Starship and used as an unpressurized rover as-is? Would electronics require rad hardening to survive?

As far as competitors, I recall some recent press releases about JAXA and Toyota working on a rover.

Battery actually has no trouble with cold when not used.
When they start to be charged or discharged they have to be warm up to temperature around 24C. Tesla make this technology better with every new car.

This is not accurate. Tesla batteries are actually far better than that.

Tesla lithium-ion batteries are capable of discharging even when below freezing (yes the cold reduces range, but the car doesn't stop working). But lithium-ion batteries should not be charged below that temperature, or else it will damage the cell. At low temperatures the Tesla software will first limit regenerative braking power, and then it will disable regenerative braking altogether (the dreaded  "dashed line").

Tesla diagnostic screens from different cars show different temperature numbers, but the "heat to" temperature is between -10C and 8C, and the "cool to" temperature is roughly 50C (though it will begin passive cooling with the radiator at 30-40C).

Sorry but you are wrong. Tesla invention to make last battery for years is keeping them in very narrow temperature when in use charge or discharge.

Sorry, but I am right.   But lets please go beyond "he said/she said."

I have given sources showing that Tesla batteries can be discharged at temperatures below 24C. And sources showing that Tesla's "narrow" battery temperature maintenance range is much wider than you claim.

What is your source saying Tesla batteries completely shut down at battery temperatures below 24C (which, let's not forget, is equal to a balmy 75.2F!), requiring that the battery to be warmed up to that temperature before it starts working? Spoiler: there is no source, because it's simply not true.

This is reason Leaf sucks no temperature management.

The old Leaf had no way to air condition the batteries, it could only blow air across them. That's why their temperature management sucked (and not because they discharged the battery below 24C/75F).

[lamontagne]

Cybertruck vs Semi accessorized as a boom truck

[lamontagne]

Semi as movable base vs cybertruck

[Sensei]

I do not see a lot of purpose for a pressured Cybertruck: Then you have a pressured capsule (Suit) in a pressured capsule (CT). Without a Airlock?!

The only two good usecases I could see is:

1. A striped-down CT without a pressured chassy. That would be a Luna Rover on steroids
2. A shuttle-vehicle without airlock for a use without a suit:

You will have a lot of uses where you only want to shuttle some persons or small material between the pressured garage of one Starship to an other Starship garage or the pressured garage of a base. Here you can jump in an CT without a suit, drive out of the vehicle-airlock, down the elevator some kilometers to the the other Starship.

[Mandella]

I do not see a lot of purpose for a pressured Cybertruck: Then you have a pressured capsule (Suit) in a pressured capsule (CT). Without a Airlock?!

The only two good usecases I could see is:

1. A striped-down CT without a pressured chassy. That would be a Luna Rover on steroids
2. A shuttle-vehicle without airlock for a use without a suit:

You will have a lot of uses where you only want to shuttle some persons or small material between the pressured garage of one Starship to an other Starship garage or the pressured garage of a base. Here you can jump in an CT without a suit, drive out of the vehicle-airlock, down the elevator some kilometers to the the other Starship.

Airlocks are really the exception rather than the rule. The LEM had none, you had to depressurize the entire cabin. A Mars/Luna rated Cybertruck could do the same thing, although of course all interior gear would have to be vacuum rated too.

[lamontagne]

One interesting option might be to have an optionally pressurized cab.  For short distances you keep it under vacuum, for longer trips you pressurize it and you can remove the helmet.

With a separate truck, you can have a longer trailer that fits into the Starship.  Really, an airstream shaped trailer would be perfect :-)

With the semi, you could have the same thing, but have a double habitat.  You could probably also haul a drill and a solar rig as a second trailer, so a single truck train could carry a whole base.

