SpaceX Mars/Moon rover

[Vrommand]

The last months, we've seen a lot of teasers by Elon about Tesla's cybertruck (almost bulletproof, military APC, towing capacity ... )
I don't know but i have like the feeling this vehicle could be the foundation for a SpaceX Mars/Moon rover, specially the unveiling is at SpaceX HQ and it's like a super-secret vehicle (model Y and the semi-truck are open visible on the road)

When the time comes that Starship must be refueled on mars, they will need huge amounts of regolit. This could imo the workhorse for handling this job.
Some kind of SpaceX's multi-platform rover (like NASA had experimented with ATHLETE).

First post and not native english

[Eer]

Welcome to the forum! Your English is fine.

[baldusi]

I don't know about Tesla, but I do remember a comment from a few years back that SpaceX had to design everything to be Mars certificable.

[CuddlyRocket]

... we've seen a lot of teasers by Elon about Tesla's cybertruck (almost bulletproof, military APC, towing capacity ... )
I don't know but i have like the feeling this vehicle could be the foundation for a SpaceX Mars/Moon rover ...

Even without much in the way of modification, I think a Tesla truck would have a reasonable shot at breaking the distance record for a lunar rover (Lunokhod 2, 24 miles/39 km, 1973); perhaps even dropping off a science package every mile or so! It might even pass Opportunity's 26.2 miles all-time extra-terrestrial rover record. And be a damn sight cheaper than either to boot!

[Eka]

Tesla Trucks with space suit ready cabs called the Rover Base. Common base with dual or multi person cab. Base can be outfitted with 2 or more wheel pairs depending on needs. Versions with:
- telehandler boom with automated quick attach. Attachments include, but are not limited to: Forklift forks, payloader buckets, bulldozer blades, augers, small & medium & large object gripers, jackhammer heads, cable trencher/layer, arc welder head, and even NASA Science Modules. The telehandler boom is a cross between a tractor loader arm, and telehandler boom. It can dig like a tractor loader can, and it can do materials moving and placement like a telehandler can. Even high up. Heavy stuff like plants and plant sections may take coordination between two or more telehandler rovers to move and place.
- Dump bed with drop sides. Dump truck for moving bulk regolith over longer distances. When sides are dropped it can haul cargo from landing site to habitat and work areas.
- Exploration Habitat Box (Known as the RV) (Has mini version of Comms Power Tower) Solar array is for recharging the rover and habitat power when stopped on extended trips.
Because all the rover versions have Tesla electronic control systems, they are all self driving, and just need more programming to do special operations and coordinate their work. As a few rovers are digging a habitat trench or ice mine pit, one carrying a NASA Science Module can analyze and sample collect the trench surfaces as they are exposed. I also can see cabless versions of the telehandler and dump truck rovers, but having all those cabs around provides many spots to get out of the vacuum in an emergency.

Comms Power Towers. Small, Medium, and Large. Each one has:
- Space ready Powerwall in base.
- Supercharger ports with auto hookup charge cables.
- High power high speed optical communications link to talk to Earth orbiting satellite network.
- High speed optical communications links to talk to neighboring Comms and Power Towers.
- 3G/4G/5G cell tower for talking to Rovers, astronauts, and whatever else needs it.
- Self deploying solar array able to track the sun, Polar, mid latitude and equatorial styles.
- All are made with all functions so they can be part of a redundant network. If a link to earth fails, then another can take it's place. If more bandwidth is needed, multiple links can be used.
- The Comms Power Tower is also able to be used as a communications and power module for a plant or habitat. I'm thinking the large ones would be the size of an inter-modal shipping container, small 1/4th that size.
- Payloader bucket can be used to smooth and level pads for them. They can be moved into place with the telehandler. Once in place they spread their legs, deploy their solar array, and raise their cell tower. Rovers can automatically recharge at them because they can auto hookup.

[Mandella]

Yeah all things considered I would find it very hard to believe that a joint SpaceX/Tesla team was *not* putting together a Lunar/Mars rover. And while I don't *know* they are doing it under cover of their truck project, I would not be surprised at seeing the projected rover unveiled as a "surprise" during the truck reveal.

As an aside, I'm really hoping that truck is within my price range and doesn't look *too* weird -- I'd love to go electric and still be able to haul things around.

[guckyfan]

I don't know about Tesla, but I do remember a comment from a few years back that SpaceX had to design everything to be Mars certificable.