[Eka]

Why use trailers? Give them their own drive systems, and have them play follow the leader. Push comes to shove you can cannibalize them to keep your rover going and get home. Keep all the parts as common as possible. That way a wheel set or battery from a trailer can be taken and used on a rover.

edit: Spelling

[Sensei]

Really bad design for an offroad Trailer.  Far to high and narrow. And bad placement of axles 

[lamontagne]

Why use trailers? Give them their own drive systems, and have them play follow the leader. Push comes to shove you can cannibalize them to keep your rover going and get home. Keep all the parts as common as possible. That way a wheel set or battery from a trailer can be taken and used on a rover.

edit: Spelling

A trailer with its own drive system become a truck itself, no?  The interesting thing about a trailer is that it serves as a base camp while needing only a single motor in the hauling vehicle.
I don't think there would be any really practical way to cannibalize a trailer towards a vehicle.  We're talking about batteries that are massed in tonnes, not 12V batteries.
Trailer wheels will only be used for a few hundred kilometers over the lifetime of the vehicle.  Truck wheels will cover orders of magnitude more distances.  It may make sense to optimise them, or it may not.  It depends a lot on how exploration is done, really.  And the actual ruggedness of martian terrain.

[lamontagne]

Really bad design for an offroad Trailer.  Far to high and narrow. And bad placement of axles 

Well, I'm not a professional off road trailer designer     but I'm always willing to learn 

The main constraint of the trailer design is likely to be how to fit it into Starship, not so much how it is operated.  It would be nice to be able to stand up in it as well.  This particular design is build around a rectangular vertical air lock, so that does give it a vertical aspect ratio.
Is this better?

[lamontagne]

I do not see a lot of purpose for a pressured Cybertruck: Then you have a pressured capsule (Suit) in a pressured capsule (CT). Without a Airlock?!

The only two good usecases I could see is:

1. A striped-down CT without a pressured chassy. That would be a Luna Rover on steroids
2. A shuttle-vehicle without airlock for a use without a suit:

You will have a lot of uses where you only want to shuttle some persons or small material between the pressured garage of one Starship to an other Starship garage or the pressured garage of a base. Here you can jump in an CT without a suit, drive out of the vehicle-airlock, down the elevator some kilometers to the the other Starship.

Airlocks are really the exception rather than the rule. The LEM had none, you had to depressurize the entire cabin. A Mars/Luna rated Cybertruck could do the same thing, although of course all interior gear would have to be vacuum rated too.

The LEM was a highly optimised vehicle without an extra kilogram.  Martian exploration material is the SpaceX fuel rich design environment can be much less mass effective, as long as it is quick and rapid to produce.  In that sense whatever is simpler to design would probably be the best.

Elon Musk has hinted that the Cybertruck has some of the characteristics of the James Bond mini submarine.  The main one would be that is is leak proof, but on Mars the pressure direction would be inverted, so perhaps it's not that.
It's pretty clear that Spaceship Mk1 was fitted with Tesla battery packs.  So adapting them to Mars may be a simple exercise.  It's also unlikely that martian rovers will require the full peak power of the packs, so the cooling requirements may be lowered by optimising for long use and lower power levels.

[Steve G]

The Cybertruck is already the ugliest pick-up truck on Earth, and will no doubt be the ugliest truck on any celestial body unfortunate to have its surface desecrated by it.

[AC in NC]

In that sense whatever is simpler to design would probably be the best.

Wouldn't it be the case that "simpler to design" (while I agree vs. weight-optimized) would take a back seat utility, interoperability, and maintainability?

Except perhaps at just the very beginning, I would be surprised to see anything other than very modular (Lego-like) systems of drive elements, power module decks, and chassis.  Maybe I'm jumping too far ahead of the initial missions.

[Eka]

Why use trailers? Give them their own drive systems, and have them play follow the leader. Push comes to shove you can cannibalize them to keep your rover going and get home. Keep all the parts as common as possible. That way a wheel set or battery from a trailer can be taken and used on a rover.

edit: Spelling

A trailer with its own drive system become a truck itself, no?  The interesting thing about a trailer is that it serves as a base camp while needing only a single motor in the hauling vehicle.
I don't think there would be any really practical way to cannibalize a trailer towards a vehicle.  We're talking about batteries that are massed in tonnes, not 12V batteries.
Trailer wheels will only be used for a few hundred kilometers over the lifetime of the vehicle.  Truck wheels will cover orders of magnitude more distances.  It may make sense to optimise them, or it may not.  It depends a lot on how exploration is done, really.  And the actual ruggedness of martian terrain.

So what happens when that single motor dies? Battery pack? Control computer? There is no AAA on Mars. You are most likely on your own. Either you rescue yourself, wait for non experienced rescuers, or die.

I made a comment earlier about gravity and wheel slippage. Lower gravity = less traction = more wheel slippage. Try towing a trailer up a loose regolith slope...

Look up the voltage of a Tesla main drive battery. They are the ones I'm talking about swapping. Go look at the drive units that Tesla puts into their cars. Easily swapped out in their current design.

In that sense whatever is simpler to design would probably be the best.

Wouldn't it be the case that "simpler to design" (while I agree vs. weight-optimized) would take a back seat utility, interoperability, and maintainability?

Except perhaps at just the very beginning, I would be surprised to see anything other than very modular (Lego-like) systems of drive elements, power module decks, and chassis.  Maybe I'm jumping too far ahead of the initial missions.

Ding! Ding! Ding! You got it. Redundancy in everything. BTW modular is KISS too and allows field repairs.

[josephcouvillion]

Electric power allows stuff that was hard to do with ICE.

Would powered wheels in a trailer improve the towing physics enough to be worth the complication? They could be controlled from the truck automatically for optimal improvement of traction and breaking. Any thoughts?

[lamontagne]

Let's try to be a bit systematic.

First, the specs of the cybertruck, (with some comments in brackets):
1 to 3 independent electric motors. (likely the same as model 3, so up to 280+ hp per motor)
2 controllers (from the Tesla autonomous driving presentation)
Batteries for 250 miles (350 km)range (perhaps 80-90 kWh?, 350 to 400V) 
1500 pound (700 kg) payload, 7500 lbs towing (+3000 kg towing)
Official Tesla Mars truck  (from Elon Musk's Twitter feed)
Weight, unknown, should be the same as Ford F150 (1 846 ŕ 2 236 kg, so about 2 tonnes)

For the Tesla Semi:

4 electric motors. (likely the same as model 3, so up to 280+ hp per motor)
2 controllers (from the Tesla autonomous driving presentation)
Batteries for 500 miles range (800 km, likely 4x 100+ kWh independant battery packs)  Megacharger sets have plugs with four sets of contacts, so probably 4 independant power trains)  That's safe.
Haulage : Overall vehicle weight 80 000 lb max us, so perhaps 40 000 pounds + (20 000)
Weight, unknown, class 8 trucks start at 33 000 pounds ( 15 000 kg) including the trailer, so might be about 12000 kg on its own.

So the semi is a whole different class of vehicle, up to six times heavier, but hauling up to six times more mass.  So you could bring six Cybertrucks to Mars for the mass of a single semi.  I think that is the most interesting point, it's a fairly small vehicle, compared to the 100+tonnes payload of the Starship, so can bring quite a few.  This pretty much solves the redundancy question:  You have entirely redundant vehicles, and you do not go more than 150 km away from Starship, unless you install solar chargers and battery packs along the way.

There is absolutely no need for a self moving base if you can fit all you need into a 3 tonne trailer.  Just take two Cybertrucks, if you are worried about failures.  Take two 3 tonne trailers while you're at it, and assemble them at destination.  If one truck fails, they fit six people :-)

Lower gravity = less traction but also = less load, a 3 tonne mass trailer will weigh less, so the result is about the same.  It'll be a pain to corner though, and dangerous at high speed.  I think the angle of repose on Mars is about the same as on Earth.  Going up a sandy hill is a pain anywhere in the solar system.  How loose is martian regolith?  Depends a lot on where you are, doesn't it?  I expect they will be building roads as fast as they can figure out the best way to do so.