I remember they said with every decision they checked if it helps Mars. Not that the variant that helps Mars would always win

[Cheapchips]

One confirmed feature of the Tesla truck that'll be incredibly useful on Moon /Mars is the ability to run 240V powertools all day.

[nacnud]

...specially the unveiling is at SpaceX HQ...

The unveiling is next to SpaceX HQ because that is where the Tesla Design Centre is. The Tesla Semi and Roadster 2 were also unveiled there.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tesla+Design+Center/@33.9214208,-118.3298223,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xe55a00440a7d41ed!8m2!3d33.9214208!4d-118.3298223

[Eka]

The more and more I think about it rovers will need to be big and wide. Wide for stability. Big so they can carry a proper load and have space for an airlock. For the first few synods handling most stuff by the pallet will work, but after that an IMC is the smallest one will want to pick off a SS/SS18. And thus transport rovers will need to handle a multiple of that size. It is a simple matter of freight throughput.

The first rovers can be standard truck width, but shortly there will be need for large ones. Additionally the mining operations will want big. Just look at current mining trucks.

Additionally any ISRU operation will need to shift lots of dirt

IMC = Intermodal Container. 10'/20'/40' long, 8' wide, 8.5;' tall.

[DistantTemple]

So some blade runner / Mars suitable ideas, (quite mad and no hint from EM or SX that these could be included):

1. Suspension that changes geometry with at least "air" suspension that can be set at an enormous "off road" setting through normal, to extreme low "race" or "freeway" setting.

1a. Suspension moves the wheels OUT SIDEWAYS to make a wider stable "super off road" setting. Possibly adapting 1. to keep the body closer to horizontal when sideways on a steep slope.

2. 4 Wheel steering. With seamless control !

3. A motor in each wheel. This is the biggest change as it means that the existing S, X, and 3 powertrains cannot be used! But would really enable more freedom to do the above items.

4. Pretty enormous tyres like 36" dia or more. And quite wide, allowing each motor to be within the hub area and not protrude wider than the tyre.

5. The basic frame of the vehicle to continue to be some kind of "skateboard" to enable future use for a range of vehicles, including vans, trucks, and mini-busses etc. both on and off-world.

6. All parts at risk from vacuum and/or extreme (space) cold/heat to be either already prepared for this, or have a planned upgrade path for this - for off-world use.

7. The rear section will have some kind of fold up rigid cover to provide aerodynamics, and security. This could include the sides of the "bed" being much lower (this conflicts with big wheels)

8. The doors may have a 2-degrees of freedom, hinging both out and up, depending on sensed obstacles. When closed a clamp will pull the opening edge in to make a secure pressure (and water) seal.

9. An egress panel in the roof will be used in flood etc. So the vehicle will be impervious to flooding, and will be able to "drive" in water by tucking its wheels into the "highway" setting. (A water jet(s) will be a later option)

10. It will be possible to relocate (or duplicate) the driving position to a seat that lifts out of the open roof!

EM did say "Bladerunner". I'm thinking slightly mad max! However slightly "transformers" seems relevant. How can the Cybertruck, be several such different vehicles all at once? Well by transforming! Electric motors allow what could only be done at slower speeds with hydraulics previously. Tesla has developed several motors already, and a serious hub motor will be needed for multi-wheel transporters on Mars, similar to "Roll-Lift" but for moving large (but lighter)  equipment and HABS, over rougher terrain.

Future options include a 6 and 8 wheeled version. The hub motors and all wheel steering make this increase modular, and technically easier, if expensive. This tends toward the "Armadillo" in Armageddon, and paves the way for such a space vehicle-cum-mobileHAB for planetoid and asteroid exploration as well as Mars deep exploration.

A wide base is stable, but illegal on roads. Therefore transforming the wheelbase width is needed. This pretty much requires independent hub motors. Once you have hub motors, 4 wheel steering is easier. It even allows absolutely crazy rock climbing - which in the future will be controlled by the vehicle's AI ! Even almost "walking" by independently adjusting each wheel's position with the brakes locked!

The width can have software locks for legal road use in various jurisdictions.

[DistantTemple]

The traditional front crumple zone will be carefully designed "crush core" structures, to protect against a moderate collision without writing off the whole vehicle.

[Cheapchips]

So some blade runner / Mars suitable ideas, (quite mad and no hint from EM or SX that these could be included):

1. Suspension that changes geometry with at least "air" suspension that can be set at an enormous "off road" setting through normal, to extreme low "race" or "freeway" setting.

1a. Suspension moves the wheels OUT SIDEWAYS to make a wider stable "super off road" setting. Possibly adapting 1. to keep the body closer to horizontal when sideways on a steep slope.