Tesla battery packs are not easily swapped out. They require a substantial piece of equipment to do so.  https://electrek.co/2017/09/15/tesla-new-battery-swap-technology-to-deploy-trailer/

So my opinion is that the Cybertruck is relatively small and light, so you can bring more than one and have safety and flexibility in numbers.  They will be ok for the earlier part of the colony, but when serious work will need to be done, they will bring in Mars capable semis and Cybertrucks will have the same support roles they have on Earth.

[Star One]

The Cybertruck is already the ugliest pick-up truck on Earth, and will no doubt be the ugliest truck on any celestial body unfortunate to have its surface desecrated by it.

More fool those who can’t see beyond its external appearance.

As it says in this video its design and build materials significantly decrease production cost, hence the lower asking price. Something I’d argue is way more important than the trivialities of its appearance. It also outlines other positives such as performance and flexibility.

[Asteroza]

Needs a bigger cab for EVA suits.

Counterpressure suits like the MIT design are effectively skintight, so a conventional cab running unpressurized works. Whether you NEED a conventional cab if running unpressurized is up for debate though (dust storms, etc). But unpressurized would also allow running without the cab top, you could run around like an open jeep though. At least you won't have to worry about the windows...

[Asteroza]

I suspect they never tried that test on the actual truck, just drop tests and throws at a separate truck door. The stainless steel body would hold the glass rigidly in place not letting any energy dissipate with movement.
 
The same stainless steel alloy used for Starship.

Apparantly they did test it before though.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1198090787520598016?

Franz throws steel ball at Cybertruck window right before launch. Guess we have some improvements to make before production haha.

Apparently there are allegations the other video may not be equivalent, as the door rebounds somewhat, suggesting it wasn't closed on impact.

[QuantumG]

I'm honestly imagining a small subculture of the 2020s where people live on Earth like they're living on Mars and many of the techniques they experiment with make their way to Mars and (hopefully) are adopted by mainstream society.

I've always wanted my house to be airtight, but what's the value to most people? This became very apparently to me lately when the sky was filled by dust and smoke by fires raging 75 km away. Going outside was an ordeal to my sinuses and I didn't want the same experience sitting at my desk or trying to sleep. (Boo hoo, I know.)

Most people these days drive around with their windows up. In my childhood that was obscene, but now we have aircon. Most trucks (and some cars) can drive through slow moving rivers without issue. That was a specialized thing that no-one needed unless they were going out into the wilds, now it is standard.

Then of course, there's solar panels. We've almost completely adapted to the idea of a decentralized grid - even though few of us can live without the grid right now.

While it seems silly to put an airlock on your house, or wear a space suit to the shops, there's a lot of use that an Earth worm can get from the day-to-day requirements of living on Mars.

[Twark_Main]

...
I've always wanted my house to be airtight, but what's the value to most people? This became very apparently to me lately when the sky was filled by dust and smoke by fires raging 75 km away. Going outside was an ordeal to my sinuses and I didn't want the same experience sitting at my desk or trying to sleep. (Boo hoo, I know.)

...

While it seems silly to put an airlock on your house, or wear a space suit to the shops, there's a lot of use that an Earth worm can get from the day-to-day requirements of living on Mars.

FYI it is possible to have a dust-free and smoke-free house without the considerable expense of making it airtight. Buckminster Fuller used this technique in his Dymaxiom House: air was blown in through a high efficiency filter, creating positive pressure in the house. Any leaks will flow out rather than in, so dusty/smoky outside air can't enter the structure. This is how "clean rooms" work. An inexpensive system can easily be rigged up at home (hint: box fan, filter, cardboard, blue tape, and remember to seal everywhere ).

Ideally you'd have a Tesla Powerwall and solar providing reliable power to run the fan. Or at least a UPS, for protection during the blackouts.

[Eka]

Since EM earlier said "dual motor" I retract my hub motor scheme for a later update.... Although 4 (hub) motors is obviously the correct engineering solution, even if it is using long extensible prop shafts!

Hub motors increases unsprung weight, and that is seriously bad for performance, tires, and rims.

[QuantumG]

Oh yeah, I forgot the biggest one of all:

Convincing people that living underground is fine.

I remember the first time I learnt anyone had a problem with this... it was this weird moment of wait- people- actually- care? Is that why kids are afraid to go into the basement? The fear of descending into the Earth? Is that why Jules Verne was considered blasphemy? Wow!

To a city dweller like me, who grew up in a country town, I'd be as happy to live underground as I would on the 50th floor... Location, Location, Location, I guess. But that's just me. I think there's lots of people who couldn't handle it.

I think this is one of things you just have to leave to economics. Make underground housing and transport cheaper than aboveground and you'll soon have a population willing to pay for it.

TLDR; Boring.

[edzieba]

...
I've always wanted my house to be airtight, but what's the value to most people? This became very apparently to me lately when the sky was filled by dust and smoke by fires raging 75 km away. Going outside was an ordeal to my sinuses and I didn't want the same experience sitting at my desk or trying to sleep. (Boo hoo, I know.)

...

While it seems silly to put an airlock on your house, or wear a space suit to the shops, there's a lot of use that an Earth worm can get from the day-to-day requirements of living on Mars.

FYI it is possible to have a dust-free and smoke-free house without the considerable expense of making it airtight. Buckminster Fuller used this technique in his Dymaxiom House: air was blown in through a high efficiency filter, creating positive pressure in the house. Any leaks will flow out rather than in, so dusty/smoky outside air can't enter the structure. This is how "clean rooms" work. An inexpensive system can easily be rigged up at home (hint: box fan, filter, cardboard, blue tape, and remember to seal everywhere ).

Ideally you'd have a Tesla Powerwall and solar providing reliable power to run the fan. Or at least a UPS, for protection during the blackouts.

Positive pressure and extremely low leakage are already requirements for high efficiency (AKA 'eco friendly') house building, and testing maximum leakage per unit external surface area is part of the building regulations for many countries (and some optional certifications, e.g. 1m^3 per m^2 per hour for PassivHaus).

[Lar]

The Cybertruck is already the ugliest pick-up truck on Earth, and will no doubt be the ugliest truck on any celestial body unfortunate to have its surface desecrated by it.

Well, that's just like, your opinion, man. [1]

I would say this, it's also quite likely to be the most beautiful truck on many celestial bodies for quite a while. I expect SpaceX to exceed NASA at expansion rate to other useful places.


1 - I am an ordained minister in the Church of the Latter Day Dude so I can say that.

[raketa]

The Cybertruck is already the ugliest pick-up truck on Earth, and will no doubt be the ugliest truck on any celestial body unfortunate to have its surface desecrated by it.

Well, that's just like, your opinion, man. [1]

I would say this, it's also quite likely to be the most beautiful truck on many celestial bodies for quite a while. I expect SpaceX to exceed NASA at expansion rate to other useful places.


1 - I am an ordained minister in the Church of the Latter Day Dude so I can say that.

All trucks.  are ugly. This one at least is crazy interesting. The is shape as close to airplane wing. Will be surprisingly aerodynamic. I am considering buy just to stand up in crowd and also knowing that very similar vehicles are roaming surface of Mars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[geza]

When somebody objected the name "Starship" on Twitter, saying that it would not fly interstellar, Elon's response was that a later iteration would. So the Mars iteration of Cypertruck could be as different from the current one, than the intersteller SpaceX Starship will differ from the Martian one :-).

Seriously, it is obvious that SpeceX will rely on Tesla' technology, as much as possible. We do not know, but I feel quite likely that these applications are in their mind from the beginning in any Tesla development. The Tesla design studio is located at SpaceX campus in Hawthorne, after all. Why? We have learnt about the Tesla battery in Mk1 and that the control surfaces of Starship will be moved by Tesla electric motors. This mean that they are alerady studying the thermal problem related to the off-Earth application. 