2. 4 Wheel steering. With seamless control !

3. A motor in each wheel. This is the biggest change as it means that the existing S, X, and 3 powertrains cannot be used! But would really enable more freedom to do the above items.

4. Pretty enormous tyres like 36" dia or more. And quite wide, allowing each motor to be within the hub area and not protrude wider than the tyre.

5. The basic frame of the vehicle to continue to be some kind of "skateboard" to enable future use for a range of vehicles, including vans, trucks, and mini-busses etc. both on and off-world.

6. All parts at risk from vacuum and/or extreme (space) cold/heat to be either already prepared for this, or have a planned upgrade path for this - for off-world use.

7. The rear section will have some kind of fold up rigid cover to provide aerodynamics, and security. This could include the sides of the "bed" being much lower (this conflicts with big wheels)

8. The doors may have a 2-degrees of freedom, hinging both out and up, depending on sensed obstacles. When closed a clamp will pull the opening edge in to make a secure pressure (and water) seal.

9. An egress panel in the roof will be used in flood etc. So the vehicle will be impervious to flooding, and will be able to "drive" in water by tucking its wheels into the "highway" setting. (A water jet(s) will be a later option)

10. It will be possible to relocate (or duplicate) the driving position to a seat that lifts out of the open roof!

EM did say "Bladerunner". I'm thinking slightly mad max! However slightly "transformers" seems relevant. How can the Cybertruck, be several such different vehicles all at once? Well by transforming! Electric motors allow what could only be done at slower speeds with hydraulics previously. Tesla has developed several motors already, and a serious hub motor will be needed for multi-wheel transporters on Mars, similar to "Roll-Lift" but for moving large (but lighter)  equipment and HABS, over rougher terrain.

Future options include a 6 and 8 wheeled version. The hub motors and all wheel steering make this increase modular, and technically easier, if expensive. This tends toward the "Armadillo" in Armageddon, and paves the way for such a space vehicle-cum-mobileHAB for planetoid and asteroid exploration as well as Mars deep exploration.

A wide base is stable, but illegal on roads. Therefore transforming the wheelbase width is needed. This pretty much requires independent hub motors. Once you have hub motors, 4 wheel steering is easier. It even allows absolutely crazy rock climbing - which in the future will be controlled by the vehicle's AI ! Even almost "walking" by independently adjusting each wheel's position with the brakes locked!

The width can have software locks for legal road use in various jurisdictions.

The Rivian truck uses torque steering, since that's easy to do with four motors.  I'd expect the Tesla truck / Mars rover to do the same since the Semi uses torque steering to avoid jackknifing.  Seems mechanically simpler to my none engineer mind than hub motors.

The Tesla truck might not be based of the Semi but Musk was certainly suggesting that during the Semi announcement.  It would mean that it departs from the skate layout.  The Semi has two hefty bars as a pulling chassis. The motors are mounted between these. The battery packs run width wise across the top.  Suppose that's still a kind of skate, just a high-rise one. 

[docmordrid]

>
The Rivian truck uses torque steering, since that's easy to do with four motors.  I'd expect the Tesla truck / Mars rover to do the same since the Semi uses torque steering to avoid jackknifing.  Seems mechanically simpler to my none engineer mind than hub motors.
>

OTOH, the Lordstown Motors Endurance pickup will use hub motors.  They recently bought GM's massive Lordstown plant. Run by Tesla alumnus Rich Schmidt.

As DistantTemple noted, they can be put on outriggers which can help with stowage for transport and with enabling variable geometry.

[lamontagne]

Tesla semi truck base frame model.
There are two version of the semi, with capacity up to 1000 km of range.
This is based on the published information I could find.  For the 300 miles (480 km) version, the expected mass of the overall vehicle is 25000 pounds (11 000 kg) for the semi truck.  Of this, about 5-6000 kg is the batteries. The truck uses 4 model 3 electric engines for a total power of over 1000 hp ( 750 kW).
Pneumatic suspension.
There would be 4 batteries, at 250 kWh each, so 1000 kWh of energy capacity.
The structure is 7m long, so it fits nicely in a Starship cargo hold.

I've substituted double steel wire wheels for the rear axle drives, as compared to the 2 wide tire wheels used on Earth. But since this vehicles works during the day, and can be stored in a garage at night, I wonder if standard tires might not be used instead for most application?  There is no reason to leave this vehicle out in the Martian winter, except for an exploration version.  The pneumatic suspension would be covered with flexible heat insulation, and have a heat source inside.