I don't think, that the characteristic shape of Cybertruck will survive for Mars. If you want a pressurized rover, then you want a higher pressurized volume, where you can doff the pressure suit conveniently, where you can eat, sleep and go to toilett. You want an airlock, or suit ports, or both. For shorter trips, after which you go back to the hab to eat, an unpressurized ATV is much better. (There is no whether there.) So, Martian conversion of the newly unveiled Tesla ATV is also an interesting possibility.

The point is that transiting between pressurized and unpressurized spaces is much more complicated and time consuming, than sitting into a car here on Earth. So, you probably dont want a pressurized cabin for a van, or a crane. You need a pressurized rover only for multi-day traverses. A van can work autonomously, or you can control it from your hab (pressurized rover), or sit on an unpressurized seat on it.

I expect a Tesla-developed universal Martian undercarry, which can be completed to different purposes by a hab, or an equipment.

[Lar]

I expect a Tesla-developed universal Martian undercarry, which can be completed to different purposes by a hab, or an equipment.

Lamontagne has done a fair bit of that envisioning already in various threads. I'm inclined to agree that the Semi will see this but the Cybertruck is unibody. So a skate is harder to do ....

[Eka]

I expect a Tesla-developed universal Martian undercarry, which can be completed to different purposes by a hab, or an equipment.

Lamontagne has done a fair bit of that envisioning already in various threads. I'm inclined to agree that the Semi will see this but the Cybertruck is unibody. So a skate is harder to do ....

Yeah, the unibody makes a skateboard impossible. I prefer using a variant of the semi. Motive units mount to the bottom of the rails. Batteries hang off the rail sides or hang between the rails. Cabs, habitat bodies, flat beds, telehandlers, etc mount to the top of the rails. I envision the rails having sets of holes for mounting motive units and batteries. Motive units mount to two to three sets while batteries mount to one set. This way it can easily be reconfigured for new uses, heavier loads, or greater redundancy.

[rakaydos]

Cybertruck, but with 4 suitports instead of doors (including a footrail to keep the suits from dragging their feet as you drive)

[edzieba]

How modifiable Cybertruck is depends on the as yet unseen internal assembly of internal components onto the inside of the shell (the main structural element). If those components are sufficiently modular - e.g. if they are elements connected with power cables & a shared bus rather than all point-to-point links and rigid mechanical connections - then 'refolding' a larger shell and attaching the same components to then inside could be a viable method of making a Marstruck with a larger internal volume and greater surface area (for e.g. suitports or airlocks).

[docmordrid]

How modifiable Cybertruck is depends on the as yet unseen internal assembly of internal components onto the inside of the shell (the main structural element). If those components are sufficiently modular - e.g. if they are elements connected with power cables & a shared bus rather than all point-to-point links and rigid mechanical connections - then 'refolding' a larger shell and attaching the same components to then inside could be a viable method of making a Marstruck with a larger internal volume and greater surface area (for e.g. suitports or airlocks).

Tesla is much like SpaceX in terms of iteration. In Model S the harness was 3 km, in Model 3 that's down to 1.5 km, and in the upcoming Model Y Crossover SUV its down to just 100m. This is accomplished by using a patented  "hard" perimeter bus installable by robots.

I cannot imagine them backsliding to a "birds nest" harness for Cybertruck.

Patentscope...

“Traditional car wiring for vehicles are piecemeal solutions. Typically, there are different wiring harnesses that connect each different electrical component to a central battery or power source. Each component receives power, but requires multiple wiring harnesses for communication and signals. The total length of the wire may be many miles within a single vehicle. These wiring harnesses typically consist of multiple round conductors that are not rigid. Round conductors are not optimal for transmitting current and the lack of rigidity of traditional wiring harnesses requires assembly into the vehicle using human hands, which can be a slow process. Further, connecting each component to the central battery is not optimized on an automobile level.”

[DistantTemple]

Once they have worked out/decided, how each item will be addressed, and how to add the decoder module to it then the whole system is portable to any similar variant, and with only a little work to any other (new) vehicle.
In fact it makes it extremely easy to design wiring for a new vehicle.
It should be vastly easier to send more data both ways over the "instruction bus", so as well as switching items like lights, there could easily be multiple sensors, for fault finding, bulb health... temperature... and the ability to add many more  on future models.

As well as saving wiring, it also massively simplifies wiring, so there is unlikely to be a faulty wire hidden in the harness where it enters the rear hatch, or slides under a carpet. There will likely be less chance of a crucial multi-way connector under the carpet just where rain gets in from a poor door seal!!!

It will be much more robust in the long run without the complication and weak points, and more reparable. In an older car a damaged traditional loom can be uneconomic to fix.

[Ludus]

Oh yeah, I forgot the biggest one of all:

Convincing people that living underground is fine.

I remember the first time I learnt anyone had a problem with this... it was this weird moment of wait- people- actually- care? Is that why kids are afraid to go into the basement? The fear of descending into the Earth? Is that why Jules Verne was considered blasphemy? Wow!

To a city dweller like me, who grew up in a country town, I'd be as happy to live underground as I would on the 50th floor... Location, Location, Location, I guess. But that's just me. I think there's lots of people who couldn't handle it.

I think this is one of things you just have to leave to economics. Make underground housing and transport cheaper than aboveground and you'll soon have a population willing to pay for it.

TLDR; Boring.

Mars will be the greatest reality TV/Social Media franchise on Earth. It makes complete sense that a Mars emulation culture will grow up around that.

[Lar]

Let's not dig too deep into Tesla wiring harness tech unless you make a clear tie in to the topic.

[QuantumG]

Mars will be the greatest reality TV/Social Media franchise on Earth. It makes complete sense that a Mars emulation culture will grow up around that.

Self-training for migration.

[docmordrid]

Thereby instigating the Morlock Culture...😉

[lamontagne]

Thereby instigating the Morlock Culture...😉

You know, i'd rather be a Morlock than an Eloi...

Why are some people so certain an astronaut with a backpack couldn't fit in a Cybertruck?  Would be an awfully easy thing to try, after all, for once the thing actually exists....

[docmordrid]

Thereby instigating the Morlock Culture...😉

You know, i'd rather be a Morlock than an Eloi...

Why are some people so certain an astronaut with a backpack couldn't fit in a Cybertruck?  Would be an awfully easy thing to try, after all, for once the thing actually exists....

If all they need is to get from habitat to a vehicle with an ECLSS, why couldn't there be a small hand-carried suit unit?

[lamontagne]

Thereby instigating the Morlock Culture...😉

You know, i'd rather be a Morlock than an Eloi...

Why are some people so certain an astronaut with a backpack couldn't fit in a Cybertruck?  Would be an awfully easy thing to try, after all, for once the thing actually exists....

If all they need is to get from habitat to a vehicle with an ECLSS, why couldn't there be a small hand-carried suit unit?

Why not indeed?  I guess it really depends on what you will be doing with the vehicle, and if the Astronaut needs to move around at target.  And how bad of a problem is martian dust.
The Cybertruck without the doors might look pretty awesome.  You really don't need it to be pressurized if you have a spacesuit.

[geza]

If the main point here is the FuturoCyber coolness of the current design of the Earthly edition, then we can trust Elon Musk & Franz von Holzhausen to replicate that coolness somehow for further editions, including the Martian one with a larger pressurized volume.

From a more utilitarian point of view, the real issue is the concept of operation on the Martian surface. EVA is a trivial thing only in the movies, even half-century after the first Lunar EVA. As far as I know, MCP is very-very far from the first human vacuum chamber test. Suit port seems more reachable, but it keeps the inconvenience of a traditional pressure suit and requires rover to operate at suit-pressure. Etc.

Will surface work be an Apollo-type EVA, with people in pressure suits imitating Earthly activity in a hard way? Or, will they do almost everything from the shirtsleeve environment of a pressurized rover, like research submersibles operate? Or, from their base habitat, telerobotically? For zero-gee envireonments there are suggestions for equipments between a suit and a vechicle. Is something, like this, possible for Martian use?