This can serve as a basis for any number of Mars exploration and utility vehicle and variations.  Actually, it's probably much too powerful for most applications, so I'm mostly going to be working with a lower capacity version with just two axles and probably only 500 kWh of battery and 2 motors.  This would still have 500 hp of motor but would mass about 3000 kg less.  The basic frame would be 1,2m shorter.

Heating the cabin might require a few 2-5? kW at night, less during the day, if any.  Battery cooling might supply some of this during vehicle movement.

Wonder what the range might be?

The other option is building up from what will be the truck base.  This might be appropriate for smaller vehicles, or if the base is mass constrained.  There are a number of posts on this subject here:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32636.msg1086383#msg1086383

The images show both a short cab and a longer cab.  The short cab may not be the best solution.

[yoram]

There's also an older thread on this topic:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46281.msg1852270#msg1852270

[DistantTemple]

>
The Rivian truck uses torque steering, since that's easy to do with four motors.  I'd expect the Tesla truck / Mars rover to do the same since the Semi uses torque steering to avoid jackknifing.  Seems mechanically simpler to my none engineer mind than hub motors.
>

OTOH, the Lordstown Motors Endurance pickup will use hub motors.  They recently bought GM's massive Lordstown plant. Run by Tesla alumnus Rich Schmidt.

As DistantTemple noted, they can be put on outriggers which can help with stowage for transport and with enabling variable geometry.

Yes I agree torque steering will be a natural part of the stability and roadholding control particularly useful for high speed on unstable surfaces like gravel, ice, sand, etc. However 4 motors whether in the hub or at the end of an axle can provide this. However with hub motors it is easier to have the wheel steer, as there is no axle, and very much easier to have extreme suspension, as there is no axle that has to accommodate changing angle and LENGTH. Changing geometry, such as widening the wheelbase requires the motor to follow the wheel - unless the axle can lengthen greatly!

The Rivan has its motors mounted in the body: https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/27/rivian-debuts-an-electric-pickup-and-suv-designed-to-look-good-while-getting-dirty/   
 EM is positioning the Cybertruck as exceptionally "out there" in a sci-fi/tec/space kind of way. Rivan is not. Rivan is a standard truck clone, but electric, with excellent performance. Rivan doesn't need hub motors, it will not drag mining equipment or HABs around ice quarries on Mars!

There are some wild vehicles on YouTube fording rivers in Siberia etc. Expect the Cybertruck to compere with these!
 Mad Idea 11: Armoured somewhat v shaped hull - Means its water capabilities become a functional fast boat,  and the armour will allow some moderate IED explosion resistance, as well as random groundings and loose road debris impacts.

I bet military sales will be impressive. Other military suppliers charge high prices! Will Tesla make a vehicle to replace the Humvee, the jeep, and Land-rover, and even a light APC out of the CyberTruck?

[DistantTemple]

Love your renders lamontagne.
However your trucks are all based on a "lorry" base, more like the "semi" that is suitable for a somewhat prepared or graded surface.

The CyberTruck I suggest will positioned to cope with extreme off-road, and on Mars will be much more capable as an exploration vehicle. And on earth: off road. If EM tries to be the very best, then its off road will be extreme! Yet It is still supposed to be a truck, and super fast!. Lets face it most purchasers will need it to lug their welding or building gear around, and bikes at the weekend. However if it will go where all other trucks fail, then there will be a big market!

[Cheapchips]

Elite Dangerous has a fun concept for a hub motor 'go anywhere' scout vehicle.  The wheels tuck in for transport.

It's a hoot to drive around. Obviously a bit gamey given the source but it has directional thrusters that allow hops and pin it down on lower gravity moons.

[lamontagne]

Love your renders lamontagne.
However your trucks are all based on a "lorry" base, more like the "semi" that is suitable for a somewhat prepared or graded surface.

The CyberTruck I suggest will positioned to cope with extreme off-road, and on Mars will be much more capable as an exploration vehicle. And on earth: off road. If EM tries to be the very best, then its off road will be extreme! Yet It is still supposed to be a truck, and super fast!. Lets face it most purchasers will need it to lug their welding or building gear around, and bikes at the weekend. However if it will go where all other trucks fail, then there will be a big market!

Guess it depends on what is the ultimate objective, explore impossible areas or set up a practical Mars base.  But I agree my designs are for fairly tame exploration vehicles.  My favorite real world machine for real useful exploration has always been the Timberjack.  But there aren't very many forest on Mars so it maybe a bit overkill ;-)