Decide the nature of surface activity first. Then, design CyberTruck v. Martian accordingly.

[QuantumG]

Mars atmosphere actually makes a /huge/ difference on suit mobility.

[geza]

Mars atmosphere actually makes a /huge/ difference on suit mobility.

Why?

[RonM]

Mars atmosphere actually makes a /huge/ difference on suit mobility.

Why?

You don't need a thick thermal micrometeoriod garment because the atmosphere stops micrometeorites and temperature range is not as extreme. Movement will be easier with less layers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_Micrometeoroid_Garment

[obi-wan]

Mars atmosphere actually makes a /huge/ difference on suit mobility.

Why?

You don't need a thick thermal micrometeoriod garment because the atmosphere stops micrometeorites and temperature range is not as extreme. Movement will be easier with less layers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_Micrometeoroid_Garment

From a physiological point of view Mars atmosphere might as well be a hard vacuum - it's less than 0.1psia, so there's no noticeable difference in pressure differential across the suit. There is just enough atmosphere to make things more complicated - sublimators will not work for cooling, and multi-layer insulation won't work because of convection between layers. We'll have to go with some other form of insulation that may well be bulkier than MLI.

[RoboGoofers]

Moving around in full winter garb is pretty restrictive, too. certainly not as bad as a spacesuit, but getting into and out of a truck still when it's -20 is more cumbersome than in tshirt weather. And when you sit down those seats are cold!

cybertruck would have to be a two-seater t-top if you wanted suited people in it.

[meekGee]

Mars atmosphere actually makes a /huge/ difference on suit mobility.

Why?

You don't need a thick thermal micrometeoriod garment because the atmosphere stops micrometeorites and temperature range is not as extreme. Movement will be easier with less layers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_Micrometeoroid_Garment

From a physiological point of view Mars atmosphere might as well be a hard vacuum - it's less than 0.1psia, so there's no noticeable difference in pressure differential across the suit. There is just enough atmosphere to make things more complicated - sublimators will not work for cooling, and multi-layer insulation won't work because of convection between layers. We'll have to go with some other form of insulation that may well be bulkier than MLI.

I don't think the conclusion is correct.

Since the temperature differences are much lower (no direct solar radiation, no zero K sky) regular insulation will work just fine, especially since, as you note, ambient pressure is really low.

Delta P across the suit is pretty much the same, agreed, but as QG pointed out, no MMOD shielding, which is a bigger deal.

The low pressure is enough to prevent sublimation (as you point out) which means lubricants and sealants work - so sealing is a lot easier.

Compared to lunar environment, the dust is a lot more benign since it's wind-eroded.

Overall, among space, lunar, and Mars suits, the Martian one is the easiest and lightest. (Least massive!)

[catiare]

Apologies for Necroposting but what y'all think of this SEMI-HOME concept as an off-the-shelf template for Moon/Mars rover?

Source: https://vanlifer.com/blogs/news/tesla-semi-campervan-concept-introducing-the-vanlifer-semi-home

[TomH]

Well, since this thread has recently been resurrected from the archives: I know what Elon has said about using the Tesla truck on Luna and Mars. In reading through the thread, several thoughts came to mind.

-Regolith, especially lunar, is difficult to deal with. So many moving parts are vulnerable to contamination and seizing.

-Tracked vehicles with wide wheel base and low Center of Mass lends to better traction and lower likelihood of roll-over.

-Roll over can still happen. Roll-cages are imperative. When you do roll over (any of you who owns a tractor knows how unsettling it is even with a roll cage) you have to find an even bigger vehicle to turn you back upright.

-Track Loaders (aka tracked skid steers) can utilize numerous attachments (many PTO powered) mounted at a common attachment point. Studying them can offer analogous lessons.

-Bespoke offroad motorhomes can offer analogous lessons.

-Antarctic expeditions via modified snow-cats can offer analogous lessons.

All of these photos offer (mostly) self-explanatory ideas that could be helpful in designing Lunar/Martian vehicles: